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Gun rights victory today!

Magic Man

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Revoltingest said:
Let's not limit the discussion to handguns. A match grade M1A looks pretty useful to me. But you could use an AR-15 variant if you're a little fella.
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Well, the recent ruling that started this was about handguns. However, for this part, sure, let's go with rifles and bigger guns. Still, they're not going to do much if the government does become a tyranny. I'll stick to other methods, if necessary, ones that might actually work.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
mball1297 said:
Well, the recent ruling that started this was about handguns. However, for this part, sure, let's go with rifles and bigger guns. Still, they're not going to do much if the government does become a tyranny. I'll stick to other methods, if necessary, ones that might actually work.
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As I read the ruling, it was broader than handguns. The law struck down was about handguns though, as I recall.

We never know what methods will work until we face the problem & overcome it. I'll consider all options.
 
Aquitaine

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
Owning guns to be free from government does seem a remote & absurd belief in this day & age....as long as we have relatively safe governments (unlike Afghanistan or Somalia). I look around & see peace everywhere, see very few cops, unrestricted travel within our border, gun stores, diverse churches & bacon openly sold. Why worry? Well, I don't worry. But consider history. All countries change over time. Even the US & Australia once murdered & otherwise brutalized its own inhabitants. It seems unlikely to happen again when we look around us now, but who is to say that things can never change for the worse? Who can name the empire in which people never had to fear their own government? A misbehaving authoritarian cabal would certainly find life easier if the populace had fewer means to resist being under their thumb. To control us, there are some powers they'd like to have over us: economic (limit our ability to make a living), political (control who is in office), weapons (neuter the physical ability to resist), & knowledge (limit info....eg, state run media (NPR), internet kill switch, book banning). Looking at my list, can't everyone see at least a little bit of potentially creeping evil in America? Yes, yes, it's great here....far from evil, but no matter who you are, someone is always working to limit your civil liberties in some way. Such efforts could expand. It is possible.....say 9.8% probability, that within 200 years, we could face an authoritarian gov't needing to be overthrown by force. For me, that justifies private gun ownership.
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Revoltingest said:
Currently our government isn't an enemy requiring overthrow....they need watching, lobbying & engaged voting. But government is loathe to address civil unrest & protect the weak. In bucolic & progressive Ann Arbor, we had a student riot a couple decades back. People were assaulted & buildings attacked. The City sent in their forces, who promptly abandoned their vehicles & fled, only to cordon off the area, letting the melee continue unabated. After Katrina, the government was anxious to illegally take citizens' weapons, but loathe to secure the area. Korean grocers in LA riots needed their weapons to survive, since the cops kept their distance. Cop friends of mine candidly say they're not here to protect us. They can't. Some encourage owning guns for self-defense, but others prefer that only the cops have guns...it's their own (not our) safety that concerns them.

I've worked with many Sikh engineers over the years. We've had a common bond in that we come from a tradition of carrying & respecting weapons as a force for good. My Glock is a symbol to me every bit as much as their kirpan is to them. Like fire insurance, the odds are that I'll never need to use it. But being prepared for the unthinkable is a necessary part of avoiding it in the first place. A little fear in the heart of Nancy Pelosi is a good thing.
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Thanks for taking the time to write a proper reply, however I still disagree.

Honestly, as time goes by and the US/UK make the painfull transition to 2nd and 3rd world countries, the only damage I can see personal firearms doing is to other civilians and militias anyways. Let's assume that tomorrow the US Government is gonna start turning into a tyrant: it'll be gradual, and mostly economic IMO. Debt, lower social mobility, more entertainment outlets, and more bias Media: more FOX New's basically. Education will continue to decrease and the people will be set on one another. Look at how it is nowadays: Left vs Right, Liberals vs. Neo-Cons, Blacks vs White, Christians vs Muslims etc. It'll be like that 'cept worse.

Meanwhile the Government and the special interests that influence them will constantly have the upper-hand: snooping on private e-mails and wire-tapping etc (which IIRC is already happening with the USA PATRIOT Act) and better technology. It's simply not possible to overthrow a modern high-tech Government with a bunch of small firearms. What'll happen is propoganda will rise and as society decays the media will just blame it on different minorities within society (Muslims, Liberals, Blacks, Socialists, Pacifists etc). So all you'll get is the people just killing each other off.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Paul Rusco said:
Thanks for taking the time to write a proper reply, however I still disagree.
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Of course! What fun would it be otherwise?
Honestly, as time goes by and the US/UK make the painfull transition to 2nd and 3rd world countries, the only damage I can see personal firearms doing is to other civilians and militias anyways. Let's assume that tomorrow the US Government is gonna start turning into a tyrant: it'll be gradual, and mostly economic IMO. Debt, lower social mobility, higher entertainment outlets, and more bias Media: more FOX New's basically. Education will continue to decrease and the people will be set on one another. Look at how it is nowadays: Left vs Right, Liberals vs. Neo-Cons, Blacks vs White, Christians vs Muslims etc. It'll be like that 'cept worse.

Meanwhile the Government and the special interests that influence them will constantly have the upper-hand: snooping on private e-mails and wire-tapping etc (which IIRC is already happening with the USA PATRIOT Act) and better technology. It's simply not possible to overthrow a modern high-tech Government with a bunch of small firearms. What'll happen is propoganda will rise and as society decays the media will just blame it on different minorities within society (Muslims, Liberals, Blacks, Socialists, Pacifists etc). So all you'll get is the people just killing each other off.
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I know that you could be right. I just choose to support gun rights because it's possible that I could be right.....or at least not so wrong.
 
Aquitaine

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
Of course! What fun would it be otherwise?



I know that you could be right. I just choose to support gun rights because it's possible that I could be right.....or at least not so wrong.
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:shrug: Meh, who knows?

But I am curious though to wonder out of all the supporters of private gun ownership in the US favour it purely because of the "us vs. tyrannical Government" argument.

I guess the "us vs. criminal" argument is somewhat similar except I suppose the odds of a successfull self-defence are more likely. However I honestly think even against criminals the odds are very unlikely that you'll have time or advantage to be able to grab your pistol and kill the criminal (especially if the criminal is armed too). I imagine more people die from cases involving bad judgement on the gun-owner's part, or accidental discharge etc etc.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Paul Rusco said:
:shrug: Meh, who knows?

But I am curious though to wonder out of all the supporters of private gun ownership in the US favour it purely because of the "us vs. tyrannical Government" argument.

I guess the "us vs. criminal" argument is somewhat similar except I suppose the odds of a successfull self-defence are more likely. However I honestly think even against criminals the odds are very unlikely that you'll have time or advantage to be able to grab your pistol and kill the criminal (especially if the criminal is armed too). I imagine more people die from cases involving bad judgement on the gun-owner's part, or accidental discharge etc etc.
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If you subscribed to the NRA monthly magazine, you'd see snippets of examples of successful use of guns in self-defense culled from the media. (Much of the time, just presenting the weapon causes the offender to flee, diffusing the situation.) You might also look up the works of Gary Kleck, who has done extensive research on the topic. I've been in just a couple situations where threats presented themselves, & I had time to draw a handgun...sometimes without being noticed, btw. I thank my lucky stars that nothing ever went to the next stage. Fortunately, I no longer have to handle security & maintenance issues in downtown buildings during the wee hours.
 
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Aquitaine

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
If you subscribed to the NRA monthly magazine, you'd see snippets of examples of successful use of guns in self-defense culled from the media. (Much of the time, just presenting the weapon causes the offender to flee, diffusing the situation.) You might also look up the works of Gary Kleck, who has done extensive research on the topic. I've been in just a couple situations where threats presented themselves, & I had time to draw a handgun...sometimes without being noticed, btw. I thank my lucky stars that nothing ever went to the next stage. Fortunately, I no longer have to handle security & maintenance issues in downtown buildings during the wee hours.
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To what degree do you believe Civilians in the US should be able to arm themselves? Anything they can afford?
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Paul Rusco said:
To what degree do you believe Civilians in the US should be able to arm themselves? Anything they can afford?
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I don't know. I've considered the origins of the 2nd Amendment, & find that it should mean militarily capable arms. But I don't have an opinion (yet) about how far to carry it. It's possible that practical considerations could bump into Constitutional ones, eg, artillery. Some rights have stages & conditions. To own an ordinary bolt action rifle is easy. To carry a handgun requires a license & training. To own a fully automatic rifle requires a very very expensive license. To own what a Blackwater (or whatever their name de jour is) owns must be difficult indeed.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Mestemia said:
I am unaware of any place in the USA where a civilian is legally allowed to own any functional weapon that is fully automatic, regardless of the permits they have.
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There could be some locales where it's prohibited, but yes, you can get one.
(Please use it responsibly.)
Is it Illegal to have fully automatic weapons in the U.S.? - Yahoo! Answers

What do you mean by a "Blackwater"?
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It's a private contractor which performs military functions for the gov't.
 
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DallasApple

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
YAY!!!!!

I get to carry a loaded weapon on a DART TRAIN!!!!!

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love

Dallas
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
DallasApple said:
Well START a petition!

I want the RIGHT to get in a gun showdown over a ZERO bar!..What about if they are running out of coke slurpee!!!!!
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Hmmmm...perhaps I spoke prematurely. In all seriousness though, I'm uncomfortable with jokes about gunplay.
It's a very serious responsibility, & our image needs to be beyond reproach...despite our being reproached continually.
 
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