Gospel of Thomas Part 1

[Mr Cheese]

The Gospel of Thomas is perhaps the most well known of all the Gnostic texts. Indeed so well is it known that many exoteric maninstream christian book study groups have or are studying it. Thomas has also been the subject in recent history in books and films such as "Stigmata."

Thomas the name of course means twin. As we shall Thomas is a series of sayings written down or recorded by Thomas himself. These are supposedly said by the "Living Christ." Whether the living Jesus spoke these words are not are unimportant although some like to look at history. What we see here are Zen Koan like sayings that make us think and as the text itself alludes to, will help us "see things differently" so to speak.

Please respond with your thoughts, feelings etc.

Lets discuss Thomas

Here we begin with part 1:

(1)

These are the secret sayings

which the living Jesus spoke and

which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.
And he said,
"Whoever finds the interpretation

of these sayings

will not experience death."

..........



Jeremiah 32:14

"Take these (documents) and

deposit them in an earthenware jar

so that they may be preserved

for a long time to come."



Once hidden,

now I am revealed.

Once lost,

now I am found.

Once rejected,

now I am the cornerstone.

Once buried treasure,

now I emerge from the tomb, alive!

Once imprisoned in Egypt,

now I declare freedom

to all who hear my words,

which have been resurrected

to bring you Life.

....................




..................


Isaiah 55:3

"Come to me and listen to my words,

hear me and you will have life."
.................

John 6:68

"Your words are words of eternal life"

Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 654

"whoever hears these words

shall not taste death"
................

John 8:52

"if anyone keeps my word,

he will not taste death
for all eternity"
............

John 6:63

"The words I have spoken to you

are both Spirit and Life"
..............

from Pseudo-Dionysius The Complete Works
Translation by Colm Luibheld,1987, Paulist Press

"He grants the highest measure of existence to those more exalted beings
described in scripture

as eternal. But beings are never without being

which, in turn, comes from the Preexistent.

He is not a facet of being.

Rather, being is as facet of him. …

He is the eternity of being,

the source and the measure of being."
............................

Life is a verb.

Become a human being.

Excerpt from THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS,

A new version based on its inner meaning

by Andrew Phillip Smith, Ulysses Books, 2003

"The Gospel of Thomas …tells us that if we find the inner meaning of these
sayings, we shall not taste death. This death is both the fact of mortality,
that each one of us will die, and the spiritual death in which we live our
everyday lives. Throughout its sayings, parables and dialogues, the Gospel of
Thomas presents mankind as being in a fallen state. We are dead, we are blind
and drunk, we do not know the truth, are impoverished, divided and in darkness.
But there is another state. In the new state we will be alive, will be able to
see, will be intoxicated rather than drunk, will know the truth, have real
wealth, and be in the light. We will go into the kingdom and we will have unity.
The Gospel of Thomas tells us of these two states and how we may change our
state from the former to the latter."

 

[LittlePinky82]

Thanks for posting these Mr Cheese. I think Thomas gets a bad wrap. I adore him and Peter out of the apostles. I can't stand Paul. It would be great to have a discussion on these books if other gnostics are interested.

 

[Kurt31416]

Thomas isn't capital G second century Gnostic, there are no parallels. But it is very similar to the Mandaean gnostics in a general way, particularly that part not paralleled in the Christian Gospels.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Thomas isn't capital G second century Gnostic, there are no parallels. But it is very similar to the Mandaean gnostics in a general way, particularly that part not paralleled in the Christian Gospels.

how is it similar to mandaeans?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

These are the secret sayings

which the living Jesus spoke and

I think this is the most interesting part when it comes to the history of this book. I wonder if this is one of the reasons it was not included?

I say that because Jesus said openly I have said nothing in secret and done all things openly.

"The Gospel of Thomas …tells us that if we find the inner meaning of these
sayings, we shall not taste death.

This is always worth fleshing out!

 

[Kurt31416]

how is it similar to mandaeans?

Hi Mr Cheese, thanks for asking. We can go into it in detail, but I'll just give a quick summary. Keep in mind we have 1800 year old Thomas scraps, but the Mandaean (follower of John the Baptist) writings have been distorted over the centuries, so it's often, but not always, a general reference that sorts out some of the difficult non-Christian sayings in Thomas.

It's pretty long, because I listed all the parallels in several sources, but the introduction and summary are a quick read. There's a lot more but this explores the "seek and you will find" motif very common in Thomas and the Mandaeans, and very rare in the Christian Gospels...

----------------

Introduction

The term "Seek and You Will Find" is central to the Mandaean
followers of John the Baptist, and their most important book, the
Ginza Rba, mentions it repeatedly. If you go to a Mandaean Website,
it's likely to be on the first page prominently. It's also in the
Gospel of Thomas, and to a lesser extent, the Christian Gospels and
other misc. places. They are all related, and this gives us evidence
on how they are related.

There are several related pairs, often found alongside the Seek and
You will Find pair, that are also found in most of the above. For
those able to see this in color, they are color coded throughout so
they can be spotted in context at a glance, which is part of the
design.

The Five Seek and Find Related Pairs

• Seek and you will find.

• Find and you will reign/rest

• Speak and you will be heard.

• Ask and you will receive.

• Knock and you will enter.

Mandaean Ginza Rba

The Mandaeans have 4 of the 5 pairs, leaving out "Find and you will
reign/rest" It has "Knock and you will enter" only once, and that one
is paralleled in Thomas, Matthew and Luke.

30 And they shall say "Seek and find, speak and be heard!" and kiss
their hands.

33 "Is there (not?) room for us in the Place of Light? For those that
seek (ask) of it find, and those who speak of it are heard".

35 I sought to lift my eyes, shoulders and arms towards the Place
which is all life, radiance and glory, the place where which is all
life, radiance, light and glory; a place where they who seek of it
find, those who speak of it are heard and to those who ask of it, it
is given them, day by day and hour by hour.

35 The first (generations) sought and found: let those that come
after seek, and they will find. Seek and find for yourselves, for
your friends, for your friends' friends and for those who love the
great Family of Life.

35 Those who seek of Him find, and to those who ask of Him it will be
given. For to him that standeth at a closed door Thou wilt open the
closed door.

35 "Is there no place for me in the Place of Light, since those who
seek therefrom find, and ask thereof and it is given them?"

41 It praiseth and speaketh, "Every Nasoraean who reciteth these
secret sayings will seek and find, will speak and be heard seven
times daily. And seven sins will be forgiven him in the great Place
of Light and Eternal Abode."

We will seek and find, speak and be heard. We have sought and found,
have spoken and been heard in thy presence

And those who seek from Him shall find, and to those who ask of Him
It will be given.

my chosen, ye sought and ye found,
moreover ye shall seek and ye shall find.
ye sought and found, my chosen ones,
as the first (souls?) sought and found.

He will seek but will not find,
And ask, but nought will be given him,
Because he had in his hand and gave not,
He will search there in his bosom and will find nothing."

Etc. etc. etc.

Gospel of Thomas

Thomas has "Seek and you will Find" three times, while the Synoptics
only have it once each. An indication it's closer to the Mandaean
original idea...

P.Oxy. 654.5-9:
[Jesus said,] "Let the one seek[ing] not stop [seeking until] he
finds. And when he finds he will marvel, and marveling he will reign,
and reigning he will rest.

Thomas 2
Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When
he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will
be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

Thomas 92
Jesus said, "Seek and you will find. Yet, what you asked me about in
former times and which I did not tell you then, now I do desire to
tell, but you do not inquire after it."

Thomas 94
Jesus said, "He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let
in."

Synoptics

...But the Synoptics match that one common with all, "Seek and
Find/Knock and Enter" saying of the Mandaeans better, because it also
has the Ask and Receive part.

Matthew 7: 7-8
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock,
and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he
who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Luke 11:9-10
"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you
will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who
asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it
will be opened.

Mark 11:24
"Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask,
believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.

Matthew 21:22
"And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

Gospel of the Hebrews

This particular reference to the Gospel of the Hebrews is clearly
talking about Thomas. It has the same reigning and resting attached
to it.

Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis i. 9. 45).
Even (or also, in the Gospel according to the Hebrews is written the
saying, 'he that wondereth shall reign, and he that reigneth shall
rest'.

id. (Strom.) v.14.96.
For those words have the same force as these: He shall not cease from
seeking until he find, and having found, he will be amazed, and
having been amazed will reign, and having reigned will rest.


Dialog of the Savior (9-12, 20, 79-80 ...)

And traces of it are in the Dialog of the Savior. No doubt from the
same common source, but more distorted.

His disciples said, "Lord, who is it who seeks, and [...] reveals?"
The Lord said to them, "He who seeks [...] reveals [...]."
Matthew said, "Lord, when I [...] and when I speak, who is it who
[...] and who listens?"
The Lord said, "It is the one who speaks who also listens, and it is
the one who can see who also reveals."

[...] what you seek after [...] inquire after [...] within you [...]

I say to you, let him who possesses power renounce it and repent. And
let him who [...] seek and find and rejoice."

But when you see the Eternal Existent, that is the great vision."
They all said to him, "Tell us about it!"
He said to them, "How do you wish to see it? By means of a transient
vision or an eternal vision?" He went on and said, "Strive to save
that which can follow you, and to seek it out, and to speak from
within it, so that, as you seek it out, everything might be in
harmony with you.

The Gospel of John

John, the anti-Thomas only has the one missing from Thomas, the greed
one, "Ask and Receive".

John 14:13-14
Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may
be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do
it.

John 15:7
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish,
and it will be done for you.

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you
would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that
whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 16:23-24,26
In that day you will not question Me about anything Truly, truly, I
say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will
give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask
and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full...In that day
you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request
of the Father on your behalf;


Summary & Conclusions

One of, if not the most common/important phrases in the Mandaean
(followers of John the Baptist) religion, "Seen and you will Find" is
found in the sayings of Jesus. Not surprising, since at one time,
Jesus was one of them.

It is found several forms in Thomas, but only one in the Synoptics,
which is expected, since Thomas is far closer to the original than
anything else. One more case of close parallels between Thomas and
the Mandaeans.

But, that one phrase all have in common, the "Knock and Enter" one is
different in Thomas, the Ask and Receive part is missing. That could
be because it was edited out somewhere down the line. We can tell
from the Greek/Coptic versions that it happened. Who knows why,
perhaps because Thomas repeatedly saying you shouldn't pray, which is
like asking. It's also possible late Mandaeans altered it to match
the Christians they were well familiar with, but since it's also
found in several other places not paralleled by the Christians, it's
unlikely.

So, we have one more confirmation, that there really was a Jesus, who
really was a follower, at least to some extent, of someone named John
the Baptist, and that there is genuine information about Jesus in the
Synoptic Gospels, and the Gospel of Thomas. Some of the words of the
historical Jesus, in this case, the ideas of John, survive.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Hi Mr Cheese, thanks for asking. We can go into it in detail, but I'll just give a quick summary. Keep in mind we have 1800 year old Thomas scraps, but the Mandaean (follower of John the Baptist) writings have been distorted over the centuries, so it's often, but not always, a general reference that sorts out some of the difficult non-Christian sayings in Thomas.

It's pretty long, because I listed all the parallels in several sources, but the introduction and summary are a quick read. There's a lot more but this explores the "seek and you will find" motif very common in Thomas and the Mandaeans, and very rare in the Christian Gospels...

----------------

Introduction

The term "Seek and You Will Find" is central to the Mandaean
followers of John the Baptist, and their most important book, the
Ginza Rba, mentions it repeatedly. If you go to a Mandaean Website,
it's likely to be on the first page prominently. It's also in the
Gospel of Thomas, and to a lesser extent, the Christian Gospels and
other misc. places. They are all related, and this gives us evidence
on how they are related.

There are several related pairs, often found alongside the Seek and
You will Find pair, that are also found in most of the above. For
those able to see this in color, they are color coded throughout so
they can be spotted in context at a glance, which is part of the
design.

The Five Seek and Find Related Pairs

• Seek and you will find.

• Find and you will reign/rest

• Speak and you will be heard.

• Ask and you will receive.

• Knock and you will enter.

Mandaean Ginza Rba

The Mandaeans have 4 of the 5 pairs, leaving out "Find and you will
reign/rest" It has "Knock and you will enter" only once, and that one
is paralleled in Thomas, Matthew and Luke.

30 And they shall say "Seek and find, speak and be heard!" and kiss
their hands.

33 "Is there (not?) room for us in the Place of Light? For those that
seek (ask) of it find, and those who speak of it are heard".

35 I sought to lift my eyes, shoulders and arms towards the Place
which is all life, radiance and glory, the place where which is all
life, radiance, light and glory; a place where they who seek of it
find, those who speak of it are heard and to those who ask of it, it
is given them, day by day and hour by hour.

35 The first (generations) sought and found: let those that come
after seek, and they will find. Seek and find for yourselves, for
your friends, for your friends' friends and for those who love the
great Family of Life.

35 Those who seek of Him find, and to those who ask of Him it will be
given. For to him that standeth at a closed door Thou wilt open the
closed door.

35 "Is there no place for me in the Place of Light, since those who
seek therefrom find, and ask thereof and it is given them?"

41 It praiseth and speaketh, "Every Nasoraean who reciteth these
secret sayings will seek and find, will speak and be heard seven
times daily. And seven sins will be forgiven him in the great Place
of Light and Eternal Abode."

We will seek and find, speak and be heard. We have sought and found,
have spoken and been heard in thy presence

And those who seek from Him shall find, and to those who ask of Him
It will be given.

my chosen, ye sought and ye found,
moreover ye shall seek and ye shall find.
ye sought and found, my chosen ones,
as the first (souls?) sought and found.

He will seek but will not find,
And ask, but nought will be given him,
Because he had in his hand and gave not,
He will search there in his bosom and will find nothing."

Etc. etc. etc.

Gospel of Thomas

Thomas has "Seek and you will Find" three times, while the Synoptics
only have it once each. An indication it's closer to the Mandaean
original idea...

P.Oxy. 654.5-9:
[Jesus said,] "Let the one seek[ing] not stop [seeking until] he
finds. And when he finds he will marvel, and marveling he will reign,
and reigning he will rest.

Thomas 2
Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When
he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will
be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

Thomas 92
Jesus said, "Seek and you will find. Yet, what you asked me about in
former times and which I did not tell you then, now I do desire to
tell, but you do not inquire after it."

Thomas 94
Jesus said, "He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let
in."

Synoptics

...But the Synoptics match that one common with all, "Seek and
Find/Knock and Enter" saying of the Mandaeans better, because it also
has the Ask and Receive part.

Matthew 7: 7-8
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock,
and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he
who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Luke 11:9-10
"So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you
will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who
asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it
will be opened.

Mark 11:24
"Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask,
believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.

Matthew 21:22
"And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

Gospel of the Hebrews

This particular reference to the Gospel of the Hebrews is clearly
talking about Thomas. It has the same reigning and resting attached
to it.

Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis i. 9. 45).
Even (or also, in the Gospel according to the Hebrews is written the
saying, 'he that wondereth shall reign, and he that reigneth shall
rest'.

id. (Strom.) v.14.96.
For those words have the same force as these: He shall not cease from
seeking until he find, and having found, he will be amazed, and
having been amazed will reign, and having reigned will rest.


Dialog of the Savior (9-12, 20, 79-80 ...)

And traces of it are in the Dialog of the Savior. No doubt from the
same common source, but more distorted.

His disciples said, "Lord, who is it who seeks, and [...] reveals?"
The Lord said to them, "He who seeks [...] reveals [...]."
Matthew said, "Lord, when I [...] and when I speak, who is it who
[...] and who listens?"
The Lord said, "It is the one who speaks who also listens, and it is
the one who can see who also reveals."

[...] what you seek after [...] inquire after [...] within you [...]

I say to you, let him who possesses power renounce it and repent. And
let him who [...] seek and find and rejoice."

But when you see the Eternal Existent, that is the great vision."
They all said to him, "Tell us about it!"
He said to them, "How do you wish to see it? By means of a transient
vision or an eternal vision?" He went on and said, "Strive to save
that which can follow you, and to seek it out, and to speak from
within it, so that, as you seek it out, everything might be in
harmony with you.

The Gospel of John

John, the anti-Thomas only has the one missing from Thomas, the greed
one, "Ask and Receive".

John 14:13-14
Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may
be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do
it.

John 15:7
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish,
and it will be done for you.

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you
would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that
whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 16:23-24,26
In that day you will not question Me about anything Truly, truly, I
say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will
give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask
and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full...In that day
you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request
of the Father on your behalf;


Summary & Conclusions

One of, if not the most common/important phrases in the Mandaean
(followers of John the Baptist) religion, "Seen and you will Find" is
found in the sayings of Jesus. Not surprising, since at one time,
Jesus was one of them.

It is found several forms in Thomas, but only one in the Synoptics,
which is expected, since Thomas is far closer to the original than
anything else. One more case of close parallels between Thomas and
the Mandaeans.

But, that one phrase all have in common, the "Knock and Enter" one is
different in Thomas, the Ask and Receive part is missing. That could
be because it was edited out somewhere down the line. We can tell
from the Greek/Coptic versions that it happened. Who knows why,
perhaps because Thomas repeatedly saying you shouldn't pray, which is
like asking. It's also possible late Mandaeans altered it to match
the Christians they were well familiar with, but since it's also
found in several other places not paralleled by the Christians, it's
unlikely.

So, we have one more confirmation, that there really was a Jesus, who
really was a follower, at least to some extent, of someone named John
the Baptist, and that there is genuine information about Jesus in the
Synoptic Gospels, and the Gospel of Thomas. Some of the words of the
historical Jesus, in this case, the ideas of John, survive.

You're Kurt from the Gosp of Thomas Yahoo group aren't you...:cover:

joy...

 

[Kurt31416]

I think this is the most interesting part when it comes to the history of this book. I wonder if this is one of the reasons it was not included?

I say that because Jesus said openly I have said nothing in secret and done all things openly.

This is always worth fleshing out!

Despite the hundreds of parallels to the Christian Gospels and especially the Epistle of James, there are no parallels whatsoever to the second century Gnostics. It seems to have been secret at that time. But common by the beginning of the third century because we have scraps from several copies.

So, it was around, and well known at the time the Christian Bible was forming. Easy to see why it wouldn't be included. It's most certainly the doubting Thomas GJohn rails against.

Differnces between Thomas and the Christian Gospels

• No walking on water
• No raising the dead
• No water into wine or other food transformations
• No miracles whatsoever
• No satan-god
• No angel-gods
• No demon-gods
• No son-of-god
• Jesus is a human
• Jesus doesn't speak for the Living Father
• Thomas wrote it, The Living Father not involved
• No Resurection
• No Second Coming/Judgement Day
• No Virgin Birth
• No praying
• No churches
• The Living Father never says or does anything and it's not clear the notion makes sense.
• You can cuss the Father, it doesn't matter
• No dogma, you are supposed to follow the Golden Rule instead.
• Etc. etc. etc.

Just all those wonderful sayings of Jesus, in a more original, concise form, with no superstiton from the viewpoint of science attached.

 

[Kurt31416]

You're Kurt from the Gosp of Thomas Yahoo group aren't you...:cover:

joy...

Hi, Yes I am. Thanks for welcoming me.

 

[Kurt31416]

Hey Ben, I've had problems twice where a moderator is accusing me of plagerism because of my "The Historical Jesus, The Mandaeans of John the Baptist, and the Place of Light" on your site.

[URL="http://magdelene.wordpress.com/2007/03/22/the-historical-jesus-the-mandaeans-of-john-the-baptist-the-place-of-light/"]http://magdelene.wordpress.com/2007/03/22/the-historical-jesus-the-mandaeans-of-john-the-baptist-the-place-of-light/[/URL]

If it's not too much trouble, could you add "Rick Van Vliet" to it. No problem if that's a hassle.

Rick Van Vliet

 

[Buttons*]

This reminds me of some threads I used to make I'll participate once it gets interesting. Also, probably, once school lets up a bit.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Hey Ben, I've had problems twice where a moderator is accusing me of plagerism because of my "The Historical Jesus, The Mandaeans of John the Baptist, and the Place of Light" on your site.

[URL="http://magdelene.wordpress.com/2007/03/22/the-historical-jesus-the-mandaeans-of-john-the-baptist-the-place-of-light/"]http://magdelene.wordpress.com/2007/03/22/the-historical-jesus-the-mandaeans-of-john-the-baptist-the-place-of-light/[/URL]

If it's not too much trouble, could you add "Rick Van Vliet" to it. No problem if that's a hassle.

Rick Van Vliet

Your wish is my command...

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/football/bob_blog/genie.jpg

 

[Kurt31416]

Uh, is that a fractal?

Thanks

 

[Mr Cheese]

Uh, is that a fractal?

Thanks

at the article on the blog page?

Yep....

my own creation....

I have it at 6400 by 4800 pixels

diamonds & pearls 1 poster from Zazzle.com for sale!
at a max of 2ft by 3ft for $20.....

 

[Vile Atheist]

Slightly off-topic.

It's quarter past five in the morning now. I look on the main page and I see this thread:

"Gospel of Thomas Part 1
by Mr. Cheese"

In my sleepy state, I read "Gospel of Cheese Part 1". If anyone knows of a religion that supports cheddar worship, do not hesitate to drop me a line.

 

[chilliwack]

Hi there, are there any places where I can find the Gospel of Thomas narrated? I know that there are a few audio books about it, but I just wanted a narration of the text? Does one exist anywhere?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Hi there, are there any places where I can find the Gospel of Thomas narrated? I know that there are a few audio books about it, but I just wanted a narration of the text? Does one exist anywhere?

don't think so....

I know a group I belong to and another one that flopped both intend and intended to do this...

Thomas isnt all that long though you know....

maybe something someon could do... there are public domain versions...and upload to internet archive.... hmmmm

 

[Mr Cheese]

someone did it!

The Gospel Of Thomas and the Nag Hammadi Library. Text to Audio

 

[chilliwack]

Ah thanks for replying. I think they are using a text reading program. I have done this before too to help to put prayers and saying out so people can enjoy them. Thanks for the link, I hope that someone with a nice voice reads it out someday.

 

[katiafish]

Very interesting.. What is the Golden rule?