Good Reason To Have An AR-15

[Dirty Penguin]

No, that is not what I mean.
To "make" law is to alter what was originally intended in a contrary way. The Petty Offense Doctrine's
granting the government to waive a citizen's 6th Amendment right to trial by jury is an example.

They "make" law as I showed in the 2 famous cases I cited. In the Kelo v City of New London case, the USSC effectively changed the 5th Amendment's Takings Clause (which now applies to the states due to the Incorporation Doctrine) from "...private property be taken for public use..." to "....private property be taken for public benefit...". Before, property could be taken from a citizen only for public uses such as public roads, public schools, etc. But the USSC made new law in deciding that government may take one's property for any public benefit, eg, giving the land to a developer who would pay higher property taxes.

I think we're pretty much in agreement. I see your point when looking at it on a more granular level.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

So you're not just a gun nut or wacko survivalists....you're one of
those secret agent kind of nuts whose agency might turn on him.
I like it!
Do you take notes when you watch "Burn Notice"?

Not my cup of tea.....

 

[Revoltingest]

I think we're pretty much in agreement. I see your point when looking at it on a more granular level.

"Granular"...do you mean as in "tiny particles" or from a chair on a beach?

 

[Apex]

Illusion of self defense, more accurately, since the average gun is much more likely to kill its owner or another member of the household than it is to kill an intruder.

The illusion is only in your head provided you follow responsible gun safety and storage techniques. And since I know you love to harp on this particular topic, do have the statistics of accidental gun deaths in the home when shown in the context of responsible gun storage and handling? I am honestly interested in seeing them, if they even exist.

Some people describe the screening process at airports as "security theatre": going through motions that appear to have something to do with security without actually making things more secure. In most cases, I'd say that keeping guns for self defense is a sort of "one man show" version of security theatre.

There are thousands of examples that prove you wrong. I posted quite a few of them here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...9-possitive-gun-stories-news.html#post3559052

And there are many, many more to be easily found online.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The illusion is only in your head provided you follow responsible gun safety and storage techniques. And since I know you love to harp on this particular topic, do have the statistics of accidental gun deaths in the home when shown in the context of responsible gun storage and handling? I am honestly interested in seeing them, if they even exist.

Why artificially restrict things to accidental gun deaths? Most gun deaths are suicides. Having a method of suicide readily at hand that's especially fatal and practically instantaneous causes the suicide rate to be higher than it would be otherwise.

When someone attempts suicide with pills, for instance, they will often reconsider their decision after taking them and quick intervention can potentially save their life. There's no opportunity to reconsider when a person blows their brains out.

 

[McBell]

Why artificially restrict things to accidental gun deaths?

Are we to assume your avoidance is a "no"?

Most gun deaths are suicides. Having a method of suicide readily at hand that's especially fatal and practically instantaneous causes the suicide rate to be higher than it would be otherwise.

And?

When someone attempts suicide with pills, for instance, they will often reconsider their decision after taking them and quick intervention can potentially save their life. There's no opportunity to reconsider when a person blows their brains out.

again, and?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are we to assume your avoidance is a "no"?

I'm not avoiding anything; I'm standing by my original point: a gun in the home is more likely to kill a member of the household than an intruder... arbitrary and misleading attempts to ignore suicides notwithstanding.

 

[Apex]

Why artificially restrict things to accidental gun deaths? Most gun deaths are suicides. Having a method of suicide readily at hand that's especially fatal and practically instantaneous causes the suicide rate to be higher than it would be otherwise.

When someone attempts suicide with pills, for instance, they will often reconsider their decision after taking them and quick intervention can potentially save their life. There's no opportunity to reconsider when a person blows their brains out.

Not so quick there, do you have the statistics I mentioned, in the context of proper gun handling/storage?

And the national conversation on gun control here in the states has always been in reference to homicides, not suicide. If you want to rant about suicide, be my guest. But you will have to do it with some other poster.

Also, the suicide rate up north differs from the US by only 4%. So maybe you will want to figure out why so many of your own country men and women are killing themselves when they do not have the same access to firearms that we do.

 

[McBell]

I'm not avoiding anything; I'm standing by my original point: a gun in the home is more likely to kill a member of the household than an intruder

and?

My family has had various firearms (handguns, shotguns, and long guns) in the home for generations and have injured more intruders (7) in the last eight generations than family members (0).

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not avoiding anything; I'm standing by my original point: a gun in the home is more likely to kill a member of the household than an intruder... arbitrary and misleading attempts to ignore suicides notwithstanding.

How is this calculated?

This isn't to challenge your having an argument, but I also note that 97.1% of statistics are made up on the spot.

 

[McBell]

and?

My family has had various firearms (handguns, shotguns, and long guns) in the home for generations and have injured more intruders (7) in the last eight generations than family members (0).

My apologies.
My father has informed me it is eleven generations, not eight.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not so quick there, do you have the statistics I mentioned, in the context of proper gun handling/storage?

No. Why do you need them?

And the national conversation on gun control here in the states has always been in reference to homicides, not suicide.

Ah... that's why I get more than 58 million hits when I Google "gun control suicide united states", right?

If you want to rant about suicide, be my guest. But you will have to do it with some other poster.

Also, the suicide rate up north differs from the US by only 4%. So maybe you will want to figure out why so many of your own country men and women are killing themselves when they do not have the same access to firearms that we do.

First off, don't think that we're gun-free. About a sixth of Canadian households have guns.

Canada has a huge problem with suicide in its aboriginal communities - this is a problem that, so far, seems to be immune to simple solutions. Regardless, when we do an apples-to-apples comparison, we find this:

A home where there are firearms is five times more likely to be the scene of a suicide than a home without a gun: Canada Safety Council.

Gun control keeps suicides down | Toronto Star

 

[Reverend Rick]

Why artificially restrict things to accidental gun deaths? Most gun deaths are suicides. Having a method of suicide readily at hand that's especially fatal and practically instantaneous causes the suicide rate to be higher than it would be otherwise.

When someone attempts suicide with pills, for instance, they will often reconsider their decision after taking them and quick intervention can potentially save their life. There's no opportunity to reconsider when a person blows their brains out.

Thats it? Seriously? Thats you arguement? I'm sorry Jeff, that is the most emotionally lame arguement I have ever heard for you to take my guns.

I could jump off a building, bridge, cliff.....

You know what? If I want to kill myself, that should be my right. An emotional appeal to some wus who changed their mind, the world could just do without them.

Decisions have consequences. Wanting others to forfeit their rights for the mentally unstable is beyond compare.

Most of the time, you present a good case for your opinions. I have never seen you stoop so low in all the years I have known you. There is not logic here, just emotion.

You don't want people to have guns so they can go through life not taking responsibility for their actions.

Damn man, I keep poison and pills away from pets and children. I keep kitchen knives put away too. I have a gun safe, I HAVE AN ADDITIONAL ONE EVEN IN MY FRIGGIN CAR.

I have raised my children, my grandchildren visit. Never once have I put their lives in risk.

Just because there are lame people in this world who are emotionally unstable or irresponsible, everyone else should be punished and cannot be trusted owning a gun in their home.

That is stupid logic.....sorry.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thats it? Seriously? Thats you arguement? I'm sorry Jeff, that is the most emotionally lame arguement I have ever heard for you to take my guns.

I could jump off a building, bridge, cliff.....

You know what? If I want to kill myself, that should be my right. An emotional appeal to some wus who changed their mind, the world could just do without them.

So much for sympathy for mental illness.

Decisions have consequences. Wanting others to forfeit their rights for the mentally unstable is beyond compare.

... he says from the country that prohibits the import of haggis and Kinder Surprise eggs for "safety" reasons.

Most of the time, you present a good case for your opinions. I have never seen you stoop so low in all the years I have known you. There is not logic here, just emotion.

It's a matter of simple math: more often than not, the person who keeps a gun thinking that it reduces the likelihood that he or his family members will die is wrong.

You don't want people to have guns so they can go through life not taking responsibility for their actions.

When did I say that? So far, I haven't been arguing that people should get rid of their guns; I've just been arguing that people should be honest about their effects.

If you want to argue that the benefit you get from being able to kill an intruder outweighs the marginal increase in risk to your family, that's a personal, subjective value judgement that I can't really question. However, you don't get to argue that there is no marginal increase in risk. You're entitled to your own opinion, but you aren't entitled to your own facts.

Damn man, I keep poison and pills away from pets and children. I keep kitchen knives put away too. I have a gun safe, I HAVE AN ADDITIONAL ONE EVEN IN MY FRIGGIN CAR.

I have raised my children, my grandchildren visit. Never once have I put their lives in risk.

Just because there are lame people in this world who are emotionally unstable or irresponsible, everyone else should be punished and cannot be trusted owning a gun in their home.

That is stupid logic.....sorry.

Again: I haven't said that. I never said that the increase in risk implies that you should lose your guns. At this point, I'm just saying that you should acknowledge the increase in risk.

I'm not trying to take away your precious guns. I'm just trying to keep you honest.

 

[CMike]

Rick makes excellent points.

Just because some people may use a gun to kill themselves doesn't mean that my constitutional right gets to be taken away as a result.

 

[Reverend Rick]

If you want to argue that the benefit you get from being able to kill an intruder outweighs the marginal increase in risk to your family, that's a personal, subjective value judgement that I can't really question. However, you don't get to argue that there is no marginal increase in risk. You're entitled to your own opinion, but you aren't entitled to your own facts.

I have never said that there is not a danger or risk owning firearms. I have a chainsaw in the barn, that thing is dangerous. I keep a blade guard on it because it can hurt you when it is not running. You can back your car over rug rats if you don't keep an eye on them. They can drown in the bubble tub. They can get to your medicine or cleaning supplies. An electric knife is wonderful to carve a turkey, it's dangerous too. As big as TV's are today, they could crush a baby easy if it was tipped over. There is danger everywhere in a home. Garage doors can mess you up, you can fall down stairs. Get my point here? Ever run a tractor? Farm accidents happen all the time. Life is dangerous, we all die from it eventually.

I'm not trying to take away your precious guns. I'm just trying to keep you honest.

You will never meet a more honest man Jeff, I admit mistakes all the time but I never said guns were not dangerous. You can reduce the danger being responsible.

Guns are not just for intruders, we have wild animals, snakes and such as well. I look at a gun no different than a screwdriver, it is a tool. By the way, I could kill a person with a screwdriver easy, they are dangerous too.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I have heard Jeff complain he would not want to be in the same room as a person carrying a gun. It makes him uncomfortable. I will tell you what makes me uncomfortable, people texting and driving. They are by far more dangerous driving a 6000 pound truck towards you at 70 MPH and all they have to do is cross the line to kill you and they are not even looking out the windshield.

Should we ban cell phones?

 

[McBell]

So much for sympathy for mental illness.

What does sympathy (or lack of) for mental illness have to do with taking away gun rights?

... he says from the country that prohibits the import of haggis and Kinder Surprise eggs for "safety" reasons.

Kinda the point, now isn't it?
Or are you suggesting that guns should be prohibited for the same bull **** "safety" reasons?

It's a matter of simple math: more often than not, the person who keeps a gun thinking that it reduces the likelihood that he or his family members will die is wrong.

Everyone dies.
Period.
So I fail to see the point of this comment.

However, you don't get to argue that there is no marginal increase in risk. You're entitled to your own opinion, but you aren't entitled to your own facts.

Bull ****.
In my house there is no "increase" in marginal risk simply because there have always been firearms around...

So it seems to me that you are the one trying for your own facts.

Again: I haven't said that. I never said that the increase in risk implies that you should lose your guns. At this point, I'm just saying that you should acknowledge the increase in risk.

Except that there is no increase in risk at my house...

I'm not trying to take away your precious guns. I'm just trying to keep you honest.

Perhaps you should turn that policing onto yourself?

 

[CMike]

I have never said that there is not a danger or risk owning firearms. I have a chainsaw in the barn, that thing is dangerous. I keep a blade guard on it because it can hurt you when it is not running. You can back your car over rug rats if you don't keep an eye on them. They can drown in the bubble tub. They can get to your medicine or cleaning supplies. An electric knife is wonderful to carve a turkey, it's dangerous too. As big as TV's are today, they could crush a baby easy if it was tipped over. There is danger everywhere in a home. Garage doors can mess you up, you can fall down stairs. Get my point here? Ever run a tractor? Farm accidents happen all the time. Life is dangerous, we all die from it eventually.You will never meet a more honest man Jeff, I admit mistakes all the time but I never said guns were not dangerous. You can reduce the danger being responsible.

Guns are not just for intruders, we have wild animals, snakes and such as well. I look at a gun no different than a screwdriver, it is a tool. By the way, I could kill a person with a screwdriver easy, they are dangerous too.

Don't forget pressure cookers.

Perhaps they should only be allowed only up to 4 quarts?

 

[Revoltingest]

An interesting news item....
'Machine Gun Tourism' Thriving in Las Vegas