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Hadiths, which ones?

illykitty

RF's pet cat
I wonder how Muslims on this forums accept some Hadith. Do you accept those called authentic? Do you use the Quran and common sense? Do you accept those said by an imam or scholar? Or do you reject them all together (or use them only as historical source)?

Some people might already know, I have issues with Hadiths. In the time I was a Muslim, I read some and found some of them (from Sahih Bukhari - called the most "authentic") strange, contradictory or even disturbing.

But then, how do you know which Hadith to trust, if ones from so called authentic book sound false? I'd love to see some answers. Thank you! :eek:

Quick examples of Hadith (from Sahih Bukhari volume 7):

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 32 :
Narrated by Sahl bin Sad
Allah's Apostle said, "If at all there is bad omen, it is in the horse, the woman, and the house."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 :
Narrated by 'Aisha
That the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 113 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "The woman is like a rib; if you try to straighten her, she will break. So if you want to get benefit from her, do so while she still has some crookedness."

:areyoucra
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
I wonder how Muslims on this forums accept some Hadith. Do you accept those called authentic?

Not all.

Do you use the Quran and common sense?

Yes.

Do you accept those said by an imam or scholar? Or do you reject them all together (or use them only as historical source)?

I may have some doubts sometimes.

But then, how do you know which Hadith to trust, if ones from so called authentic book sound false? I'd love to see some answers. Thank you! :eek:

Quick examples of Hadith (from Sahih Bukhari volume 7):

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 32 :
Narrated by Sahl bin Sad
Allah's Apostle said, "If at all there is bad omen, it is in the horse, the woman, and the house."

I've made a quick research and found that there's a hadith and Aisha said this hadith wasn't true : related by Ahmad, Al-Hakim and Ibn Khouzaimah

And then in the same article they say the hadith is still authentic but it has to be understood as in that time, IF it must be bad omen it will found among horses, women, houses because of people of this period i guess they loved a lot horses and women and for the house idk.

The article talk about omen, saying that it's forbidden in Islam.
There's some hadiths relating that the Prophet Muhammad said that what arabs used to believe about omen is a wrong practice.
He said that the one who believe and predict something because of animals or people is not among us (a muslim)

You can find this here (it's not in english) : ~ Les Prsages et l'Islam ~

Like in europe (or maybe elsewhere) when people see a crow they believe that it's a bad omen. (death)
Or when people open an ombrella in the house or see a black cat they believe bad thing will happen.
It's forbidden in Islam.

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 :
Narrated by 'Aisha
That the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

I suggest you to take a look at this thread about Aisha's age : http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/same-faith-debates/145413-how-old-aisha-when-she-married.html

The debate is open, some believe it others don't. It's difficult to know what was her real age.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
I wonder how Muslims on this forums accept some Hadith. Do you accept those called authentic? Do you use the Quran and common sense? Do you accept those said by an imam or scholar? Or do you reject them all together (or use them only as historical source)?

Some people might already know, I have issues with Hadiths. In the time I was a Muslim, I read some and found some of them (from Sahih Bukhari - called the most "authentic") strange, contradictory or even disturbing.

But then, how do you know which Hadith to trust, if ones from so called authentic book sound false? I'd love to see some answers. Thank you! :eek:

Peace be on you.

1- Holy Quran is the most certain and free of doubt.

2- Sunnah is the continous pactice of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) on the Holy Quran.

3- Hadith-s (Ahadith) are the sayings of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) collected latter. Hadith help explain things. If it contradicts, try to explain in the light of Quran with Taqwa / Piousness, if not possible, leave it. If apparantly a Hadith is weak but is proven by the action of Allah, it is surely true.

More: Authenticity of Hadith



Quick examples of Hadith (from Sahih Bukhari volume 7):

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 32 :
Narrated by Sahl bin Sad
Allah's Apostle said, "If at all there is bad omen, it is in the horse, the woman, and the house."

Please read these verses of Holy Quran:

Woman as Mother:
[31:15] And We have enjoined on man concerning his parents — his mother bears him in weakness upon weakness, and his weaning takes two years — ‘Give thanks to Me and to thy parents. Unto Me is the final return.


Sytem of marraige
[4:2] O ye people! fear your Lord, Who created you from a single soul and created therefrom its mate, and from them twain spread many men and women; and fear Allah, in Whose name you appeal to one another, and fear Him particularly respecting ties of relationship. Verily, Allah watches over you.


Prayer for Spouse
[25:75]And those who say, ‘Our Lord, grant us of our wives[1] and children the delight of our eyes, and make us a model for the righteous.

[1]- words used in verse is ‘azwajayna’ it also means ‘our spouses’; both pray for each other.


Seek Spouse and Worldly Means for Piousness
[3:15] Beautified for men is the love of desired things — women and children, and stored-up heaps of gold and silver, and pastured horses and cattle and crops. That is the provision of the present life; but it is Allah with Whom is an excellent home.

[3:16] Say, ‘Shall I inform you of something better than that?’ For those who fear God, there are Gardens with their Lord, beneath which rivers flow; therein shall they abide; and pure spouses and Allah’s pleasure. And Allah is Mindful of His servants,

[3:17] Those who say, ‘Our Lord, we do believe; forgive us, therefore, our sins and save us from the punishment of the Fire;’

[3:18] The steadfast, and the truthful, and the humble, and those who spend in the way of God, and those who seek forgiveness in the latter part of the night.

Search results from alislam.org/Quran


Now please read the above hadith in the context of all these verses, in which woman is given grand status. Hadith may be part of larger conversation it only may mean that one should have family life for the sake of godliness otherwise these same system may turn into troubles and growing pains; broken families, single parents, promiscuousness etc are some of the consequences of wrong approaches.



Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 :
Narrated by 'Aisha
That the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

== Arabs did not use calendars, years dates as in these times, they were unlettered. Thus 2 or 3 years error is possible. Modern research tells, female can reach adulthood by 9. Some reports are of age 12. Hot climate is much different than cold one.

== Before Hardwicke's Marriage Act of 1753 there was no lower legal age of marriage, except during the 1650's when it was 16 for men and 14 for women. ...

www.british-genealogy.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1969.html

== English common law, and early American law : In the early 1800's fathers could contract their daughters to marriage as early as age 12 and there was no consent on her part. Boys had to be 14 before they could enter into a marriage contract.

http://www.123helpme.com/preview.asp?id=42079


== Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) whole life was well known, he would not have done any thing incorrect as it is made to appear these days.

== Hadhrat Aisha (r.a.)’s extremely pious father Hazrat Abu Bakr (r.a.). was the most beloved companion of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.). As a corollary, it is to be noted that it is a plus that pre-presence of genuine respect and affection between bride’s father and bridegroom (in fact parents of bride to bridegroom and parents of bridegroom to bride) strongly helps in latter strong and healthy matrimonial relation; Hazrat Aisha r.a. was the beloved wife of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.); she was very intelligent, she learned from him very much and continued to educate the faithful. Her ever-matchless words about her husband (s.a.w.) still stand at heavens height:
“kana kholokohul Quran”….i.e His [Holy Prophet (s.a.w.)’s] moral were Quran”. These revered words also show, she was fully satisfied with her husband (s.a.w.)

May Allah bless her soul. Aameen



Volume 7, Book 62, Number 113 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "The woman is like a rib; if you try to straighten her, she will break. So if you want to get benefit from her, do so while she still has some crookedness."

....

It is a similitude. Rib protects heart and vital organs. A good wife cares her husband in all manners and likewise husband is advised to be careful towards her, she has her emotions. It was a delicate advice covered in the pious-romance. Once Holy Prophet s.a.w. said women are like glass vessels. (Delicacy and containment)

More: Women in Islam
 
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Pastek

Sunni muslim
1- Holy Quran is the most certain and free of doubt.

Seek Spouse and Worldly Means for Piousness
[3:15] Beautified for men is the love of desired things — women and children, and stored-up heaps of gold and silver, and pastured horses and cattle and crops. That is the provision of the present life; but it is Allah with Whom is an excellent home.

Exactly, the first thing to do is to read the Quran and then try to understand the meaning of the hadiths. The Quran is above the hadiths.

38.30 And to David We gave Solomon. An excellent servant, indeed he was one repeatedly turning back [to Allah ].

38.31 [Mention] when there were exhibited before him in the afternoon the poised [standing] racehorses.

38.32 And he said, "Indeed, I gave preference to the love of good [things] over the remembrance of my Lord until the sun disappeared into the curtain [of darkness]."

It's more easy if you read enought the Quran to remember some important verses, like those quoted by Dawud for exemple.
Also, you must search the explanations of the hadiths if you have some doubts, there's many books of exegesis.
 

Union

Well-Known Member
Of course I take the Qur'an and common sense into consideration. If a hadith is in contradiction with the Qur'an then I cannot accept it.

Just a quick test then : Qur'an decreed 100 lashing for the punishment of zina , both for men and women and married and non-married while Hadith decreed the same as killing by stoning for married ones . Which one you accept ?
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
In shia islam the only book that we are sure 100% authentic is the Quran...

the infallible imams lived with us for more than 300 years...and they told us, that we should test all the hadiths against the quran and their famous sayings before accepting any hadith..
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
In shia islam the only book that we are sure 100% authentic is the Quran...

the infallible imams lived with us for more than 300 years...and they told us, that we should test all the hadiths against the quran and their famous sayings before accepting any hadith..

Would any book written by an infallible imam be 100% authentic?
 

Union

Well-Known Member
don't you observe that each time a seeker came to ask you take the thread and convert it to a debate?

Are you mentally challenged ? Don't you see a question mark (?) at the end of my post ? What that mean ? Think n answer .
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
@ Shia Islam
And to add Rational Mind : is there any book existing written directly by an infallible Imam and preserved till today ?

In general, the imams lectures to the disciples, who would write what the imams say.

You can't be sure that the disciples have used the same wordings of the imams.

Also, over the centuries the books would be transcribed by different transcribers, who may make some errors.

Also, there were no mass printing at those old times, so someone my borrow a book and try to distort it.
 
There is a criteria for the authenticity of Ahadith. They must match some relevent factual details. For e.g dates locations etc. There is a chain of people from which the Ahadith was transferred through the generations before it was Recorded in PROPER WRITTEN form e.g books. This chain must be complete and the people in this chain should be reliable. e.g they must not be too young(Children) or too old(Weak memory of old people) and must be mentally sane(not have dementia Alzheimers maddness etc). Also the closer they are to the prophet the better. E.G most of the ahadith quoted are those of The prophet's companions. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL THE CONTENT MUST NOT BE CONTRADICTORY TO THE QURAN AND ESTABLISHED AHADITH + BASIC REASONING.
 

illykitty

RF's pet cat
Thank you all for the various answers! It's interesting to see the different views about something so complex (and admittedly delicate). Some answers make sense... But I have a few more questions. Btw, I don't want this to turn into Quranic vs Sunni vs Shia... I want to see perspectives, if you want to debate do it elsewhere. Thank you for understanding.

1- You could technically make up a hadith that doesn't go against the Quran but isn't part of doctrine/teachings.

2- I often see Bukhari and Muslim said as being 100% authentic, some hadiths which I have personal experience with has left me, to say the least, uneasy. Aisha's age, now some say they are unsure about this to be true but if any of you do, then explain...

Desert climate and other apologetics don't hold up to my life experience. I was 10 when I reached puberty and my body was still child-like, my body was fully adult around mid-teens. Now everyone is different but is this really a reliable guideline? I have a hard time that a all-knowing God would recommend something so dangerous and harmful (which results in death in some cases).

3- If hadith are so important, why didn't Allah tell Muhammad to tell someone to write them and that they will be protected too, like the Quran? Surely it would be wiser to write them as it happens or right after it happened so there's no mistake or lie! So many lies got mixed in and even those called authentic sound sometimes dubious... It's hard to know which are true (imo).

For Shia only (maybe a little off topic - but since they rely on infallible Imams)
4- How is someone infallible?
5- And how do you know if someone is appointed by God and not lying about it?
6- Finally, can you tell me (or post a link) on what the purpose of temporary marriage is... I'm not sure I understand WHY someone would use that? It's a bit confusing.

Also, sorry about the ignorance on all this I realise I don't know much about Shia at all!

I think that's all, for now. I appreciated the explanations of the hadiths by the way. I'm really trying to get my mind to understand this subject... It's very complicated but might help in the future (or at least gain knowledge and understanding).
 
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illykitty

RF's pet cat
There is a criteria for the authenticity of Ahadith. They must match some relevent factual details. For e.g dates locations etc. There is a chain of people from which the Ahadith was transferred through the generations before it was Recorded in PROPER WRITTEN form e.g books. This chain must be complete and the people in this chain should be reliable. e.g they must not be too young(Children) or too old(Weak memory of old people) and must be mentally sane(not have dementia Alzheimers maddness etc). Also the closer they are to the prophet the better. E.G most of the ahadith quoted are those of The prophet's companions. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL THE CONTENT MUST NOT BE CONTRADICTORY TO THE QURAN AND ESTABLISHED AHADITH + BASIC REASONING.

But how do they know if a chain goes back, say to a companion of the Prophet? They were dead weren't they, and hadith were compiled about 200 yrs after the Prophet wasn't it? So unless the compilers had time machines it's hard to know if it is true. (Also take a look at the other questions I posted above, please, especially number 3.)

In authentic hadith stoning is mentioned, while it isn't in the Quran. If Allah wanted this why wasn't it in the Quran? Makes no sense. Also there's a huge difference in severity between stoning and lashing!

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to answer! :) It is helpful.
 
.

3- If hadith are so important, why didn't Allah tell Muhammad to tell someone to write them and that they will be protected too, like the Quran? Surely it would be wiser to write them as it happens or right after it happened so there's no mistake or lie! So many lies got mixed in and even those called authentic sound sometimes dubious... It's hard to know which are true (imo).

.

As far as I Can remember(I studied Islam like 3 or 4 years ago) the Prophet did recommend Writing down not only what he said but also what he did. That is why there is a huge pool of Ahadith. Unfortunately i dont think literacy level allowed for everything to be written down. The Prophet did have his own scribes though they were usually there to write down Quranic verses.

-As for hz.Ayesha's age the Prophet never mentioned it himself all accounts come from his companions. The reason why we muslims are unsure is because the companions were not like the prophet. They might have not estimated the age correctly,(OBVIOSLY no one counted birthdays in that timeperiod). Some accounts even say Hz.Ayesha had stunted growth. Others say that since her sister was 27 at the time Hz.ayesha was 10 years younger than her sister so she was 17 years old.

All I do is take the average most authentic Ahadith i.e of 9 year old and go with it. It doesn't really matter to me what age she was since the guidelines for marriage In Islam are already quite clear.
 
for the chain part.

Lets just say you claim to have a orignal saying of the prophet on TEXT. I Come to you to collect the text. I ask you where you got this from. (You were born 100 years after the prophets death (SUPPOSEDLY) you say you got this from your grandfather. your grandfather is dead now. So we dont have the complete chain. END OF STORY. YOUR AHADITH IS UNAUTHENTIC. if your grandfather is alive and there is a rumor that he "ONCE LIED IN HIS ENTIRE MUSLIM LIFE" he is a unreliable source. END OF STORY AHADITH UNAUTHENTIC Was again. as you can see the probablity of having authentic ahadith is very low. The character of the people in the chain needs to be crystal clear.

as far as I remember out of 300,000-500,000 Ahadith only 5000-6000 were deemed authentic.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
QUOTING = illykitty

For Shia only (maybe a little off topic - but since they rely on infallible Imams)
4- How is someone infallible?


one of the imams gave the following example to explain infallibility (not the exact wordings)

he asked the questioner:
Will you drink Urine?
The questioner replied no... It's disgusting...

The imam said: Similarly, we see all sins disgusting.

5- And how do you know if someone is appointed by God and not lying about it?

Among the ways:
1. The prophet talked about them and described them.
2. every imam will show the next imam.
3. They show miracles.
4. Once you see the sun you can't confuse with a lamp.

6- Finally, can you tell me (or post a link) on what the purpose of temporary marriage is... I'm not sure I understand WHY someone would use that? It's a bit confusing.


Islam came to be applied on the whole earth. Once Islam will reach that point, no illegitimate relationship will be allowed. can you imagine that every couple living together in each and every corner of the earth are permanently married?

Islam is a practical religion and is here to be applied.

Also, what is wrong with two student studying abroad for example to agree between themselves to live together (with a temporary marriage contract) and after finishing their study they may decide whether to change the contract to a permanent one or not.
 

Union

Well-Known Member
In general, the imams lectures to the disciples, who would write what the imams say.

You can't be sure that the disciples have used the same wordings of the imams.

Also, over the centuries the books would be transcribed by different transcribers, who may make some errors.

Also, there were no mass printing at those old times, so someone my borrow a book and try to distort it.

Thanks for your honest answer .
 

Union

Well-Known Member
for the chain part.

Lets just say you claim to have a orignal saying of the prophet on TEXT. I Come to you to collect the text. I ask you where you got this from. (You were born 100 years after the prophets death (SUPPOSEDLY) you say you got this from your grandfather. your grandfather is dead now. So we dont have the complete chain. END OF STORY. YOUR AHADITH IS UNAUTHENTIC. if your grandfather is alive and there is a rumor that he "ONCE LIED IN HIS ENTIRE MUSLIM LIFE" he is a unreliable source. END OF STORY AHADITH UNAUTHENTIC Was again. as you can see the probablity of having authentic ahadith is very low. The character of the people in the chain needs to be crystal clear.

as far as I remember out of 300,000-500,000 Ahadith only 5000-6000 were deemed authentic.

Salam Bro . Let me try to understand you clear . Now if a hadith Isnad goes Like z->y->x......c->b->a , where Only Person z was alive and all other were dead , can that Isnad be Sahih ?
 
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