Hamas, innocent Palestinians, and the UN

[Jayhawker Soule]

In fact, Israel GAVE Gaza to the Palestinians almost 20 years ago, correct?

Correct. And it was very contentious and very, very painful. People would do well to read:

Wikipedia: Israeli Disengagement from Gaza.​

My wife and I were in Israel just prior to the decision, and unilateral disengagement was the pervasive topic of discussion. I was very much in favor of it ... and I was embarrassingly wrong.

 

[We Never Know]

What evidence is there that they actually intend eliminating Israel?
Rhetoric doesn't count.

From...

The Hamas Covenant​

On the destruction of Israel:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)"

https://embassies.gov.il/holysee/AboutIsrael/the-middle-east/Pages/The%20Hamas-Covenant.aspx#:~:text=The%20Hamas%20charter%20is%20the,18%20years%20of%20its%20existence.

"The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel"

Hamas Charter - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[sun rise]

Notice that NONE of the OIC's positions mention Hamas?

A claim of bias is one thing. They are biased. The US is totally pro-Israel and ignores settler violence outside of a bit of tut-tutting. But that does not support your "uncharitable suspicion"

My uncharitable suspicion is that the OIC (Organization of Islamic Cooperation), views Palestinians as expendable pawns in their quest to eliminate Israel.

 

[Revoltingest]

And what has Hamas done with the billions and billions of aid dollars it's received over the years?

Not much that's productive that I know of.
To be clear, I don't defend Hamas.
But I understand why it exists & acts as it does.
This is essential to solving the hostility problem.

 

[sun rise]

My wife and I were in Israel just prior to the decision, and unilateral disengagement was the pervasive topic of discussion. I was very much in favor of it ... and I was embarrassingly wrong.

Gaza was not Israel's to "give". That said, I cheered the decision as offering an opportunity for peace. Sadly that never happened.

 

[Revoltingest]

From...

The Hamas Covenant​

On the destruction of Israel:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)"

https://embassies.gov.il/holysee/AboutIsrael/the-middle-east/Pages/The%20Hamas-Covenant.aspx#:~:text=The%20Hamas%20charter%20is%20the,18%20years%20of%20its%20existence.

"The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel"

Hamas Charter - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The poster's claim was broader than just Hamas.
But I suggest that if Palestinians were given liberty,
& had their own country, Hamas could be convinced
to sing a different tune.
Of course, the "You can't reason with those people!"
will object. But you & I don't hear their words.

 

[We Never Know]

The poster's claim was broader than just Hamas.
But I suggest that if Palestinians were given liberty,
& had their own country, Hamas could be convinced
to sing a different tune.
Of course, the "You can't reason with those people!"
will object. But you & I don't hear their words.

You asked "What evidence is there that they actually intend eliminating Israel?"

So I gave it to you.

 

[Revoltingest]

You asked "What evidence is there that they actually intend eliminating Israel?"

So I gave it to you.

Someone gave that before.
I addressed it before.
Ie, it's not evidence of the broad claim made.

 

[We Never Know]

Someone gave that before.
I addressed it before.
Ie, it's not evidence of the broad claim made.

If you say so... even though the Hamas Covenant disagrees with you.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you say so....

That's better.
Let me do the thinking for you.

 

[icehorse]

The poster's claim was broader than just Hamas.
But I suggest that if Palestinians were given liberty,
& had their own country, Hamas could be convinced
to sing a different tune.
Of course, the "You can't reason with those people!"
will object. But you & I don't hear their words.

The Palestinians were given Gaza almost 20 years ago. And a metric ****-ton of aid. Did they take that opportunity to build anything at all to be proud of?

You're making an unfalsifiable claim that also runs counter tons of relevant evidence, sigh.

 

[sayak83]

They can offer resolutions, correct?

Why does anyone care about these pointless resolutions in UN? Its quite well known that UN general assembly has zero power and the power resides with the members of the security council with vetoes. The only legitimate question is why have they not militarily intervened to resolve the Israel-Palestine conflict entirely over the last few decades? Why leave it festering between the two warring and intransigent parties that always creates global instabilities? If NATO and Russia ever came to an agreement to end the conflict and fix the borders once and for all, do you think either Israel or Palestine has the capability to stop them?

 

[Estro Felino]

I totally believe that life in Gaza is horrible. That's it's been horrible for years. If Palestinians cannot rise up to expel Hamas, then where is the UN to help them? The UN (in this case mostly driven by the Islamic faction called OIC), has plenty of time to endlessly condemn Israel, right? How about unseating Hamas instead. If the UN is all about human rights, Gaza seems like an urgent situation, and it has been for years now.

My uncharitable suspicion is that the OIC (Organization of Islamic Cooperation), views Palestinians as expendable pawns in their quest to eliminate Israel.

Since they democratically elected Hamas, I guess they could feel comfortable in those fundamentalist countries in the Gulf...they are incredibly rich there, they would have a much better life.
In the West they wouldn't feel comfortable. Too many naked women, too much scandalous, libertine lifestyle for their eyes.

 

[Unfettered]

Much is being said in the media and RF about how Palestinians are innocent, subjected to apartheid, completely subdued by Hamas, and so on.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that's all true.

Note: I edited the following question after post #4, thanks @Orbit

Why has the UN taken no actions to remove Hamas since Israel unilaterally exited from Gaza? (it's been almost 20 years now)

I totally believe that life in Gaza is horrible. That's it's been horrible for years. If Palestinians cannot rise up to expel Hamas, then where is the UN to help them? The UN (in this case mostly driven by the Islamic faction called OIC), has plenty of time to endlessly condemn Israel, right? How about unseating Hamas instead. If the UN is all about human rights, Gaza seems like an urgent situation, and it has been for years now.

My uncharitable suspicion is that the OIC (Organization of Islamic Cooperation), views Palestinians as expendable pawns in their quest to eliminate Israel.

Within a geopolitical framework, I claim complete and utter ignorance when the question is "How can the instability in the Middle East be inverted?" The peoples alone whose dispute it is hold all the keys to unlock the answers.

 

[Drunk_Uncle_Bob]

Anti-Palestine RF posters I got a question. How do you feel about Israel bombing the people evacuating on their order? Explicitly told them to go somewhere and then bombed a civilian convoy killing mostly women and children. No known combatants where there and there was no intelligence suggesting there where. What was the reason for this strike? It kind of just seems indefensibly evil to me. Sure what Hamas did was indefensible and evil as well. No question. But this was just an outlandish act of aggression against innocent people. Its like if someone stole from me it would justify me breaking into an unrelated person's house just to take out my rage.

 

[Quetzal]

The poster's claim was broader than just Hamas.
But I suggest that if Palestinians were given liberty,
& had their own country, Hamas could be convinced
to sing a different tune.
Of course, the "You can't reason with those people!"
will object. But you & I don't hear their words.

This is a question out of my own ignorance: how much popular support does Hamas have in these territories and the surrounding nations?

 

[Revoltingest]

This is a question out of my own ignorance: how much popular support does Hamas have in these territories and the surrounding nations?

You're asking someone as ignorant as you are.

 

[England my lionheart]

Anti-Palestine RF posters I got a question. How do you feel about Israel bombing the people evacuating on their order? Explicitly told them to go somewhere and then bombed a civilian convoy killing mostly women and children. No known combatants where there and there was no intelligence suggesting there where. What was the reason for this strike? It kind of just seems indefensibly evil to me. Sure what Hamas did was indefensible and evil as well. No question. But this was just an outlandish act of aggression against innocent people. Its like if someone stole from me it would justify me breaking into an unrelated person's house just to take out my rage.

I feel Hamas gave Israel no choice and consider that it was the Palestinians who elected them knowing that in the Hamas charter there can never be peace until the complete eradication of Israel.

Hamas are deliberately drawing Israel in to escalate the war bringing Lebanon and Irans Hezbollah,civilians in Palestine are just fodder for propaganda,I wonder how innocent they actually are.

 

[We Never Know]

You're asking someone as ignorant as you are.

Aw now c'mon. Do the thinking for them.

 

[Ponder This]

Why has the UN taken no actions to remove Hamas since Israel unilaterally exited from Gaza?

Hypothetically, what action could the UN take?