CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Great question. I've been waiting to hear Sincerly's response now for two days. Where did he go?
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haalmah harah: "a young woman is pregnant"
- Thread starter gnostic
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
No matter what the Hebrew Scriptures say, fundy Christians have to make the Law unimportant. Paul goes to great lengths to make the Law unimportant, yet Christians still need "laws" to govern themselves. Where did those laws come from? The traditions of the early Church fathers? Where did the "tradition" about Jesus' birth come from? Traditions? Plus a little creative misquoting?
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi I T, You are not without understanding of what prophecy means. GOD has given to Ahaz by Isaiah the same prophetic sign of the "seed of the woman" seen in Gen.3:15. It is still "future", at that time, and would not be fulfilled until the birth of Jesus Christ.
Again, """"2Kings 17:13, is a record of the dealings of the kings of Israel(kingdom of Judah and kingdom of Israel); Notice the information, "Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, [and by] all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments [and] my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets""""".
In the places of worship, those instructions were to be read in the ears of the people---every Sabbath day.
Hi Gnostic, In my two paragraphs, I never likened prophecies and Laws to one another. That is your false manipulations.
I answered Mike's assertions in a previous post.
Gnostic, you left out a group of people that were to be obedient to the Laws given by GOD----Those "sojourners" whose lived among the Jewish people who choose to have GOD as their GOD or just temporary.
Also, those who made GOD their GOD was to be considered as one "home-born"/put no difference in their relationship to GOD or one another.----They were all "Believers" in the sight of GOD.
Hi I T, You are not without understanding of what prophecy means. GOD has given to Ahaz by Isaiah the same prophetic sign of the "seed of the woman" seen in Gen.3:15. It is still "future", at that time, and would not be fulfilled until the birth of Jesus Christ.
Again, """"2Kings 17:13, is a record of the dealings of the kings of Israel(kingdom of Judah and kingdom of Israel); Notice the information, "Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, [and by] all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments [and] my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets""""".
In the places of worship, those instructions were to be read in the ears of the people---every Sabbath day.
Hi Gnostic, In my two paragraphs, I never likened prophecies and Laws to one another. That is your false manipulations.
I answered Mike's assertions in a previous post.
Gnostic, you left out a group of people that were to be obedient to the Laws given by GOD----Those "sojourners" whose lived among the Jewish people who choose to have GOD as their GOD or just temporary.
Also, those who made GOD their GOD was to be considered as one "home-born"/put no difference in their relationship to GOD or one another.----They were all "Believers" in the sight of GOD.
The persistent refusal to respond is pitifully irresponsible if not cowardly.
Hi Jayhawker Soule,
Could you give me what you see the sign is in Isaiah 8?
Thanks,
Fletch
Hi Sincerly,
I have some news for you, "seed of the woman" does not imply virgin birth in any way, shape, nor matter. Scripture easily proves this so:
Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly , that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Gen 24:60 And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.
Lev 22:13 But if the priest's daughter be a widow, or divorced , and have no seed, and is returned unto her father's house, as in her youth, she shall eat of her father's meat: but there shall no stranger at thereof.
1 Sam 2:20 And Eli blessed Elkanah and his wife, and said , The LORD give thee seed of this woman for the loan which is lent to the LORD. And they went unto their own home. 21 And the LORD visited Hannah, so that she conceived , and bare three sons and two daughters. And the child Samuel grew before the LORD.
Take all of Judah's sins, add them allllllllllllllllll together and God punished them for 70 years of exile. Not more nor less.
That said, of course the kingdom of Israel was and will be to the end times caught up in a world wide false snare religion that errors through wine, has weaned from the milk teachers, takes here a little and there a little from the Hebrew Scripture to snare people into it, is rest for the weary, uses a non-Hebrew language, and has covenant with death that they think will hide them from the scourge to come. See Isaiah 24&28 for details.
But don't apply that to Judah. Judah was punished for allllll the sins you can find in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Fletch
PS See how silly it is to consider Mary "the woman" instead of Eve:
12 And the man said , Mary whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat . 13 And the LORD God said unto Mary, What is this that thou hast done ? And Mary said , The serpent beguiled me , and I did eat . 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go , and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and Mary, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto Mary he said , I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
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gnostic
The Lost One
Jayhawker Soule said:
Well, sincerly seemed quick to respond to my posts.
I'd guess that I'm a far easier target, because I am neither Jewish nor Christian. And blame my lack of belief as lack of understanding of the text.
And whenever he doesn't want to answer directly what I am writing, he take an easy route and accusing me of not being a Christian (and therefore, couldn't possibly understand), and that of I'd view the bible as a myth.
I think he (sincerly) know that you (Jayhawker) would know the Tanakh (or OT) better than I, especially since you can read and understand the Tanakh in Hebrew. Hence, you will seldom get a response from him, if your replies are contrary to his belief.
I'm totally different kettle of fish. Like sincerly, I only know how to read and understand the bible in English. The difference between him and me, is that I read the passage (like 7:14) along with the rest of the text in Isaiah 7 and 8, and he won't. He would claim greater authority because of what Gabriel (who is never mentioned at all, in Matthew 1 and 2) said this-or-that in Matthew 1 and 2. So any logical reasoning go out the windows, because of Gabriel say-so.
I have zero interest in engaging with you.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by CG Didymus
QuoteOriginally Posted by Jayhawker Soule
sincerly, what is your translation of ha-almah harah and upon what do you base it?
:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule
sincerly, what is your translation of ha-almah harah and upon what do you base it?
Great question. I've been waiting to hear Sincerly's response now for two days. Where did he go?
Hi Jay, isn't that an ad hominem comment?
Hi CG D, I have been doing a little research and had other obligations with priority over the forums.
"""
יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל. 14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
"""
Jay, this is still a future event. The "prophetess" son was NOT to be called "Immanuel". 7:22 says all that are left in the land would eat "butter and honey."
Approx. 100 earlier, king Jehoshaphat had a similar experience the children of Moab and Ammon came to battle. GOD likewise said "the battle is not yours, but GOD'S". In vs.20, "And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper."
When Judah looked upon the scene there were only dead bodies.(2Chron. 20:1-24)
Ahaz refused to do so. Ahaz had the "record of the kings", but ,also, was reminded of what would become of evil in the end of the the history of the earth when the "seed of the woman"/ Jesus/ would put an end to all evil. (seen in Isa.7:14)
Matthew was right in his application of that verse to Mary and the birth of Jesus when he wrote the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.(That Gospel.)
Everyone who reads it has that same choice---Believe or Reject.
QuoteOriginally Posted by Jayhawker Soule
sincerly, what is your translation of ha-almah harah and upon what do you base it?
:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule
sincerly, what is your translation of ha-almah harah and upon what do you base it?
Great question. I've been waiting to hear Sincerly's response now for two days. Where did he go?
Hi Jay, isn't that an ad hominem comment?
Hi CG D, I have been doing a little research and had other obligations with priority over the forums.
"""
יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל. 14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
"""
Jay, this is still a future event. The "prophetess" son was NOT to be called "Immanuel". 7:22 says all that are left in the land would eat "butter and honey."
Approx. 100 earlier, king Jehoshaphat had a similar experience the children of Moab and Ammon came to battle. GOD likewise said "the battle is not yours, but GOD'S". In vs.20, "And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper."
When Judah looked upon the scene there were only dead bodies.(2Chron. 20:1-24)
Ahaz refused to do so. Ahaz had the "record of the kings", but ,also, was reminded of what would become of evil in the end of the the history of the earth when the "seed of the woman"/ Jesus/ would put an end to all evil. (seen in Isa.7:14)
Matthew was right in his application of that verse to Mary and the birth of Jesus when he wrote the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.(That Gospel.)
Everyone who reads it has that same choice---Believe or Reject.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi Gnostic, The Authority is much greater and doesn't rest with Gabriel(he was only the messenger)IT was in the Authority of GOD the Father who sent Jesus to fulfill the plan of Salvation. The "context" is the entire Bible(Scriptures).
It characterizes the evasion, not the person - unless, of course, the evasion typifies the person.Originally Posted by CG Didymus
QuoteOriginally Posted by Jayhawker Soule
sincerly, what is your translation of ha-almah harah and upon what do you base it?
:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule
sincerly, what is your translation of ha-almah harah and upon what do you base it?
Great question. I've been waiting to hear Sincerly's response now for two days. Where did he go?
Hi Jay, isn't that an ad hominem comment?
That is not what the Hebrew says. It is simply what you want it to say. Your "little research" is a sham.
You are babbling. On what grounds do you translate 'harah' as 'shall conceive' given that the verb 'harah' is 3rd person singular masculine past tense?
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi Fletch, your verses were correct in their application.
However, if you have been following my posts, you would know that "the seed of the woman" refers to Gen.3:15 alone.
And that "seed" would put an end to all "evil" and usher in a new "heaven and earth" upon which the Redeemed from this present earth would reside .
Fletch, Before the 70 years of exile/captivity, the "kingdom of Israel" had already separated from GOD. That is the reason they and Syria were threatening Judah.( which was disobedient to the GOD that had been long-suffering with them).
While Judah had been released from Babylonian captivity, they were ruled by the Medio-Persian Empire followed by the Grecian Empire and finally by the Roman Empire----which sent the Jewish people into all the world.
Jesus, Himself, declared that as "nation"----"your house is left unto you desolate". (Matt.23:38) and that fulfilled Dan.9:24.
Not silly, because Eve was the "mother" of all living humans--of whom Mary was the promised mother to bear that "Seed" which came the secure the freedom from the penalty of Sin and secure the salvation promised to all repentant Believers---thereby, crushing the evil head of the adversary.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
These verses really don't bother me, I see it as pointing to our inner being, where the outside world has never touched, in other words, the inner Child, the Christ is born from there, this could be called the virgin, a place that has never been touched by the carnal world.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi Jay, The "evasion" has/had a named name.
The "evasion" is a tactic of your making. Are you projecting?
אדני 'Adonay =Therefore the Lord
נתן nathan =himself shall give
אות 'owth =you a sign;
עלמה `almah=Behold, a virgin
הרה hareh=shall conceive,
ילד yalad=and bear
בן ben=a son,
קרא qara' = and shall call
שם shem = his name
עמנואל `Immanuw'el = Immanuel
Any sham is from you. Your "ha-almah harah" isn't "almah hareh".
see above. Looks like more projection from you.
- What part of speech is 'hareh' and upon what do you base this claim?
- What is your Hebrew source for "almah hareh"?
- How would you translate "ha-almah harah"?
Hi Jayhawker,
I did not read your post too carefully and now see you never made any implication that the sign was the almah and I apologize making it seem that you had.-Fletch
Sincerly, I see in Isaiah 7:14 that you have an indefinite article "a" in front of almah. The Hebrew text has the definite article of "ha" which means "the/this". Hope this is just a minor oversight. Also, to be perfectly clear, do you see the woman as Eve in "seed of the woman"in Gen3?
Fletch
I did not read your post too carefully and now see you never made any implication that the sign was the almah and I apologize making it seem that you had.-Fletch
Sincerly, I see in Isaiah 7:14 that you have an indefinite article "a" in front of almah. The Hebrew text has the definite article of "ha" which means "the/this". Hope this is just a minor oversight. Also, to be perfectly clear, do you see the woman as Eve in "seed of the woman"in Gen3?
Fletch
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It does not mean 'this' - "this maiden" would be "ha-almah ha-zot."
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi Jay, I have shown you the first two and the last isn't a part of the Isa.7:14 verse.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
No! I see the "seed of the woman" as prophetic(and scripturally) thousands of years from Eve.
I quoted the Mesoretic text---and the rendering of that text into English.
You have shown absolutely nothing - despite being repeatedly asked for reference.
See ...The Hebrew is, in fact, הָעַלְמָה הָרָה and your mind-numbing inability to recognize and/or acknowledge this is simply disgusting.
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