Good works are better than faith alone.

[Pragmatist]

I follow the letter of James on this question:

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

...faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

...faith without deeds is useless...

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

A very simple point, and one that is difficult to refute through rational argumentation. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. What we intend matters very little; it is what we do that counts.

Primarily, this is an ethical question. But, it contains a challenge to every believer in religion: When your religion does evil deeds, how do you continue to believe in it? Should we not judge the tree by its fruit? Child rape: bad; therefor, Catholicism: bad. Is this not logical?

Atheism also faces the same challenge. It is not as if atheism is sanctified by the overwhelming evidence of its "good deeds." It seems to me that the real progress in history has not been accomplished by "secular-progressives," but by religious fanatics: the role of Calvinism in the development of democracy, for example. Would there be an even halfway functioning parliament in Britain, if not for Cromwell? Would the USA have ever even approached the ideals of republican freedom, if not for the original puritan settlers?

 

[punkdbass]

I agree that good works are better than faith alone, for I believe God's primary demand of us is ethical behavior rather than faith related.

But imo, the scriptures you've provided simply show that faith alone can't achieve salvation, but don't necessarily imply that works alone can achieve salvation.

Are there any verses in the NT that support the idea that a person can be "saved" by his works? In other words, that it is possible for a non-Christian to be saved? Just curious.

 

[Pragmatist]

...the scriptures you've provided simply show that faith alone can't achieve salvation, but don't necessarily imply that works alone can achieve salvation.

Perhaps I have unintentionally implied a doctrine of "works alone," in absolute opposition to faith alone.

There is no need for strict dualism on the question. Faith without works is dead, but so is works without faith. Works without faith is blind automatism. I'd rather be a human that suffers and perishes for a complete delusion, rather than a robot that lives for a thousand years, without any faith in anything at all, no matter how delusional that faith happens to be.

Never the less, I lean to the side of works. If I had to be justified by one thing only, I would choose works. In the cosmic scheme of things, I would rather be a mother Theresa, who supposedly persisted in her good works, despite her doubts, rather than an ineffectual dreamer who never accomplished anything.

 

[Vultar]

Good works are better then any faith in my books.
Better for you too.

 

[ChristineES]

If someone follows God, they are supposed to act like it.

 

[Kathryn]

You can't really separate the two.

Works are the outward manifestation of inner faith.

By faith Abraham was saved, but action was required of him.

 

[gzusfrk]

How can you have Jesus in your heart and not do good things

 

[839311]

The idea that faith is a requirement to get into heaven is one of the most non-sensical Christian ideas. Why would God give credit to someone for believing in something? Religious faith, in my books, is of no inherent value at all. None. I would think that God has respect for a skeptical and rational approach to understanding reality, and none for a faith-based approach.

 

[punkdbass]

You can't really separate the two.

Works are the outward manifestation of inner faith.

By faith Abraham was saved, but action was required of him.

But what about humanists who have no faith but do good acts?

 

[Kathryn]

But what about humanists who have no faith but do good acts?

"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set
on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of
those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10 RSV)

Note it doesn't say "only" of those who believe.

ROMANS 2:14-16 (RSV)

The Natural Law
_____________________________________________________________

14
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the
law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though
they do not have the law.
15
They show that what the law requires is written on their
hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and
their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
16
on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the
secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

That being said, I believe the bible is clear on one point - if you reject the Gospel (this differs significantly from never being exposed to it) and you reject Jesus Christ, you will not spend eternity in His presence.

 

[punkdbass]

"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set
on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of
those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10 RSV)

Note it doesn't say "only" of those who believe.

ROMANS 2:14-16 (RSV)

The Natural Law
_____________________________________________________________

14
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the
law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though
they do not have the law.
15
They show that what the law requires is written on their
hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and
their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
16
on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the
secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

That being said, I believe the bible is clear on one point - if you reject the Gospel (this differs significantly from never being exposed to it) and you reject Jesus Christ, you will not spend eternity in His presence.

Interesting, thanks for the scripture. What does it mean to "reject" Jesus or "reject" the gospels? I set up a thread on this subject, do you think you could reply to it? I'd appreciate it. The thread is here

Because I am of the mind that good Jews and Muslims who reject the idea that Jesus is God in His entirety, will still go to heaven because they serve God alone.

 

[Kathryn]

Interesting, thanks for the scripture. What does it mean to "reject" Jesus or "reject" the gospels? I set up a thread on this subject, do you think you could reply to it? I'd appreciate it. The thread is here

Because I am of the mind that good Jews and Muslims who reject the idea that Jesus is God in His entirety, will still go to heaven because they serve God alone.

Well, let me put it to you this way - I don't put myself in a position to try to judge who will and who won't be in heaven. I bet we're ALL in for some surprises on that day.

 

[Revoltingest]

I say good works are better.
I've known too many Xians who succumbed to the temptation to do wrong.
So salvation by belief is insufficient threat/reward to ensure good works.
Sure, they'll do a few here & there, but don't we all?

 

[Twig pentagram]

I agree with that.

 

[manc]

Because I am of the mind that good Jews and Muslims who reject the idea that Jesus is God in His entirety, will still go to heaven because they serve God alone.

so what about someone(say a tribesman in the amazon) who knows nothing of jesus or our gods,but lives his life as a good person,never does harm to anyone only good,do you think any god would reject him because he doesnt believe.

 

[Tarheeler]

Interesting, thanks for the scripture. What does it mean to "reject" Jesus or "reject" the gospels? I set up a thread on this subject, do you think you could reply to it? I'd appreciate it. The thread is here

Because I am of the mind that good Jews and Muslims who reject the idea that Jesus is God in His entirety, will still go to heaven because they serve God alone.

According to my Baptist upbringing, it's simple my friend.

Anyone who has heard of Jesus and doesn't accept him as the son of God and messiah is rejecting him.

People who are born to another faith, such as Jews and Muslims, and have heard about Jesus and do not immediately convert to Christianity are damned. And people like me, who were born and raised Christian and then convert to another religion, are in an even worse position.

Like you, I think that belief in Jesus isn't a requirement; I don't really think that disbelief in God is an automatic no. I think actions are much more important that belief, and everyone has the potential to share in the world to come.

And do know that there are Christians who don't apply such a strict adherence to the idea, but the seem to be in the minority.

 

[rusra02]

I follow the letter of James on this question:









A very simple point, and one that is difficult to refute through rational argumentation. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. What we intend matters very little; it is what we do that counts.

Primarily, this is an ethical question. But, it contains a challenge to every believer in religion: When your religion does evil deeds, how do you continue to believe in it? Should we not judge the tree by its fruit? Child rape: bad; therefor, Catholicism: bad. Is this not logical?

Atheism also faces the same challenge. It is not as if atheism is sanctified by the overwhelming evidence of its "good deeds." It seems to me that the real progress in history has not been accomplished by "secular-progressives," but by religious fanatics: the role of Calvinism in the development of democracy, for example. Would there be an even halfway functioning parliament in Britain, if not for Cromwell? Would the USA have ever even approached the ideals of republican freedom, if not for the original puritan settlers?

Good point. Mere belief will not save one, if such belief has no impact on our conduct. On the other hand, works without faith will not save one, either. "By this undeserved kindness, indeed, you have been saved through faith; and this not owing to you, it is God's gift. No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have grounds for boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9) God saves us through his mercy and the ransom sacrifice of Christ, in which we must exercise faith. (John 3:16) Thereafter, our faith is shown by the works of faith we perform. These are necessary for salvation, but the works alone cannot save us. We can never earn our salvation through good works.

The political outcomes of "Christian" activists do not constitute the works approved by God, and in many cases, have brought great suffering and death to many.

​

​

 

[Kathryn]

so what about someone(say a tribesman in the amazon) who knows nothing of jesus or our gods,but lives his life as a good person,never does harm to anyone only good,do you think any god would reject him because he doesnt believe.

No. The bible states that if a person has never heard doctrine, or heard of Jesus, they have their own moral law written on their hearts and they will be judged by that. I posted that passage a few posts ago.

 

[Kathryn]

According to my Baptist upbringing, it's simple my friend.

Anyone who has heard of Jesus and doesn't accept him as the son of God and messiah is rejecting him.

People who are born to another faith, such as Jews and Muslims, and have heard about Jesus and do not immediately convert to Christianity are damned. And people like me, who were born and raised Christian and then convert to another religion, are in an even worse position.

Thank goodness there are a lot of Christians out there who are not Baptist and who don't believe this.

 

[Tarheeler]

Thank goodness there are a lot of Christians out there who are not Baptist and who don't believe this.

I agree.

Too bad they're so hard to find my neck of the woods.