Going against the natural order

[Drax]

In hearing the talk of stepping outside of "nature" I am always reminded of a talk given by R.A.W. in which he explains that man, being a part of nature, can never do anything that is outside of nature. Any thing that a human being can do is just as natural as a cat killing a bird, or rain falling, or any other "natural" thing we could point to.
I have never quite agreed with the idea that human consciousness and sense of individual self is unique or unnatural.

Do animals in nature purposely inflict pain (torture) to obtain information, power or pleasure? Humans do.

 

[Drax]

There is the nomos/orthodoxy and then there is the heterodox/antinomian. The LHP, historically is simply a method of gaining gnosis through the latter praxis. All else is simply form.

I think a lot of people like to define the LHP in a lot of ways. Some say it is specifically anti-authority, some say it is anti-orthodoxy and some say it is neither. The question "what is LHP and what is not LHP?" is valid and I think it should be further explored.

If the LHP is strictly an avenue to knowledge, what knowledge? Knowledge about ourselves? Our environment? Knowledge about . . . *insert construct here* ? Should knowledge even be valued as the highest pursuit? Maybe gnosis is just one avenue on a broader road?

I also think that it might be dogmatic for someone on the LHP to view dividing from existing LHP forums/groups as wrong and unifying LHP orders as right. This should be explored further.

 

[Kori Houghton]

Do animals in nature purposely inflict pain (torture) to obtain information, power or pleasure? Humans do.

You may not be correct about the motivation behind humans using torture for the reasons you suggest. I know I have read posts in other forums where women say 'persons of interest' picked up after crimes involving children should be tortured to find out if they are guilty. I am not a parent, so I can't speak for that kind of attitude, but it seems to me that these women feel threatened by the idea alone that someone might harm a child. A person who tortures to feel powerful also feels threatened. All animals will react with an attack posture, and might follow up with some degree of violence, if they are threatened.

 

[Hagbard]

Humans are capable of a number of things that other animals are not capable of. Similarly, many other animals are capable of things beyond the ability of humans. This does not indicate that human animals or non-human animals are (or can be) outside of nature.

 

[Iti oj]

One thing I notice many LHPers talk about is going against the natural order/separation from normality or whatever else you want to call it.
I've been reflecting on this concept recently and would greatly appreciate a little input regarding what you yourself consider to be "the natural order", what separation from that order entails, why this is desirable and how you go about doing it.

If you don't hold this idea then by all means share why not.

Thanks

The Dao no like this. or is it Tao ?

 

[blackout]

The natural order (of things) is the order in which (all) things have naturally unfolded, or ordered themselves.

 

[Erebus]

Thanks for the responses so far guys. I haven't really contributed to this thread partly due to my workload from uni and partly because I'm interested to see other people's ideas.

Keep em coming

 

[1137]

One thing I notice many LHPers talk about is going against the natural order/separation from normality or whatever else you want to call it.
I've been reflecting on this concept recently and would greatly appreciate a little input regarding what you yourself consider to be "the natural order", what separation from that order entails, why this is desirable and how you go about doing it.

If you don't hold this idea then by all means share why not.

Thanks

I hear this a lot too, and it makes me question the understanding many Left Hand Path followers have about what this is all about. To me, it is one of the signs of the LHP giving way to the mainstream, as I am sure everyone has noticed.

The what people mean by 'natural' order is actually established order, I would hope. To go against the natural order, i.e. the order of nature and the universe, would jsut be silly. But we have these established moral laws, authoritative groups shoving things down our throats, and that is what we should be against. These things are unnatural. There is a natural morality and way of things already established in the universe, and we should be trying to enforce that you could say.

It is desirable to go against the established order because it is of flawed human ideals. Religions, governments... for better or worse they are set up to control people. Whether it be for enslavement or safety, it takes away the aspect of individuality. I am not saying let their be chaos. Things like murder, rape, theft, these are all against nature as it affects another person's free will. But authority organizations do also.

I am not sure I am making any sense haha, but those are my thoughts on it.

 

[blackout]

One thing I notice many LHPers talk about is going against the natural order/separation from normality or whatever else you want to call it.
I've been reflecting on this concept recently and would greatly appreciate a little input regarding what you yourself consider to be "the natural order", what separation from that order entails, why this is desirable and how you go about doing it.

If you don't hold this idea then by all means share why not.

Thanks

I've been mulling something around a bit,
and it seems relavent to the topic here.
This will probably help me clarify my own thoughts as well.

It seems to me that the natural course of evolution
as that of Natural selection/Physical adaptability
has FOR MAN, taken a back seat
to his own intellect and constructs.
(socio economic structures/inventions/protections/comforts)

The evolution of human beings is no longer confined to/ruled by
natural physical selection-
or- survival of the fittest-
as DNA most able to survive in the raw conditions of nature,
but to the intellectual realm/domain of man,
to man's socio economic structures-
though they may exist only for a (relatively) short time
and have nothing at all to do with "superior" DNA
as survival in the natural elements is concerned.
It is more about survival in man made elements and structures,
which could simply be a matter of who has/has control of the man made money.
For man (his construct) money=power (in his constructed world).

Today's strongest/most powerful/influential men in the world
may not survive three days in the natural elements
without their man made machines, inventions and constructs.
(without the help of their minions)

As more and more generations of men live solely by survival of their own
modern structures/"machines" and systems of invention and construction
does their likelyhood of survival in base natural conditions actually decrease?

I wonder also, since we have developed our own ability to fly (for example)
through human intellect/invention and construction of intellectual design
does this diminish greatly our chances of ever evolving biological wings?

Who is most apt to survive as man's lot is concerned?
The most educated?
or the most clever.
The most well funded?
Those most highly protected?
or the ones who protect them.
The ones who form?
or the ones who conform.
The ruler?
or the worker.

Or maybe the ones (humans) who know how to play with/alter DNA
will take over where the natural order of physical selection
has been rendered more or less obsolete.
(due to the evolution of intellect)

Perhaps as man is concerned
the nature of selection IS man,
(ie, it is his nature to select)
and evolution, for him,
resides in the realm of the intellect.

So maybe it's all semantics.
I don't know.

Seperation from the natural order?
Or is everything that is
just an extention of nature.
Perhaps even the natural order of things evolves.

Human beings adapt intellectually.
Through consideration, invention and construction.
Does this seperate us from the rest of nature?

 

[Drax]

Yes, UltraViolet. . . it decreases our NEED to evolve certain physical strengths -BECAUSE our strength is technology.

 

[blackout]

Yes, UltraViolet. . . it decreases our NEED to evolve certain physical strengths -BECAUSE our strength is technology.

Constructed technology does however
require natural resources.

not sure how that fits the discussion,
but it comes to mind.

 

[doppelganger]

Most people who classify themselves as LHP are generally just like everyone else. They claim an individualist philosophy built on rebellion/non-conformity yet fail to fully embrace the destructive force of the Satan archetype/being.

This is a simple list of philosophies I hold. Actually doing the things listed is self destructive. Do not read these if you are of a weak mindset.


First - Morality is limiting, smash it!
Second - If it disgusts you, embrace it!
Third - If you are obsessed with it, pursue your obsession!
Forth - If it hurts, seek more of it!
Fifth - Doubt is vile, exalt it!
Sixth - Everyone is a hypocrite!
Seventh - War is growth, peace is stagnation!
Eighth - Anyone can cast off tyranny, defeat the perceived bad guy and walk perfectly upright as a result with no hindrance of motion. Do the opposite! Embrace tyranny as it crushes you to dust!
Ninth - What we call self is a lie, destroy it!

Doesn't number 9 nullify 1-8?

 

[Drax]

Doesn't number 9 nullify 1-8?

You still have to do 1-8 and remember 9.

 

[Iti oj]

LHP go against the social flow....society goes against nature so LHP flow with nature?

 

[doppelganger]

You still have to do 1-8 and remember 9.

You're sure about that?

 

[Drax]

You're sure about that?

Hmm . . . I would think to get the first result - or that 1-8 already destroys what 'was' previous self?

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

Most people who classify themselves as LHP are generally just like everyone else. They claim an individualist philosophy built on rebellion/non-conformity yet fail to fully embrace the destructive force of the Satan archetype/being.

This is a simple list of philosophies I hold. Actually doing the things listed is self destructive. Do not read these if you are of a weak mindset.


First - Morality is limiting, smash it!
Second - If it disgusts you, embrace it!
Third - If you are obsessed with it, pursue your obsession!
Forth - If it hurts, seek more of it!
Fifth - Doubt is vile, exalt it!
Sixth - Everyone is a hypocrite!
Seventh - War is growth, peace is stagnation!
Eighth - Anyone can cast off tyranny, defeat the perceived bad guy and walk perfectly upright as a result with no hindrance of motion. Do the opposite! Embrace tyranny as it crushes you to dust!
Ninth - What we call self is a lie, destroy it!

Morality is evolved control structure for individual decision making, so I'm going to translate your first word into "ethical standard" and call your 9 a winning team. Not bad for a Satanist.

My affinity is to Set. As to the OP:

Order: Evolution.
Chaos: Emergence.

To "completely embrace chaos" would be an "uncollapsing of the wave function;" turning an individual into a probability field. I don't think anyone is that much of a lefty.

 

[Drax]

@ Theirreverentconcubine

Thank you.

 

[Iti oj]

Morality is evolved control structure for individual decision making, so I'm going to translate your first word into "ethical standard" and call your 9 a winning team. Not bad for a Satanist.

My affinity is to Set. As to the OP:

Order: Evolution.
Chaos: Emergence.

To "completely embrace chaos" would be an "uncollapsing of the wave function;" turning an individual into a probability field. I don't think anyone is that much of a lefty.

I might be...despite all my righty tendencies.

 

[Willamena]

The natural order (of things) is the order in which (all) things have naturally unfolded, or ordered themselves.

...or were ordered.