sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi Jay, I posted (the copied) Mesoretic text and the translation. I'll accept that translation rather than yours.
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haalmah harah: "a young woman is pregnant"
- Thread starter gnostic
- Start date
Hi Jay, I posted (the copied) Mesoretic text and the translation. I'll accept that translation rather than yours.
No, you did not (which is why you repeatedly refuse to cite your reference). Please either show your Hebrew source or stop your pathetic and ignorant deceit.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi Jay, Yes, I did. see my #334 post and it was copied from the Masoretic text.
Hi Sincerly,
Could you make it perfectly clear to me. Do you see "the woman" of Genesis 3 as Eve or do you see it as Mary. You do agree that "seed of the woman" does not imply a virgin birth do you not? Thanks.
Hi Jayhawker,
Thank you very much for the correction, I did not know that. For lurkers, here is a link that confirms his statement in Scripture, used some 699 times according to that link.
I looked to see where I saw it used in 7:14 and it was the Net Bible translation. The Net Bible often has better footnotes than translation.
For this reason the sovereign master himself will give you a confirming sign. 1 Look, this 2 young woman 3 is about to conceive 4 and will give birth to a son. You, young woman, will name him 5 Immanuel. 6
2 tn Heb “the young woman.” The Hebrew article has been rendered as a demonstrative pronoun (“this”
in the translation to bring out its force. It is very likely that Isaiah pointed to a woman who was present at the scene of the prophet’s interview with Ahaz. Isaiah’s address to the “house of David” and his use of second plural forms suggests other people were present, and his use of the second feminine singular verb form (“you will name” later in the verse is best explained if addressed to a woman who is present.At any rate, Sincerly does not have the definite article in the translation.
Fletch
Absolute rubbish. Post #334 is shown below ...1. This is not an excerpt from the Masoretic text.
2. You repeatedly fail to provide a reference for your drivel.
You are either foolishly lying or - and this is far more likely - simply too ignorant to realize how pathetically wrong you are.
Now - yet again - cite your source.
gnostic
The Lost One
I agreed with Jayhawker. You're not citing your source.jayhawker said:Quote:
Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Jay, Yes, I did. see my #334 post and it was copied from the Masoretic text.
Absolute rubbish. Post #334 is shown below ...Quote:1. This is not an excerpt from the Masoretic text.
Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Jay, The "evasion" has/had a named name.
The "evasion" is a tactic of your making. Are you projecting?
אדני 'Adonay =Therefore the Lord
נתן nathan =himself shall give
אות 'owth =you a sign;
עלמה `almah=Behold, a virgin
הרה hareh=shall conceive,
ילד yalad=and bear
בן ben=a son,
קרא qara' = and shall call
שם shem = his name
עמנואל `Immanuw'el = Immanuel
Any sham is from you. Your "ha-almah harah" isn't "almah hareh".
see above. Looks like more projection from you.
2. You repeatedly fail to provide a reference for your drivel.
You are either foolishly lying or - and this is far more likely - simply too ignorant to realize how pathetically wrong you are.
Now - yet again - cite your source.
Do you understand what Jayhawker is asking you?
Citing the source, is giving the name of author, essay, book or (URL) webpage of where you copy-and-paste from.
When I write book, essay or anything in which I had quoted from, like from a book for instance, I have to provide exactly where I got it from, so I would show the following details: author, title, publisher, year of published or updated edition, and perhaps even page number(s) or chapter where it come from. That would be citing my source.
So if you copy that quote from website, you would need to tell us exactly which website or webpage you had copy from, otherwise you're plagiarizing.
You say Masoretic text, but this part -
sincerly said:
...is not citing your source. And you certainly didn't copy it from the Masoretic Text.
Everything would be in Hebrew if you actually got it from the Masoretic Text, for instance see below:
Isaiah 7:14 said:
The transliteration of the above (quoted) Hebrew passage, is not from Masoretic Text:
Isaiah 7:14 said:
The original Masoretic Text passage wouldn't have transliteration or translation.
He is asking what author, webpage, book, essay or journal that you got it from?
What you copy down (copy-and-paste) is not from Masoretic Text. Masoretic Text wouldn't have any transliteration or English translation, so - " עלמה `almah=Behold, a virgin" or "הרה hareh=shall conceive," (I had highlight in red) - are something you wouldn't find in the Masoretic Text.
Do you now understand what Jayhawker is saying now when he ask for source or reference?
So please provide the webpage (URL or link) of where you got it from, sincerly? He is asking where you got the transliteration and translation from?
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Isaiah 7:14 in context can be seen here. The verse in question is labeled יד and the Hebrew verse is clearly ...
הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן
No better example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect can be found than that displayed by sincerely's utterly confused assertions.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
For the third time , that was from the mesoretic text and I'll take the translation given with it. (over what you claim. )
I believe Mary was never impregnated by a human male. And that the record is factual as written by Luke and recorded as the Lord God had given to Matthew in that Dream which affirmed that given to Mary by the Angel Gabriel before the impregnation took place.
Your "doubts" are yours, but I disagree with you assessment.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So your answer to this thread is that the Hebrew means a virgin shall conceive? Not a young woman is pregnant? Thus, pushing the sign far into the future to Mary and Jesus? So there never was a child in Isaiah's time that fulfilled the requirements of the sign? If you believe there was a child was that child born of a virgin? Do you believe the rest of the "sign" pertains to Jesus? Or, was the rest of the details symbolic? If so, why couldn't the virgin birth be symbolic? The rest of Isaiah has to be something either literal or symbolic. You can't just omit it and pretend it isn't all connected.
gnostic
The Lost One
sincerly said:
You still don't understand what Jayhawker is asking from you.
Where did you get the translation and the transliteration from?
And don't say Masoretic Text. Because the Masoretic Text don't contain transliteration nor translation.
He is questioning your transliteration, your translation and your interpretation on all-of-the-above.
Now unless you have translated the text yourself, then you must have gotten it from somewhere else.
Do you have a link(s)?
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Masoretic Text: The Hebrew Old Testament
The Hebrew text on the Blue Letter Bible was derived from the Westminster Leningrad Codex (WLC), a digital version of the Leningrad Codex developed by the Westminster Hebrew Institute at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. This version (4.10) is based on the June 30th, 2008 WLC release. Used with permission.Lexicon / Concordance for Isaiah 7:14
7:14
לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא לָכֶם אֹות הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן וְקָרָאת שְׁמֹו עִמָּנוּ אֵֽל׃
This Hebrew was incorporated in the in line copy of post #334.
That post showed the correct meaning.
That post showed the correct meaning.
You simply do not know what you are talking about. It's rather sad ...
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So what are you saying? That Isaiah told King Ahaz that sometime in the future a virgin would give birth to a son? And what was his response? "So, what does that have to do with me and my problems right now?" But also, the rest of the verses don't make sense that way, because this boy is alive when his enemies are done away with.Masoretic Text: The Hebrew Old TestamentThe Hebrew text on the Blue Letter Bible was derived from the Westminster Leningrad Codex (WLC), a digital version of the Leningrad Codex developed by the Westminster Hebrew Institute at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. This version (4.10) is based on the June 30th, 2008 WLC release. Used with permission.
Lexicon / Concordance for Isaiah 7:14
7:14
לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא לָכֶם אֹות הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן וְקָרָאת שְׁמֹו עִמָּנוּ אֵֽל׃
This Hebrew was incorporated in the in line copy of post #334.
That post showed the correct meaning.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi CG D, As given in Isa.7:14 correct.
NO!, There is no pushing of that "sign" anywhere. It was in response to the Disbelief of Ahaz as to the veracity of GOD and HIS words. Ahaz did not believe and his kingdom was not "established". Ahaz choose to seek Assyria's help rather than listen to and obey the GOD of ALL THINGS. (See 8:20)
The prophesied "seed of the woman"(Gen.3:15) is the verifying fact upon which the theme of the entire Bible is affirmed. GOD'S Promises are secure and factual. Ahaz was confident in his own reasoning. That 7:14 verse was still future at that time.
However, Yes, the Prophetess's son would fulfill the "sign" just as 8:18 says.
At the time of Isaiah and Ahaz and virgin birth pertaining to that era---NO.
Jesus was never a part of that eras events.(from a earthly point of view. Nor were that eras events a part of the times and events of Jesus' day.)
The rest of the book of Isaiah is both literal and prophetic.
GOD is very much connected as HIS Plans have been finished from "before the foundation of the world".
Hi Sincerly,
Unless Ahaz was also a time traveling gynecologist, the virgin Mary was not a sign to him. A sign, by definition is something that is seen, not unseen.
Mary's husband needed a supernatural brick on the head in order to see the sign and no one else in the storyline ever saw it(Mat13:55). Mary and Joseph somehow later forgot about it themselves(Luke 2:50).
Gen 3 is Eve, not Mary. Isaiah 7:14-15 takes place when butter and honey were soon to be around, like in Isaiah 7:22, not 700 odd years in the future.
7:22 And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.
Ummm, 8:18 says "children" not child, it is plural.
Jesus never ate butter and honey, Immanuel did when the house of Israel and Syria were defeated by Assyria.
God with us, means God is on the side of. Never that God dwells with man on earth. NEVER. WIth us means on the side of. See here:
2 Chron 6:18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built !
Immanuel was also for another prophecy. It was when Assyria came to the neck of Judah.
Isaiah 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over , he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel . ...10 Take counsel together , and it shall come to nought ; speak the word, and it shall not stand : for God is with us.
Here was the fulfillment when Assyria was at Judah's neck:
2 Chron 32:8 With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our God to help us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves upon the words of Hezekiah king of Judah.
Also note that God's arm is not flesh( Jesus' is).
Fletch
PS Someday, everyone will know the Jews worship the true God, God is with them still:
Zech 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew , saying , We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So she "shall" conceive?
So Jayhawker, Levite and CMike are wrong?
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Why are you not looking at Mahershalalhashbaz as the answer to the sign as 8:18 acknowledges???
This is idiotic.
From post 334 with emphasis added ...The words in question are clearly ha-almah harah. Post #334 is a pathetic joke.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So now to be clear, you are saying there was a kid, that was a sign and his name was Mahershalalhashbaz? But, verse 7:14 refers to the virgin Mary giving birth to the Messiah 700 years later? So was Mahershalalhashbaz's mother present when Isaiah talked to King Ahaz? Did he say this young girl is pregnant and going to have a son etc, etc?
Now about the Hebrew words ha-almah harah, you both can't be right Jayhawker said:
You'd think God could have made things more clear or taught me how to read Hebrew. But, then again, I still wouldn't know how to interpret it correctly. I couldn't go to Rabbi's for answers. They don't understand the meanings of the words either.
gnostic
The Lost One
sincerly said:
Either your translation or your transliteration is poor...or they both are poor.
almah doesn't equal "Behold, a virgin". The word "behold" doesn't belong in almah.
The word - "behold" - is hinneh.
Where in your transliteration is hinneh?
Here is the transliteration, again, the one I had posted at the OP:
Isaiah 7:14 said:
Breaking down the 1st part of this sentence, it should be like this:
ha'almah harah can be translated as one of the following:
- "the young woman is pregnant"
- "the young woman with child"
- "the pregnant young woman"
As to almah/virgin/young-woman argument.
Like I've said in the other thread (by CG Didymus), almah denote the woman's age, not her virginity.
It is quite possible for a young woman - almah - to be marry to her husband for some years, before she become pregnant. A young woman doesn't necessarily become pregnant on the night she has lost her virginity.
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