Got curious about something... (regards abortion and father`s duties)

[MysticSang'ha]

and the woman by wearing her femidom.

The thing is that conception already having had happened suddenly the woman has more legal rights than the man over whether or not BOTH will be parents.

This makes no sense.

She must retain that right because she is the only one who is pregnant.

Once she has given birth, then it's up to the both of them to decide what to do next.

 

[Me Myself]

She must retain that right because she is the only one who is pregnant.

Once she has given birth, then it's up to the both of them to decide what to do next.

Wait, you mean both will decide individually?

 

[Alceste]

and the woman by wearing her femidom.

The thing is that conception already having had happened suddenly the woman has more legal rights than the man over whether or not BOTH will be parents.

This makes no sense.

If it still doesn't make sense after it had been repeatedly explained that the pregnancy is occurring INSIDE THE WOMAN'S BODY, causing irreparable damage, pain, sickness, loss of income, and possible death TO THE WOMAN, it will never make sense. I give up trying to explain it to you and urgently recommend you sign up for a remedial course in human biology before risking sex with any fertile woman.

 

[Me Myself]

If it still doesn't make sense after it had been repeatedly explained that the pregnancy is occurring INSIDE THE WOMAN'S BODY, causing irreparable damage, pain, sickness, loss of income, and possible death TO THE WOMAN, it will never make sense. I give up trying to explain it to you and urgently recommend you sign up for a remedial course in human biology before risking sex with any fertile woman.

You should know by now that your alleged concerns are completely unfounded.

If I made a woman pregnant I would be the father (not talking petty DNA, but BE the father) . I am talking about what makes sense legaly, given the slacks that women are given and the ones that men should be given too if the scenario was to be as presented in the OP.

 

[Alceste]

You should know by now that your alleged concerns are completely unfounded.

If I made a woman pregnant I would be the father (not talking petty DNA, but BE the father) . I am talking about what makes sense legaly, given the slacks that women are given and the ones that men should be given too if the scenario was to be as presented in the OP.

That's great. Be sure to communicate that to your sexual partners and I'm sure they will take it into consideration if they ever find themselves pregnant and need to decide what to do. A commitment like that can go a long way to influencing a woman's decision.

 

[Willamena]

and the woman by wearing her femidom.

The thing is that conception already having had happened suddenly the woman has more legal rights than the man over whether or not BOTH will be parents.

This makes no sense.

Actually, she has all the same legal rights as the man--no more and no less. What can be done with a woman's body is legally her call, and what can be done with a man's body is legally his call.

At least, in Canada.

 

[Me Myself]

That's great. Be sure to communicate that to your sexual partners and I'm sure they will take it into consideration if they ever find themselves pregnant and need to decide what to do. A commitment like that can go a long way to influencing a woman's decision.

Thank God in Guayaquil most women would never abort. While it is against the law it is too easy to get medication for such anyways.

 

[Alceste]

Thank God in Guayaquil most women would never abort. While it is against the law it is too easy to get medication for such anyways.

Why "too easy"? If women don't want it, as you claim, how can it be "too easy" to obtain?

 

[Me Myself]

Why "too easy"? If women don't want it, as you claim, how can it be "too easy" to obtain?

In general, anything from a drugstore is easy to obtain. They rarely ask for any prescriptions. So they just have to ask for the pill and they can have it, specially because it is supposed to help on I dont remember if it was heaches or whatnot, so they dont ask questions.


Naturaly, some would want it, I am merely saying most are pro life.

 

[Alceste]

In general, anything from a drugstore is easy to obtain. They rarely ask for any prescriptions. So they just have to ask for the pill and they can have it, specially because it is supposed to help on I dont remember if it was heaches or whatnot, so they dont ask questions.


Naturaly, some would want it, I am merely saying most are pro life.

You're not "merely" saying most women are pro-life, you're saying women who want a pill to induce a miscarriage shouldn't be able to access it as easily as they currently can. Why not? What process should the few women who DO want to terminate an unplanned pregnancy have to go through in order to get the pill?

Also, being pro-life doesn't mean a woman won't decide to terminate an unplanned pregnancy.

 

[Me Myself]

You're not "merely" saying most women are pro-life, you're saying women who want a pill to induce a miscarriage shouldn't be able to access it as easily as they currently can. Why not? What process should the few women who DO want to terminate an unplanned pregnancy have to go through in order to get the pill?

At least in Guayaquil, going to the pharmacy and asking for it.

I say they shouldnt because I value the life they are carrying and they are prone to do something horrible out of fear.

 

[Alceste]

At least in Guayaquil, going to the pharmacy and asking for it.

I say they shouldnt because I value the life they are carrying and they are prone to do something horrible out of fear.

Not everybody finds the prospect of inducing a miscarriage as horrible as the prospect of getting fat, squeezing ten pounds of solid matter through a hole the size of a golf ball, and letting go of all your aspirations in life forever.

Also, cultures that have irrational, punitive, judgmental views on abortion usually have irrational, punitive, judgmental views on single motherhood as well. If you're a woman, either way, you lose.

 

[Me Myself]

Not everybody finds the prospect of inducing a miscarriage as horrible as the prospect of getting fat, squeezing ten pounds of solid matter through a hole the size of a golf ball, and letting go of all your aspirations in life forever.

Also, cultures that have irrational, punitive, judgmental views on abortion usually have irrational, punitive, judgmental views on single motherhood as well. If you're a woman, either way, you lose.

either way, you had a life you have lived because someone let you live it, and an abortion will definetely make the child lose.

I understand your side of the argument, you dont see it as a human being until it is born. I simply dont look at it that way, and while I know you are well intended and we would probably agree on most other moral issues, I still see this look towards the child to be devaluing the importance of human life.

If we go by raw "humanity", a baby human after born is less inteligent than a lot of animals, cannot walk erect cannot talk, etc. We still know it is a human because IT IS A HUMAN!

Even though it has less inteligence than say, a dog, you would see it as a high depreciation to human value to put a dogs life as if it were more important even though the dog IS more inteligent than the baby in both their current forms. Probably way more independient too. The only reason a baby is valued over the dog is because we share specie and because of what the baby will become. there is no doubt that one can see the specie of a zygote as an homo sapiens, If we want to debate from inteligence we would still have problems, if we debate from nervious system there ARE humans that are born or have some disease in which they do not feel pain and we would not devalue their lifes to such an extent.

The taboos placed on women that they have to face (and should not have to face) because of raising as single moms or at early ages is uffle, but punishing the most inocent of all victims... its way worst.

And I dont say it to demonize anyone. Desperate people make desperate decisions, ridden by fear and the society is still going to govern in the ways of labeling their babies as if they were some kind of kidney rocks. All those things add up, I do am conscious of that, its not like I think I know a woman or a person simply by what they believe on yes or no abortion.

 

[Alceste]

either way, you had a life you have lived because someone let you live it, and an abortion will definetely make the child lose.

I understand your side of the argument, you dont see it as a human being until it is born. I simply dont look at it that way, and while I know you are well intended and we would probably agree on most other moral issues, I still see this look towards the child to be devaluing the importance of human life.

If we go by raw "humanity", a baby human after born is less inteligent than a lot of animals, cannot walk erect cannot talk, etc. We still know it is a human because IT IS A HUMAN!

Even though it has less inteligence than say, a dog, you would see it as a high depreciation to human value to put a dogs life as if it were more important even though the dog IS more inteligent than the baby in both their current forms. Probably way more independient too. The only reason a baby is valued over the dog is because we share specie and because of what the baby will become. there is no doubt that one can see the specie of a zygote as an homo sapiens, If we want to debate from inteligence we would still have problems, if we debate from nervious system there ARE humans that are born or have some disease in which they do not feel pain and we would not devalue their lifes to such an extent.

The taboos placed on women that they have to face (and should not have to face) because of raising as single moms or at early ages is uffle, but punishing the most inocent of all victims... its way worst.

And I dont say it to demonize anyone. Desperate people make desperate decisions, ridden by fear and the society is still going to govern in the ways of labeling their babies as if they were some kind of kidney rocks. All those things add up, I do am conscious of that, its not like I think I know a woman or a person simply by what they believe on yes or no abortion.

I don't actually place an exceptional value on human life when compared to other forms of life. I don't think that is rational, as it obscures the fact that we are one species in greater ecosystem consisting of millions of different species coexisting interdependently. It also ignores the fact that overpopulation in humans is causing extreme detriment to the viability of most other species.

Of course I value the actual, living, breathing, born persons in my life, and those I admire but don't know personally. That's an emotional attachment. It has no rational or empirical foundation. I valued the life of my childhood pet budgie more than I will ever value the life of Dick Cheney, for example. I cried when my budgie died. I'll be pleased when Dick Cheney dies. Emotional attachment is a terrible basis for ethics and law because it is totally subjective. I can not feel an emotional attachment to a "person" that does not exist - a hypothetical future person. Not unless I really want to have a child, and I have invested my hope of attaining this goal in the non-sentient glob of cells attached to my uterus.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The man pays child support for the baby.

The woman goes through 9 months of pregnancy with the possibility of suffering from morning sickness, stretch marks, and finally, puerperal fever. (There's also the possibility of death in more extreme cases.)

Seems to me that the "child support" the woman pays is arguably equally taxing, if you ask me.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The man pays child support for the baby.

The woman goes through 9 months of pregnancy with the possibility of suffering from morning sickness, stretch marks, and finally, puerperal fever. (There's also the possibility of death in more extreme cases.)

Seems to me that the "child support" the woman pays is arguably equally taxing, if you ask me.

Let's consider not just what happens DURING pregnancy, but AFTER pregnancy if the woman chooses to give birth.

Morning sickness is not in the morning. It was 24/7 for me for 4 months and I was camped out by the toilet.

Stretch marks in all the wrong places. My belly button looks really weird, too, that can only spring back to pre-baby status by cosmetic surgery.

I'm 4'11". Both my babies were over 8 pounds. My reproductive system has it's battle scars in order to have gestated and birthed them.

The birth of my first child was 15 hours of back labor where my son was flipped around facing the opposite direction. Besides breech position, back labor is considered a risk to both mother and child AND it's more painful than typical labor and delivery.

It took me 3 hours to push my son out. Let me rephrase....I'm 4'11". He was 8 pounds, 8 ounces.

Finally, I was under close supervision after I gave birth because I wound up losing too much blood. Had I not been with a qualified hospital staff, I might have met my demise that day.

I breastfed my kids until they weaned on their own. They are delightfully healthy as a result, with immune systems as strong as steel - they never get sick, seriously, NEVER - but the cost was my being there for them 24/7 for years ready to feed them ideal nutrition.

Finally, sleep deprivation is nothing to be laughed about when you consider that exhausted mothers are driving cars with their babies strapped in the back seat. I used to take mini-naps in the car when we'd be stopped in traffic or at a lengthy red light. And that was the case for me for years.

So......In spite of the legality of the ability for a father to relinquish his parental rights and duties, and I recognize that, I have no sympathy for anyone, man or woman, who thinks paying child support is unfair.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Let's consider not just what happens DURING pregnancy, but AFTER pregnancy if the woman chooses to give birth.

Morning sickness is not in the morning. It was 24/7 for me for 4 months and I was camped out by the toilet.

Stretch marks in all the wrong places. My belly button looks really weird, too, that can only spring back to pre-baby status by cosmetic surgery.

I'm 4'11". Both my babies were over 8 pounds. My reproductive system has it's battle scars in order to have gestated and birthed them.

The birth of my first child was 15 hours of back labor where my son was flipped around facing the opposite direction. Besides breech position, back labor is considered a risk to both mother and child AND it's more painful than typical labor and delivery.

It took me 3 hours to push my son out. Let me rephrase....I'm 4'11". He was 8 pounds, 8 ounces.

Finally, I was under close supervision after I gave birth because I wound up losing too much blood. Had I not been with a qualified hospital staff, I might have met my demise that day.

I breastfed my kids until they weaned on their own. They are delightfully healthy as a result, with immune systems as strong as steel - they never get sick, seriously, NEVER - but the cost was my being there for them 24/7 for years ready to feed them ideal nutrition.

Finally, sleep deprivation is nothing to be laughed about when you consider that exhausted mothers are driving cars with their babies strapped in the back seat. I used to take mini-naps in the car when we'd be stopped in traffic or at a lengthy red light. And that was the case for me for years.

So......In spite of the legality of the ability for a father to relinquish his parental rights and duties, and I recognize that, I have no sympathy for anyone, man or woman, who thinks paying child support is unfair.

I thought that merely what happens during the pregnancy was enough to tip the scales against the "unfairness" argument. What you mentioned above completely settles it, in my opinion.

Everything seems so easy to imagine when it's only on paper. No man will ever be able to go through childbirth or experience how painful it is, and I think that recognizing this and taking it into account would enable more men to approach such topics from a more reasonable standpoint.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I thought that merely what happens during the pregnancy was enough to tip the scales against the "unfairness" argument. What you mentioned above completely settles it, in my opinion.

Everything seems so easy to imagine when it's only on paper. No man will ever be able to go through childbirth or experience how painful it is, and I think that recognizing this and taking it into account would enable more men to approach such topics from a more reasonable standpoint.

I'd have to say that passing a kidney stone is pretty comparable as far as the pain goes. I've given birth multiple times and I've passed kidney stones multiple times....except that one doesn't have 9 months of bodily transformation before passing it.

And the kidney stone would actually have to be over 8 pounds.

 

[Alceste]

I'd have to say that passing a kidney stone is pretty comparable as far as the pain goes. I've given birth multiple times and I've passed kidney stones multiple times....except that one doesn't have 9 months of bodily transformation before passing it.

And the kidney stone would actually have to be over 8 pounds.

And I suppose most of the time it would require a doctor to slice the end of your penis open to let the kidney stone pass without tearing your fragile genital skin willy nilly (har har), then stitch it back together after the fact.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

And I suppose most of the time it would require a doctor to slice the end of your penis open to let the kidney stone pass without tearing your fragile genital skin willy nilly (har har), then stitch it back together after the fact.

LOL I forgot about the episiotomy and its scars.

Happened to me. I had a median 2nd degree episiotomy done to me during delivery. And without my consent, too.