Greek Exit form the Euro

[columbus]

The Greeks should not be made to pay for the actions of their government.

So the rest of Eurostan should?

Why shouldn't Greeks be paying for what their elected leaders chose?
Tom

 

[Flankerl]

Why doesn't the EU just cancel the debt placed upon Greece? It would make things go a whole lot more smoothly.

Uhm so why should anyone else pay his debts?
Why should Portugal, Italy, Spain.... repay the debts?

Or well why should the average EU citizen repay his debts?

The Greeks should not be made to pay for the actions of their government.

Which they re-elected again and again. All was good when the EU investments gave them a life which was far above their means.

Isn't this similar to what Hitler did?

"In Billions for the Bankers, Debts for the People (1984), Sheldon Emry commented:

Germany issued debt-free and interest-free money from 1935 and on, accounting for its startling rise from the depression to a world power in 5 years. Germany financed its entire government and war operation from 1935 to 1945 without gold and without debt, and it took the whole Capitalist and Communist world to destroy the German power over Europe and bring Europe back under the heel of the Bankers. Such history of money does not even appear in the textbooks of public (government) schools today."
Web of Debt - Thinking Outside The Box: How A Bankrupt Germany Solved Its Infrastructure Problems

Wow so much crap.

So what happens when a country goes broke and defaults.
There must be a way back somehow.

you cant just throw them all in a debtors prison.

as it stands both Greece and the lenders lose the lot.

- country defaults
- for the immediate future its all ****
- your money gets devaluated
- your weak currency invites investment

But Greece can't devaluate the Euro.

 

[Revoltingest]

Isn't this similar to what Hitler did?

"In Billions for the Bankers, Debts for the People (1984), Sheldon Emry commented:

Germany issued debt-free and interest-free money from 1935 and on, accounting for its startling rise from the depression to a world power in 5 years. Germany financed its entire government and war operation from 1935 to 1945 without gold and without debt, and it took the whole Capitalist and Communist world to destroy the German power over Europe and bring Europe back under the heel of the Bankers. Such history of money does not even appear in the textbooks of public (government) schools today."
Web of Debt - Thinking Outside The Box: How A Bankrupt Germany Solved Its Infrastructure Problems

Hitler supposedly (per the link) required a Mark's worth of work/goods for each issued Mark.
Greece just pleasured itself with the money.

 

[columbus]

Greece is probably going to default so the investors won't see their money back either way. Forgiving the debt would be a kinder act

Do you earn, save, invest, or spend in Euros? I'm gathering that you don't.

Boy, the Brits are looking pretty smart these days. Way more than when they joined Bush's "coalition of the willing".
Tom

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yeah, but Greece was like really awesome and the pinnacle of civilization like 3,000 years ago. Let's cut them some slack. I'm sure they still got it in them.

 

[columbus]

Yeah, but Greece was like really awesome and the pinnacle of civilization like 3,000 years ago. Let's cut them some slack. I'm sure they still got it in them.

You're forcing me to tell my worst Greek joke with the "got it in them" crack.

Know how the Greeks separate the men from the boys?

With a crowbar.
Tom

 

[Wirey]

You're forcing me to tell my worst Greek joke with the "got it in them" crack.

Know how the Greeks separate the men from the boys?

With a crowbar.
Tom

Why won't the Greeks emigrate? They hate to leave their friend's behind.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why won't the Greeks emigrate? They hate to leave their friend's behind.

Hey, they're bending over backwards to solve this problem!

 

[Wirey]

Hey, they're bending over backwards to solve this problem!

They'd better, or they'll get it in the end.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

So the rest of Eurostan should?

Why shouldn't Greeks be paying for what their elected leaders chose?
Tom

Because they elected those leaders based on lies. Those political leaders lied to the Greek people as much as the EU when they doctored the books and made their financial situation look better than what it actually was. Why shouldn't you be made to pay for your local representative's gambling debts which he passed off as a state expense? Because they're not legally yours.

Uhm so why should anyone else pay his debts?
Why should Portugal, Italy, Spain.... repay the debts?

Or well why should the average EU citizen repay his debts?

Strawman. I'm not suggesting nobody anywhere ever should pay their debts. They should only pay their debts if they can afford to; which the Greek people clearly can't. The situation in Greece was only ever going to get worse since they're paying debt interest back with debt monies. Portugal, Spain & Italy should keep paying their debts back as long as they can afford to. But they shouldn't impoverish their citizens in the process.

Which they re-elected again and again. All was good when the EU investments gave them a life which was far above their means.

Again, they elected that government based on lies and promises that they would take a firm stance on Greece's creditors which they did not. They kowtowed and ordinary citizens paid for the laxity of governing officials and tax evasion of the affluent. It wasn't just that the Greek government doctored the books; they were facing endemic tax evasion and avoidance from the better off.

Do you earn, save, invest, or spend in Euros? I'm gathering that you don't.

Boy, the Brits are looking pretty smart these days. Way more than when they joined Bush's "coalition of the willing".
Tom

I don't need to invest in Euros to realise people are being crapped on for the terrible decisions of their political leaders. I can empathise with that.

Just to clarify, would these "Brits" be people from the same country that got together along with Greece and host of others in the 1950s to collectively agree to forgive Germany's wartime debt so it could rebuild? What happened? People lost money but Germany (the half not controlled by Communists, anyway) did not become a failed state on the periphery of Europe. The Greeks are close to defaulting; the creditors aren't going to get their money back either way. But there's no need to tank the Greek economy and ruin their country's reputation out of spite. That won't benefit anyone but it will harm a lot of people beyond the ability to attach a currency figure to it.

 

[columbus]

Because they elected those leaders based on lies.

I did not vote for George W Bush. Most US voters didn't. But we are still stuck paying off the gigantic deficit he ran up.
That's the way it works.
The Greeks are even less interested in their country's welfare. They still want to vote on whether or not to pay for stuff that they already got.
Well, guess what? They don't get another vote on the matter. They have already put more responsible people in charge of the decisions. Angela Merkel now has more say in Greece than the government does.
Tom

 

[columbus]

I don't need to invest in Euros to realise people are being crapped on for the terrible decisions of their political leaders

I take it that is a "No, other Europeans will be picking up the tab for my largesse."
Tom

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I did not vote for George W Bush. Most US voters didn't. But we are still stuck paying off the gigantic deficit he ran up.
That's the way it works.

Okay, I was actually talking about the Greeks themselves, didn't realise we were talking about other governments to. That's my mistake. And you'll be stuck paying off a debt you didn't ask for forever if your attitude is just "that's the way it works". Nobody ever improved their lot with that attitude.

The Greeks are even less interested in their country's welfare. They still want to vote on whether or not to pay for stuff that they already got.

They didn't get a say on whether the Eurozone would bail them out; they were just told they would be. And then they were dictated a set of conditions for which their consent wasn't asked. What would Greece pay the existing debt off with anyway? The only option they have is 'more debt monies' which doesn't do a thing to solve the problem. It doesn't matter how hard you squeeze a penniless man for money - he's still penniless.

Well, guess what? They don't get another vote on the matter. They have already put more responsible people in charge of the decisions. Angela Merkel now has more say in Greece than the government does.
Tom

And who are you to decide what the Greek people can or cannot vote on? I don't recall the Greek people putting Merkel in charge of their economy. I seem to recall the Eurozone doing that without their permission.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I take it that is a "No, other Europeans will be picking up the tab for my largesse."
Tom

And how do you arrive at this conclusion? I'm not Greek, nor have I ever had any assets in Greece. Nor have I suggested other people should pick up the tab for my financial decisions. I'm not arguing out of personal interest here. There's no hypocrisy for you to pick up on.

 

[columbus]

Okay, I was actually talking about the Greeks themselves, didn't realise we were talking about other governments to. That's my mistake. And you'll be stuck paying off a debt you didn't ask for forever if your attitude is just "that's the way it works". Nobody ever improved their lot with that attitude.

No, I'm talking about the reality. I'm stuck with the debt because I live in a stable democracy.
The Greeks have more experience with democracy than anybody. Being willing to believe lies doesn't mean they are owed another bailout.

Tom

 

[columbus]

What would Greece pay the existing debt off with anyway?

Tax income.
The problem the Greeks have is that tax evasion is a national sport.
Tom

 

[columbus]

And how do you arrive at this conclusion?

Because you keep insisting that someone should bail out Greece, but it doesn't appear to be you.
Tom

 

[Flankerl]

Strawman. I'm not suggesting nobody anywhere ever should pay their debts. They should only pay their debts if they can afford to; which the Greek people clearly can't. The situation in Greece was only ever going to get worse since they're paying debt interest back with debt monies. Portugal, Spain & Italy should keep paying their debts back as long as they can afford to. But they shouldn't impoverish their citizens in the process.

Your proposal would completely ruin the entire Euro. As it would ruin any currency.

Oh and they can opt out of paying back their debts, default and adopt another currency.

Again, they elected that government based on lies and promises that they would take a firm stance on Greece's creditors which they did not. They kowtowed and ordinary citizens paid for the laxity of governing officials and tax evasion of the affluent. It wasn't just that the Greek government doctored the books; they were facing endemic tax evasion and avoidance from the better off.

Oh no the poor electorate didn't know about anything...
So they joined the EEC in 1981 with Statistics that were completely forged and basically made up.
Since then they had 14 legislative elections. Every 2.4 years a new election.

Fourteen elections in 34 years. I think we have passed the point where the electorate couldn't have done anything quite a long time ago.

And they "weren't" facing endemic tax evasion, they are. Because its a Greek sport which they will never change. Everyone does it.


Also they elected SYRIZA based upon their utopian promises. Well that's their problem.

And who are you to decide what the Greek people can or cannot vote on? I don't recall the Greek people putting Merkel in charge of their economy. I seem to recall the Eurozone doing that without their permission.

That is simply untrue. The SYRIZA government ratified the MFFA agreement of the Second Economic Adjustment Programme for Greece on the 20th March 2015.
They signed the deal and all the stuff that came with it.

And now the proposed Third Economic Adjustment Programme for Greece came to a halt. SYRIZA doesn't want to do it. Well too bad that a deal isn't decided by one side.

 

[esmith]

Well maybe one should really consider what the problems could be. The EU and the rest of the Western world can handle the collapse of Greece, but then one has to look at the other southern European countries and the possibility of those countries also having the same problems would cause a major financial ripple (maybe tilde-wave) across Europe and the US.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/18/u...ing-for-greece-and-europe.html?abt=0002&abg=1

Now Puerto Rico is facing a very similar problem.....promises made that can not be kept. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/b...-says-islands-debts-are-not-payable.html?_r=0

Some of the US major cities are also looking at the same problems. Politicians making monetary promises that they can't afford.. old news that hasn't been talked about recently. Maybe this crises in Greece will wake the American taxpayer up to the idea that the "it would be nice/decent/whatever" spend-spend-spend does come home to roost; but I doubt it. Free is awful hard to give up.

 

[Wirey]

Politicians making monetary promises that they can't afford.. old news that hasn't been talked about recently. Maybe this crises in Greece will wake the American taxpayer up to the idea that the "it would be nice/decent/whatever" spend-spend-spend does come home to roost; but I doubt it. Free is awful hard to give up.

People keep voting for liars who then bankrupt them with foreign wars and 'bailouts' that we pay for. If that money was spent at home, imagine the difference it could make.