Gods unconditional election

[Heneni]

The bible from the OT times shows that god unconditionally elects a people for himself. He does this election not because of anything they did to deserve it, but simply to show his freedom to elect.

Whenever the bible talks about election, you will find phrases like, '' I knew you'', ''predestined'', ''elected'', ''chose'', ''called out of'', ''separated''

In the case of Abraham, who was initially an idolater.

''You fathers lived of old beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor, and they served other gods. Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the river and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many''

This ''taking'' of Abraham is election.

When god says he knows someone it also means he has elected them. God said:

'' Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?'' and he answers himself by saying ''No, for I have known him''

That does not mean that god is ignorant of everybody else on the planet it means that god has placed his special attention on Abraham.

Whoever god chooses or elects god gives birth to. He gave birth to the Israeli nation:

''Thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob he who FORMED you, O Israel''

In Isaiah 43 he says ''I am the lord, your holy one, the creator of Israel''

Moses calls them a chosen people.

Deut 14:1

''You are a people holy (meaning set apart) and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his own possession out of all the peoples on the face of the earth''

And god confirms Israel as his special nation by saying this to pharaoh

''Israel is my firstborn son, and I say to you, let my son go that he may serve me''

Why did god do this? Why did he elect/choose Israel as his special nation?

Deut 4:37
''Because he loved your fathers (Abraham) and chose their descendants after them''

The whole universe belongs to god, so god is not hedged in by a group of people. God did not elect Israel to demonstrate to pharaoh that he is another god in the universe and that the Israelites are his people and he has only rights to them. He has rights to everything, yet he delighted in loving Abraham and in loving Abraham he delighted to choose/elect/birth a nation that would make a name for himself on earth in and amongst the Egyptians and the rest of the world.

But just to show that god is not hedged in, boxed in by choosing Israel as a nation, he goes further and elects out of Israel a group of people.

Isaac and Ishmael were both sons of Abraham, but god elected Isaac, not Ishmael to make a name for himself. Both Esau and Jacob were born from Isaac’s seed, and yet god only chooses Jacob. And Jacob was the least likely candidate for election. His name means deceiver. He didn’t get chosen because he was in any way deserving of it, god chose him because he delights in his freedom to elect.

God is absolutely sovereign when it comes to who he elects, and he shows this by unconditional election. None of the people god chose had any merit to be chosen, it was completely unconditional.

Is there any indication that god has continued this trend in the NT? If so, who are the people god has elected?

 

[Mr Cheese]

At best these ideas allow us to examine people who are holy, irrespective of religion, race or feet size

At worst these ideas and others liek them allow for wonderful things like Nazism.

Interpretation is everything

 

[Heneni]

At best these ideas allow us to examine people who are holy, irrespective of religion, race or feet size

At worst these ideas and others liek them allow for wonderful things like Nazism.

Interpretation is everything

Is there a question in there somewhere? Because unless you are a christian and want to learn more about my faith, or ask me questions about what i have said here and we can discuss it, from a christian point of view, using the bible as at least the highest standard that you consider to be truth, mixed with the enlightenment of the HS, you dont have much you can contribute then.

Heneni

 

[Mr Cheese]

Is there a question in there somewhere? Because unless you are a christian and want to learn more about my faith, or ask me questions about what i have said here and we can discuss it, from a christian point of view, using the bible as at least the highest standard that you consider to be truth, mixed with the enlightenment of the HS, you dont have much you can contribute then.

Heneni

There is more to God and more to Christianity than a bad translated version of the bible.....

but whatever floats your boat.

Jesus said, "If a blind man leads a blind man, they will both fall into a pit."

 

[Heneni]

There is more to God and more to Christianity than a bad translated version of the bible.....

but whatever floats your boat.

Jesus said, "If a blind man leads a blind man, they will both fall into a pit."

And again, this notion that there must be 'more out there' is false and leads to speculation and no real roots.

There is more wisdom in the bible than most man can live by. We dont need to look elsewhere before we have come to grips with what is in it already.

Please remember that this thread title has nothing to do with what you are spewing out here....so take that into consideration and dont be 'blind'.

Thanks again
Heneni

 

[Mr Cheese]

And again, this notion that there must be 'more out there' is false and leads to speculation and no real roots.

There is more wisdom in the bible than most man can live by. We dont need to look elsewhere before we have come to grips with what is in it already.

Please remember that this thread title has nothing to do with what you are spewing out here....so take that into consideration and dont be 'blind'.

Thanks again
Heneni

How can God be contained in one book?

 

[Heneni]

How can God be contained in one book?

Start a thread about it.:slap:

 

[Father Heathen]

People who see the bible as the only source of wisdom in the world tend not to be very wise.

 

[Mr Cheese]

People who see the bible as the only source of wisdom in the world tend not to be very wise.

or any ONE book....

:sarcasticIts like using a book on crop rotation to cook omlettes

 

[Quagmire]

***Mod Post***

Although the title doesn't specify, the Soteriology forum is a subforum of the Christian DIR forum, and the same rules apply; if you do not identify as Christian, please limit you posts to respectful questions.
​

 

[Christless Christianity]

The bible from the OT times shows that god unconditionally elects a people for himself. He does this election not because of anything they did to deserve it, but simply to show his freedom to elect.

Whenever the bible talks about election, you will find phrases like, '' I knew you'', ''predestined'', ''elected'', ''chose'', ''called out of'', ''separated''

In the case of Abraham, who was initially an idolater.

''You fathers lived of old beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor, and they served other gods. Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the river and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many''

This ''taking'' of Abraham is election.

When god says he knows someone it also means he has elected them. God said:

'' Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?'' and he answers himself by saying ''No, for I have known him''

That does not mean that god is ignorant of everybody else on the planet it means that god has placed his special attention on Abraham.

Whoever god chooses or elects god gives birth to. He gave birth to the Israeli nation:

''Thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob he who FORMED you, O Israel''

In Isaiah 43 he says ''I am the lord, your holy one, the creator of Israel''

Moses calls them a chosen people.

Deut 14:1

''You are a people holy (meaning set apart) and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his own possession out of all the peoples on the face of the earth''

And god confirms Israel as his special nation by saying this to pharaoh

''Israel is my firstborn son, and I say to you, let my son go that he may serve me''

Why did god do this? Why did he elect/choose Israel as his special nation?

Deut 4:37
''Because he loved your fathers (Abraham) and chose their descendants after them''

The whole universe belongs to god, so god is not hedged in by a group of people. God did not elect Israel to demonstrate to pharaoh that he is another god in the universe and that the Israelites are his people and he has only rights to them. He has rights to everything, yet he delighted in loving Abraham and in loving Abraham he delighted to choose/elect/birth a nation that would make a name for himself on earth in and amongst the Egyptians and the rest of the world.

But just to show that god is not hedged in, boxed in by choosing Israel as a nation, he goes further and elects out of Israel a group of people.

Isaac and Ishmael were both sons of Abraham, but god elected Isaac, not Ishmael to make a name for himself. Both Esau and Jacob were born from Isaac’s seed, and yet god only chooses Jacob. And Jacob was the least likely candidate for election. His name means deceiver. He didn’t get chosen because he was in any way deserving of it, god chose him because he delights in his freedom to elect.

God is absolutely sovereign when it comes to who he elects, and he shows this by unconditional election. None of the people god chose had any merit to be chosen, it was completely unconditional.

Is there any indication that god has continued this trend in the NT? If so, who are the people god has elected?

I think Paul's letters clearly teach that those who were predestined to believe before the foundation of the world would believe. The gospel of John also cleary teaches of those whom the Father gave to the Son to save... will be saved. I know these truths are not very popular today, but that comment is related to my screen name.

 

[Heneni]

I think Paul's letters clearly teach that those who were predestined to believe before the foundation of the world would believe. The gospel of John also cleary teaches of those whom the Father gave to the Son to save... will be saved. I know these truths are not very popular today, but that comment is related to my screen name.

Yes its not very popular. The offense that people have in election is that they feel that god should not elect and that when he does he should elect everybody. And we are all elected for some reason or another. Some are elected to show forth the glory of god's grace, others are elected to show the glory of his wrath. Everything about god has a weight of glory.

Also, there is the notion that god loves unconditionally. And that is true. Whoever he elects he loves not because they deserve it. If we think that god loves us because we deserve it it must follow that you have something inside of you that is somehow of great worth and god loves you because of you. But if that were the case then it should follow that when you sin, you no longer can claim that you are worthy of his love. The only reason god loves us unconditionally is because when he looks at us, he sees us in his son, and when he looks at his son, he delights in Him.

When jesus looked at the hypocrites there was no sign that he was pleased at all, and called them children of the devil .Vipers, whitewashed tombstones. Paul looked at the imposters as clouds without rain, waves that foamed.

No its not popular to be elected either. In fact because we are elected we suffer persecution. Just as ishmael were at odds with isaac, the child born of promise and elected, so it is today, the children of god whom he elected are at odds with those he did not elect as a people for himself. Isaac suffered under the hands of ishmael, yet he did not have anything to do with his election, and we dont either, but we bear the brunt of it all, because we trust in god's wisdom.

Now here is something to consider. What if hagar and ishmael, instead of being offended by god's election, rather submitted under his sovereign control and wisdom and showd isaac favour because god had shown him favour? I have never seen in the bible, where god ultimately destroyed any nation or person, that showed favour to his children because he had shown them favour first!

 

[Darkness]

If humans have no part in salvation, why is Jesus and God in the Bible always calling on people to repent of their sins (something they cannot do)?

 

[Heneni]

If humans have no part in salvation, why is Jesus and God in the Bible always calling on people to repent of their sins (something they cannot do)?

Its gods kindness towards us, that leads us to repentance.

In the book of revelation when the wrath of god is poured out on the earth, the bible indicates that no man repented.

Its only the kindness of god that can lead to repentance, not the wrath of god.

So why dont man repent? Because they dont think god is kind. As long as man points the finger in the air, and curse god, and mock him, and hate him, and cross-question him, and demean him, and insult him, they cant for the life of them, see his kindness. And that blinds them, causing them to feel no need for repentance, which wont result in godly sorrow, and therefore cannot lead to faith or salvation.

However, for those god has elected, he also requires repentance, but there is one key difference here. They value what god did for them on the cross, they desire this god, they see him as wholly good, beneficial and lovely. His kindness has a very strong influence on their hearts and they are drawn to this kindness. They desire to turn from their wicked ways and turn to god, who then gives them the gift of repentance so that there might be nothing between them and god and so god sets them free of their iniquity by this repentance in order for them to enjoy him fully.

Heneni

 

[Katzpur]

The bible from the OT times shows that god unconditionally elects a people for himself. He does this election not because of anything they did to deserve it, but simply to show his freedom to elect.

Whenever the bible talks about election, you will find phrases like, '' I knew you'', ''predestined'', ''elected'', ''chose'', ''called out of'', ''separated''

In the case of Abraham, who was initially an idolater.

''You fathers lived of old beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor, and they served other gods. Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the river and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many''

This ''taking'' of Abraham is election.

When god says he knows someone it also means he has elected them. God said:

'' Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?'' and he answers himself by saying ''No, for I have known him''

That does not mean that god is ignorant of everybody else on the planet it means that god has placed his special attention on Abraham.

Whoever god chooses or elects god gives birth to. He gave birth to the Israeli nation:

''Thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob he who FORMED you, O Israel''

In Isaiah 43 he says ''I am the lord, your holy one, the creator of Israel''

Moses calls them a chosen people.

Deut 14:1

''You are a people holy (meaning set apart) and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his own possession out of all the peoples on the face of the earth''

And god confirms Israel as his special nation by saying this to pharaoh

''Israel is my firstborn son, and I say to you, let my son go that he may serve me''

Why did god do this? Why did he elect/choose Israel as his special nation?

Deut 4:37
''Because he loved your fathers (Abraham) and chose their descendants after them''

The whole universe belongs to god, so god is not hedged in by a group of people. God did not elect Israel to demonstrate to pharaoh that he is another god in the universe and that the Israelites are his people and he has only rights to them. He has rights to everything, yet he delighted in loving Abraham and in loving Abraham he delighted to choose/elect/birth a nation that would make a name for himself on earth in and amongst the Egyptians and the rest of the world.

But just to show that god is not hedged in, boxed in by choosing Israel as a nation, he goes further and elects out of Israel a group of people.

Isaac and Ishmael were both sons of Abraham, but god elected Isaac, not Ishmael to make a name for himself. Both Esau and Jacob were born from Isaac’s seed, and yet god only chooses Jacob. And Jacob was the least likely candidate for election. His name means deceiver. He didn’t get chosen because he was in any way deserving of it, god chose him because he delights in his freedom to elect.

God is absolutely sovereign when it comes to who he elects, and he shows this by unconditional election. None of the people god chose had any merit to be chosen, it was completely unconditional.

Is there any indication that god has continued this trend in the NT? If so, who are the people god has elected?

I don't believe that anyone -- including Abraham -- was ever pre-destined to be chosen. I believe there were many who were fore-ordained, and chosen before they were born to be God's servants on earth, but that doesn't mean that they were without merit. Rather, I believe it was espressly due to their merit that they were singled out to do great things. God knew each of us before we were born, and recognized the greatness in some. To me, if He chose some for no reason whatsoever except that it struck His fancy to do so, that would make Him a respecter of persons, which we know is not the case. Abraham and the others He chose had a special role to fill and they filled it. It was, however, their choice to fill it. They, like everybody else, had the gift of free will/free agency.

 

[Heneni]

I don't believe that anyone -- including Abraham -- was ever pre-destined to be chosen. I believe there were many who were fore-ordained, and chosen before they were born to be God's servants on earth, but that doesn't mean that they were without merit. Rather, I believe it was espressly due to their merit that they were singled out to do great things. God knew each of us before we were born, and recognized the greatness in some. To me, if He chose some for no reason whatsoever except that it struck His fancy to do so, that would make Him a respecter of persons, which we know is not the case. Abraham and the others He chose had a special role to fill and they filled it. It was, however, their choice to fill it. They, like everybody else, had the gift of free will/free agency.

Of course you have a right to you opinion.

What was so great about you before you were born so that god chose you instead of others.

 

[Katzpur]

Of course you have a right to you opinion.

What was so great about you before you were born so that god chose you instead of others.

My goodness! Where did I say that He chose me instead of others? I don't believe He chose me any more than He chose you or anybody else. He loves us all equally and wants to have all of us return to His presence.

 

[Christless Christianity]

Your position on the topic is determined by your source.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” - Romans 9

 

[Heneni]

My goodness! Where did I say that He chose me instead of others? I don't believe He chose me any more than He chose you or anybody else. He loves us all equally and wants to have all of us return to His presence.

Unless god knows you (have elected you) you are going to be sent away, nomatter how much he loves us all 'unconditionally'.

Matthew 7:22
. 22Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

He knows those he has elected.

Jeremiah1:5
5"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

and

'' Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?'' and he answers himself by saying ''No, for I have known him''

Why did god choose israel?Not because israel was good, infact the first guy to be called israel was jacob the deceiver, who wouldnt give his brother esau a bowl of soup before his brother gave away his birthright to him! And yet god says, he loved jacob and not esau. So if you are thinking that god is not a respector of persons, you have to think again, he loves those he elects no matter how terrible they are. He loves his chosen unconditionally no matter what state they are in.

When you say god is no respector of persons you are right. But in the context of that statement in the bible it means that when it comes to the rewards that we will receive at the end of time god will be no respector of persons and will give to each what he worked for.
Rewards can be earned, salvation cannot.

 

[gwk230]

Is there any indication that god has continued this trend in the NT? If so, who are the people god has elected?

　
Would you agree just as he has done from the beginning, he continues to do, to all that obey his words?