Hamas vs. Israel, a thought experiment

[EconGuy]

I found this on Twitter and it pretty well says it all for me

Israel has a right to exist.
Palestine has a right to exist.
A two-state solution is the ONLY way forward.
BOTH need to be free of terrorist violence, retaliatory violence, settler violence, and occupier violence.
Free of violence, PERIOD.

Both sides have suffered tremendous losses.
No amount of killing will make it right.
No amount of retaliation will feel like enough.
No amount of suffering on either side is justifiable.

Hamas needs to be eliminated.
Netanyahu needs to lose his job.
Palestine needs leadership that will push for a two-state solution.
The United States, and major Arab states, need to help make it happen.

Antisemitism and Islamophobia are BOTH wrong.
This conflict needs thoughtful, wise voices.
It doesn't need ignorant, hateful voices.

There are voices on BOTH sides that are trying to amp up the rhetoric to a dangerous, deadly pitch.

Don't be part of the problem.
Be part of the solution.

 

[Revoltingest]

You cannot separate the recent past, for better or worse from what is happiness now.

Have you seen the pic of this woman;

View attachment 84794

Who was murdered (not killed) and then paraded through the streets stripped to her panties and her bra with he legs broken bacwards?

I post that pic too, but I'm sure it would be deleted.

She wasn't collateral damage, she was specifically the target, but sure, it was fanatics, zealots that were responsible, yet as I watched that scene play out, average Palestinians acted like savages as they desecrated her lifeless body. Not a soldier, but a 20 something year old girl

That, IMO delves to another level of savagery not just of the fighters who killed her, stripped her of her clothing and broke her legs to treat her like a trophy that the people were more than happy to take part in.

There is no equal on the Israeli side. Even if you can find where an individual or soldier killed a woman or child, what you won't find is the general populace whipped into a mudwrus frenzy, willing to decorate the corpse of a young woman or child.

The two are not equivalent, now or in the past. That said, I will say AGAIN, I do not support the killing of woman and children in Gaza. Given what I've seen, it is a crime, just as the occupation of the West Bank os, IMO a crime, but what I won't do is elevate the Palestinians or the Arab world more broadly to the level of victim over Isreal.

The Palistinians have had opportunities they refused to take and at every turn have been violent.

The appeal to emotion is a weak argument.
It's easily countered by Israel's massacring
over, 5,000 Palestinian children among the
over 11,000 killed by remote control.

 

[Revoltingest]

If Hamas kills x Israelis as vengeance for Israeli oppression,
& Israel responds by killing 2x Palestinians as vengeance,
they certainly aren't equally moral.
Israel is a thug state that places low value on non-Jewish lives.

Gawd, that figure is so last month.
Israel's kill ration now approached 8:1.
They are death dealers supreme.

 

[EconGuy]

The appeal to emotion is a weak argument.
It's easily countered by Israel's massacring
over, 5,000 Palestinian children among the
over 11,000 killed by remote control.

Yes, that's terrible and might rise to the level of war crime, but what you won't find is Israelis soldiers, encouraged by their superiors to look for women and children and torture and if the reports are to be believed possibly even raped (though I admit I've haven't seen anything that would convince me this is 100% accurate, that said, I haven't looked that hard either, not sure I really want to know). But given other Arab terrorists have done similar things, it's not a stretch.

As far as an "appeal to emotion", it is not, it demonstrates a mindset of the people you're dealing with and whether they can be negotiated with in good faith. about 2/3rds of the people killed on day one by Palestinians were civilian.

Here's the breakdown according to Haaretz

Is there a difference between killing someone, say in the act of a robbery or raping, torturing and killing?

On the one hand there is a motive to steal and not get caught, the other is human depravity at it's worst. Those things are fundamentally different.

Again, the US dropped a nuke on a city, that was war and both sides healed. You talk about the Hydra affect, how does it not work in reverse. Pictures of naked women with their extremities broken paraded though streets make for very powerful tools to create anti-Palestinian sentiments among the Jews. It works both ways.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, that's terrible and might rise to the level of war crime....

Might?

...but what you won't find is Israelis soldiers, encouraged by their superiors to look for women and children and torture and if the reports are to be believed possibly even raped (though I admit I've haven't seen anything that would convince me this is 100% accurate, that said, I haven't looked that hard either, not sure I really want to know). But given other Arab terrorists have done similar things, it's not a stretch.

Israelis aren't the saints they pretend to be.

IDF, settlers allegedly bind, strip, beat, burn, urinate on 3 Palestinians in W. Bank

Palestinian accuses suspects of attempted sodomy in attack days after Hamas onslaught; Israeli activists say they were also victimized; IDF boots commanding officer, launches probe

www.timesofisrael.com

IDF officer who raped Palestinian was not dismissed for earlier sexual offenses

Soldier had reportedly faced disciplinary committee over sexual harassment of female officers, but convinced military to allow him to remain in service

www.timesofisrael.com

Palestinian man in West Bank says Israeli soldiers beat and stripped him

Mohamad Mattar told NBC News that he and two other Palestinians were detained and taken to a barn, where they were bound, photographed and urinated on.

www.nbcnews.com

As far as an "appeal to emotion", it is not, it demonstrates a mindset of the people you're dealing with and whether they can be negotiated with in good faith. about 2/3rds of the people killed on day one by Palestinians were civilian.

Here's the breakdown according to Haaretz

View attachment 84803

Is there a difference between killing someone, say in the act of a robbery or raping, torturing and killing?

Do you deny sexual assault by Israelis?
To place so much weight on sins of one
side, while ignoring the other is unconvincing.
Also, the greater sin is 11,000+ dead Palestinians.
And many more maimed & evicted from destroyed
homes.
Israel loves to play up the brutality of Hamas, but
it excuses or covers up its own. The penalty for
murdering Palestinians by Israel? It's been as low
as 10 cents.

On the one hand there is a motive to steal and not get caught, the other is human depravity at it's worst. Those things are fundamentally different.

Stealing land doesn't even involve getting caught.
The victim is either dead, sent packing, or ignored.
So it goes with Israelis.

Again, the US dropped a nuke on a city, that was war and both sides healed.

Whataboutism.
Israel's war crimes are wrong, no matter
what any other country did in any other
war.
But if you're justifying Israel's war crimes
this way, then you also justify Hamas's.

You talk about the Hydra affect, how does it not work in reverse.

I don't use the term "hydra".

Pictures of naked women with their extremities broken paraded though streets make for very powerful tools to create anti-Palestinian sentiments among the Jews. It works both ways.

Still, you're equating the far far greater death
toll with Hamas's lesser one. All by appealing
to emotion on Israel's behalf, but ignoring the
other side.

 

[EconGuy]

Israelis aren't the saints they pretend to be.

I can't respond to this whole thing, but the differences is that Israeli leadership will condemn these actions, whereas the leadership of Hamas won't, though they'll just lie and deny it, even if they're shown evidence.

 

[Revoltingest]

I can't respond to this whole thing, but the differences is that Israeli leadership will condemn these actions, whereas the leadership of Hamas won't, though they'll just lie and deny it, even if they're shown evidence.

You keep trying to paint Hamas as worse than Israel
by focusing on particular offensive acts. But you
ignore Israel atrocities, eg, torture, group punishment,
shooting children, rape, home demolition, etc.

Israeli torture in the occupied territories - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you really believe that these are more significant
than Israel killing about 8 times as many Palestinians,
& wiping out their homes, thereby sending hundreds
of thousands into exile?

 

[EconGuy]

You keep trying to paint Hamas as worse than Israel

Because they are. Period, full stop.

And I've acknowledged over and over that Israel is not innocent, but they are not the same.

 

[EconGuy]

Whataboutism.

Is that really what you took from that? I've apparently given you too much credit.

The point of that example was not to say that because the US has committed atrocities that it's ok for Israel to do it. No, that wasn't the point. The point was that even though our nations did horrible things to each other, culminating in the use of a nuke, within 50 years our nations not only reconciled, but became close allies and trade partners. What we didn't do was make rape and torture acceptable means of warfare, no, instead we used a bomb that killed 100,000 people in an instant. That doesn't mean that US and Japanese soldiers didn't commit atrocities (Abu Grab ring a bell), the difference is that average person in the US and the people in power will not condone these actions as acceptable. That's not to say we're perfect, we're not, the US has a lot of things to answer for, but we aspire to be better even if we don't live up to it all of the time. I've seen nothing from groups like Hamas that they are capable of empathy, of reconciliation and ironically Hamas accomplished exactly what they planned, Israel to over-react.

Now, I don't condone what Israel has done in response, but I at least understand it. What I can't understand is a surprise attack that targets over 800 civilians, not as collateral damage, but as the target, not to mention all the people kidnapped.

And yet the radicals within Palestine and much (though not all) the Arab world cannot and will not ever reconcile simply as a matter of principle.

I'm curious, the Russians have used hyperbaric weapons on civilian. They've indiscriminately fired cruise missiles into population areas, how do you feel about Russia's incursion into Ukraine?

 

[Revoltingest]

Because they are. Period, full stop.

And I've acknowledged over and over that Israel is not innocent, but they are not the same.

Israel's 70 years of torture, death, destruction,
far far greater death toll inflicted on Palestinians,
& fostering war & censorship in USA make
Israel the much greater perpetrator of evil.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is that really what you took from that? I've apparently given you too much credit.

Because I reject your specious claims & hypotheticals?

The point of that example was not to say that because the US has committed atrocities that it's ok for Israel to do it. No, that wasn't the point. The point was that even though our nations did horrible things to each other, culminating in the use of a nuke, within 50 years our nations not only reconciled, but became close allies and trade partners. What we didn't do was make rape and torture acceptable means of warfare, no, instead we used a bomb that killed 100,000 people in an instant. That doesn't mean that US and Japanese soldiers didn't commit atrocities (Abu Grab ring a bell), the difference is that average person in the US and the people in power will not condone these actions as acceptable. That's not to say we're perfect, we're not, the US has a lot of things to answer for, but we aspire to be better even if we don't live up to it all of the time. I've seen nothing from groups like Hamas that they are capable of empathy, of reconciliation and ironically Hamas accomplished exactly what they planned, Israel to over-react.

Now, I don't condone what Israel has done in response, but I at least understand it. What I can't understand is a surprise attack that targets over 800 civilians, not as collateral damage, but as the target, not to mention all the people kidnapped.

Your inability to understand what motivates
violent resistance by groups like Hamas
means you have some thinking to do.

And yet the radicals within Palestine and much (though not all) the Arab world cannot and will not ever reconcile simply as a matter of principle.

I'm curious, the Russians have used hyperbaric weapons on civilian. They've indiscriminately fired cruise missiles into population areas, how do you feel about Russia's incursion into Ukraine?

Again with whataboutism.
The favored tool of Israel apologists.

 

[EconGuy]

Again with whataboutism.
The favored tool of Israel apologists.

 

[Revoltingest]

View attachment 84812

When you distract from the issue at hand
by bringing up something else, that is
indeed whataboutism.

 

[Monty]

What is the solution that you believe that Isreal, the nation with all the power, should put in place?

Whatever it is, I doubt the Palistinians would accept it.

And how did the Canaanites feel when Joshua and his murdering thieves butchered all the pregnant women and children and stole their land?

 

[EconGuy]

And how did the Canaanites feel when Joshua and his murdering thieves butchered all the pregnant women and children and stole their land?

That is, quite laterally, ancient history (assuming it really happened). But my question still stands.

 

[Monty]

That is, quite laterally, ancient history (assuming it really happened). But my question still stands.

That's the story the Zionists use to justify their homeland claims.
And the Canaanites will still want to reclaim their homeland after the Zionists stole it and butchered their women and children.
And so the story goes.
And like the support of the French colonialists in 1954 at Dien Bien Phu when the Yanks wanted to nuke the Vietnamese and bomb China, alas the Gazans are also too close for the Zionists to use their nukes.