Good meat, bad meat

[Druidus]

LL, they do use bolt guns here. They just don't work something like 23% of the time.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

LL, they do use bolt guns here. They just don't work something like 23% of the time.

My mistake...I was going on one of the things you posted in those vegetarian threads you never start

 

[Druidus]

Did I actually say we don't use bolt guns? If I did, my mistake, sorry. Bit of misinformation, that's all...

 

[Fluffy]

I understand that it would probably be better to go vegetarian, but I love meat. There should be some better laws, or maybe people should start farming their own.

I personally disagree with such an attitude. To me the statement "I understand that it would probably be better to go vegetarian" admits a wrong doing since it recognises a better way but then fails to strive for this way because of giving in to emotion or instinct but "I love meat".

I find it much easier to respect, although I firmly disagree, with somebody who eats meat but sees nothing wrong with it or somebody who eats meat, realises it is wrong but makes concious efforts to give it up. Just my feelings on the matter though .

 

[michel]

And if you take it longer, you're just killing off the good bacteria

Which you can easily replace after the course of medication, by having 'live' yoghourt - the same parallel applies with chemotherapy; would you not have that, because it will also temporarily harm some of the good bits in you?

 

[Druidus]

I personally disagree with such an attitude. To me the statement "I understand that it would probably be better to go vegetarian" admits a wrong doing since it recognises a better way but then fails to strive for this way because of giving in to emotion or instinct but "I love meat".

I find it much easier to respect, although I firmly disagree, with somebody who eats meat but sees nothing wrong with it or somebody who eats meat, realises it is wrong but makes concious efforts to give it up. Just my feelings on the matter though

.

I don't usually "call" people on such statements, as I always appear to be arrogant and "holier-than-thou". But I do agree. I respect someone like LL a lot more for her choice to eat meat than someone with an attitude like that.

By the way, I do respect everyone's choices, but I respect someone like LL more because of the beliefs she has which back up the choice.

 

[Fluffy]

I don't usually "call" people on such statements, as I always appear to be arrogant and "holier-than-thou". But I do agree. I respect someone like LL a lot more for her choice to eat meat than someone with an attitude like that.

I think I come across like that sometimes as well, and I certainly don't mean any offence, but I think the advantages and benefits the other person would gain given the slight possibility that my position were right is enough to outweigh the likelihood of the offence that it would cause.

 

[kreeden]

Look, in the US - according to something Dru came up with you don't even use a bolt gun on anything there before you kill it, so I guess there's not much difference, because you're bleeding everything when it's still alive anyway. Here animals get a bolt to the head.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here Lady L , but I believe that I was agreeing with you . And by a well placed bullet , I didn't mean a " bolt gun ".

There is no humane way to kill , just getting it over with as fast as possible . And I agree 100% with what you say about GE food . For in Canada , soya is a big deal , with GM Soya being produced so that they can use " Roundup " on it .

......................................................................................................

Speaking of being humane , how humane is it to pull a plant out by it's roots ? Oh , that's right . It is just a plant , so we don't have to worry about it ....

Or for that matter , how humane is it to chop up cats , birds and small animals while using machinery to harvest these plants ? Oh yea , a combine " harvests " everything in it's path .

 

[Druidus]

Speaking of being humane , how humane is it to pull a plant out by it's roots ? Oh , that's right . It is just a plant , so we don't have to worry about it ....

Ummm... Do you realize that plants can't feel? I think I spend a quarter of my time in these threads explaining that.

For plants to feel physical pain, they must have some sort of organized tissue which, upon stimulation, would activate a structure in the plant that is conscious and could perceive the stimulation as painful. There are no structures within plants that are analogous to the pain receptors, neurons, and pain-perceiving portions of the brains of vertebrate animals. Animals, being mobile, benefit from their ability to sense pain; but plants simply have no biological or evolutionary need for the experience of pain. Even if, contrary to all evidence, plants did feel pain, it would still be preferable to be vegan. More plants are killed in non-vegan diets, as more plants must be harvested to feed animals.

Or for that matter , how humane is it to chop up cats , birds and small animals while using machinery to harvest these plants ? Oh yea , a combine " harvests " everything in it's path .

No matter how many are killed, it does not equal the death toll of a non-veg*n diet. And besides that, most things run at loud noisy carbine harvesters.

 

[kreeden]

Plants don't feel ? Their are those who would disagree with your statement Druidus . And yes , we have gone this route before . All that I'm saying is that life is life . And if a person likes feeling " holier-then-thou " because of their choice in what dies to keep them alive , ok . But when they start preaching and making others feel wrong about something as natural as eating , then I just have to shake my head .

If humane is just killing without causing pain , then shooting something in the back of the head is human . As long as a large enough gun is used . Nuking something is even more humane , as long as it is at point zero .

BTW , many small creatures get confussed by the noise of combines and such . If they run at all , then they often are as likely to run into then as run away . Like a deer in the highlights of a car . I use to hate haying because of that .

 

[Druidus]

Plants don't feel ? Their are those who would disagree with your statement Druidus .

I can state beyond any doubt at all that plants do not feel pain.

But when they start preaching and making others feel wrong about something as natural as eating , then I just have to shake my head .

Where have I preached?

If humane is just killing without causing pain , then shooting something in the back of the head is human . As long as a large enough gun is used . Nuking something is even more humane , as long as it is at point zero .

Would you mind me killing a person if I did humanely (assuming I was going to eat the person)?

 

[fromthe heart]

Well I can certainly see why people would avoid eating meat that has been treated in an inhumane way....but what's wrong with eating genetically engineered, hormone and/or antibiotic-filled meat? My impression has always been that genetically engineered foods are far superior, and can even help solve world hunger.

At this moment I can't speak to the part of genetically engineered but I sure can on the rest...
the hormones they inject into the animals to get them to grow faster react in our bodies as altering our chemicals...little girls are maturing at a faster rate in getting periods,developing breasts...etc The same thing to a point is happening to boys with puberty. Kids are becoming young adults physically now at the early age of 8 and 9...personally seeing this happen is alarming because can you imagime being a parent at the age of 10 years old???I don't think kids are able to even know what they are doing at this age yet.

Antibiotics in our meat is causing our bodies to become ammune to the antibiotics we need when we become sick and that's why they have to keep coming up with new stuff to pump into us that isn't on the norm of what used to be so tried and true for infectious disease...they try to tell everyone it's the over ues of these medicines by US...well it's over use alright but because of the meat factor.

Our food is slowly being poisoned and we sit back and take it.

As for genetically engineered who knows what effect we will have over that. If this country would not have run our farmers out of business we would have good wholesome foods as we used to have.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I am an omnivore. I eat vegetable and animal. Fresh or canned. Fried (not often), baked, boiled, broiled, grilled and RAW. It could walk, swim, float, fly, sit, vegetate.

There are a few things that I abhor, but that's OK. I like more than I hate.

 

[Saw11_2000]

Would you mind me killing a person if I did humanely (assuming I was going to eat the person)?

Not really, as long as they consent to it.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Another concern is the question of how many hormones and chemicals we take in when we eat the meat that has been treated this way. It hasn't been around long enough for us to see whether it's possible that we're taking in dangerous levels.

Can you provide any credible studies to support this assertion?

But I know for a fact that antibiotics have harmful long-term effects.

Well then it shouldn't be very difficult to back up this fact. Please do.

the hormones they inject into the animals to get them to grow faster react in our bodies as altering our chemicals...little girls are maturing at a faster rate in getting periods,developing breasts...etc The same thing to a point is happening to boys with puberty. Kids are becoming young adults physically now at the early age of 8 and 9...

Can you provide any credible studies to support this assertion?

Antibiotics in our meat is causing our bodies to become ammune to the antibiotics we need when we become sick and that's why they have to keep coming up with new stuff to pump into us that isn't on the norm of what used to be so tried and true for infectious disease...they try to tell everyone it's the over ues of these medicines by US...well it's over use alright but because of the meat factor.

Evidence, please.

Opinions are nice, but facts are preferable.

 

[kreeden]

I would like to apologise for using the term " holier-then-thou ". I was in a hurry and could have used a better term . I do not mean to offend anyone , and hope that I didn't .

Druidus , I assume that you don't believe there is any base to the studies done saying that music effects plants ? Just because plants don't have a nervous system , doesn't mean that they don't experience physical discomfort .

Never said that you were preaching .

And no , I would not mind you killing another person for food , in principle . However , it would make you a danger , and we would have to put you down . Somesides , very few creatures eat their own kind . Insects , and a few others . No warm blooded creatures that I can think of . { under normal conditions that is } .

All that I'm saying is that to eat , something dies . If it makes you feel better not to eat " higher " life forms , ok . That is cool . But it really comes down to our own personal feelings . We are all a part of the food chain .

 

[Fluffy]

All that I'm saying is that to eat , something dies . If it makes you feel better not to eat " higher " life forms , ok . That is cool . But it really comes down to our own personal feelings . We are all a part of the food chain .

Is it possible to reconcile this attitude with the fact that it is not socially acceptable to eat human meat? In other words why prevent the killing of humans for food but okay it for killing other animals?

Evidence, please.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

When Malaysian Health Minister Datuk Chua Jui Meng revealed that half the chickens sold in the country contained cancer-causing nitrofuran

[/font]A conservative estimate of the amount of antibiotics given to livestock

About 40% of all the antibiotics produced in the USA are fed to cattle and other livestock, and this is passed on the consumer in every hamburger, steak, and other food products made with US beef.

And a more liberal one:
http://www.commondreams.org/news2001/0108-01.htm

 

[painted wolf]

I use a local provider Wolf's Neck Farm... you can visit them if you like at:
http://wolfesneckfarm.org/

they are a family company that treats their animals with respect, they have two grades of meat...
The top grade goes under thier family farm label, Animals have never needed antibiotics for any reasons... the second grade is sold to the mass market.. they have gotten sick at some point and needed a round of antibiotics to get well again. These cattle are kept in seperate groups to keep them from spreading thier illness or thier antibiotics to the others. Otherwise they get the same treatment as the rest, but because of the family labels promice to not sell antibiotic treated meats they are not sold under thier label.

I also use Coleman : http://www.colemanmeats.com/

More often than not I try to purchase local grown animals, preferably from people I've met and from animals I've met... but this isn't always possible.

wa:do

 

[john313]

Plants don't feel ? Their are those who would disagree with your statement Druidus . And yes , we have gone this route before . All that I'm saying is that life is life . And if a person likes feeling " holier-then-thou " because of their choice in what dies to keep them alive , ok . But when they start preaching and making others feel wrong about something as natural as eating , then I just have to shake my head .

Peace,
assuming plants did feel pain, we must remember that is takes roughly 10-12 pounds of plants to make 1 pound of animal meat. therefore, consuming meat would cause 10-12 times the suffering compared to just eating the plant.
those who say plants can feel pain, "preach" an omnivore diet, and use suffering in their argument are not thinking things through very well; the plants feel pain too approach actually weakens their argument. if all life is life, then we should just eat the plants if we care about life at all.

 

[painted wolf]

ps...

I can state beyond any doubt at all that plants do not feel pain.

I can site studies that show that plants reccognize injuries and react to them.. ie they feel pain.
They communicate that 'pain' both to other plants (ie the accacia and lima beans who signal each other to produce foul tasteing chemicals)and to insect helpers (ie corn when attacted sends a chemical distress signal to pedatory wasps).

Plants are just as complex as we are. They just say it with chemicals rather than words.
http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-7386.html
http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/Entomology/courses/en570/papers_1996/mcintyre.html
http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/Entomology/courses/en570/papers_1996/roachell.html

If we were to become herbivores we would have to kill off the billions of animals already in human care... they would compete with us for food, space and as they are poorly suited to survival they would spread diseases as they died en mass with nothing to eat them...

wa:do