Hamas vs. Israel, a thought experiment

[Debater Slayer]

I am so sorry. Hamas murdered infants by means other than decapitation, perhaps.

Yes, I pointed out in my post that they murdered children by other methods, and that heinous act has indeed been confirmed.

You're always thoughtful and nice to talk to, DS. Happy to have a conversation with you when you're ready. I have had my own things happening in my personal life that you know about, so I understand not being ready to do something that might generate more stress.

Thanks, LC. I hope we both have better times soon.

 

[Left Coast]

Hamas are relevant to what conversation ?

This conversation. Did you see the title of the thread when you clicked?

Hamas are not relevant to the crimes against humanity perpetrated against the Palestinian babies. Hamas decapitating 50 babies .. is not justification for Israel decapitating 500 babies in Gaza .. not justification for bull-dozing peoples houses in the Occupied Territories .. not justification for the Occupation itself.

Gaza isn't occupied.

I can see you haven't learned any more about the situation since your last reply. You might want to.

 

[Kenny]

I don't know how that contradicts the fact that the specific claim about decapitated babies is unconfirmed, per the quoted Israeli official.



No, it doesn't make it "easier," and I'm not sure why you'd ask that question given what I said in my post:



It's mainly that in a situation as serious and (understandably) emotionally charged as this one, I believe the most responsible thing one can do is check claims before repeating them to someone else, especially if they sound outrageous and shocking. I think recent instances of unreliable reporting by parts of the media only solidify the importance of doing this, such as when many media outlets hastily attributed the hospital bombing to Israel and Islamic Jihad, respectively, before any robust evidence had been found to corroborate either claim.

I agree that we do have the tendency to believe the worst. I guess since we have seen them chop people's heads off, it isn't hard to believe it but we should have verified evidence.

Thank you for the check-up - however hideous was the burning of babies, killing of babies et al, we shouldn't repeat what we don't know for sure.

Thank you.

At this point we can say "It is a possibility but need to wait for confirmation"

 

[Kenny]

It's mainly that in a situation as serious and (understandably) emotionally charged as this one, I believe the most responsible thing one can do is check claims before repeating them to someone else, especially if they sound outrageous and shocking. I think recent instances of unreliable reporting by parts of the media only solidify the importance of doing this, such as when many media outlets hastily attributed the hospital bombing to Israel and Islamic Jihad, respectively, before any robust evidence had been found to corroborate either claim.

'Toddlers, babies with their heads cut off': Israeli PM's spokesperson describes scene in border village after Hamas attack

Speaking to LBC, Tal Heinrich spokesperson for the Israeli Prime Minister's Office confirmed soldiers on the ground had been dealing with babies who had been decapitated.

www.lbc.co.uk

this is still second hand information since it is reported that soldiers are the ones that said they saw it.

I guess I wouldn't want to see "the confirmation".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

this is still second hand information since ...

Please. Let's wait until we have greater clarity before adding to the noise.

 

[Kenny]

Please. Let's we wait until we have greater clarity before adding to the noise.

DONE!

 

[Monty]

The horrors of this war are unprecedented.
Gaddafi, whom I mention very often expelled Libyan Jews and Italians from Libya in 1970.
He didn't kill them.
He just expelled them exclusively because Italy accepted to retrieve them. And in fact, now in Rome many Libyan Jews live.
As you can see, no matter how controversial decisions can be, in the past there was less cruelty.
And Gaddafi was a moderate leader.

Why are they unprecedented? Afterall the Yank terrorists raped and butchered innocent women and children in My Lai etc, and the senior officers who ordered the massacres then used junior officers as their scape goats. My Lai massacre - Wikipedia

 

[Sargonski]

This conversation. Did you see the title of the thread when you clicked?



Gaza isn't occupied.

I can see you haven't learned any more about the situation since your last reply. You might want to.

Gaza indeed is regularly invaded by the Occupier ... which in this case is more of a Prison warden .. largest open air prison in the world .. controlled .. regularly bomb the power and water ... what they can import restricted. .. so clearly it is you who has much to learn ..but even if your lame blurt was partially true .. that doesn't change the fact that the The "Occupied Territories" are "Occupied" the foreign invader stealing land on a regular basis .. annexing territory just like Russia did .. and so has the right to self defense .. under the UN Charter ..

So much you have to learn my young apprentice .. such little respect for your Peers .. according to the State Dept. Gaza is part of the occupied territories.

Executive Summary. The Occupied Territories, which include the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, are subject to the jurisdiction of Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA), with the division of responsibilities overlapping in much of the territory.

Israel and The Occupied Territories - The Occupied Territories - United States Department of State

www.state.gov

ds

We should be arming these freedom fighters to defend themselves against this evil Terrorist Occupier .. Israel must be forced to stop these Illegal incursions onto Palestinian Territory -- Stealing more and more land violating international law and the UN Charter .. guilty of all manner of war crimes , crimes against humanity ..

Now you understand ?

 

[Left Coast]

Gaza indeed is regularly invaded by the Occupier

You're incorrect from the first sentence. Before you try to teach, you may want to learn some basics.

Israel’s disengagement from Gaza (2005) | Withdrawal, Map, & Hamas

Israel’s disengagement from Gaza, unilateral withdrawal of all Israeli security forces and settlements from the Gaza Strip in August–September 2005. The withdrawal also included the evacuation of four Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but the vast majority of settlements in the West Bank

www.britannica.com

Your position is insane: you're literally advocating that we arm terrorists who want to exterminate Jews and replace Israel with an Islamist caliphate. No thanks.

So again - if you want to continue engaging in this conversation with me, educate yourself. That means go learn more than you currently know rather than continuing to argue. Until then, I won't be engaging further with you.

 

[Sargonski]

You're incorrect from the first sentence. Before you try to teach, you may want to learn some basics.

Israel’s disengagement from Gaza (2005) | Withdrawal, Map, & Hamas

Israel’s disengagement from Gaza, unilateral withdrawal of all Israeli security forces and settlements from the Gaza Strip in August–September 2005. The withdrawal also included the evacuation of four Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but the vast majority of settlements in the West Bank

www.britannica.com

Your position is insane: you're literally advocating that we arm terrorists who want to exterminate Jews and replace Israel with an Islamist caliphate. No thanks.

So again - if you want to continue engaging in this conversation with me, educate yourself. That means go learn more than you currently know rather than continuing to argue. Until then, I won't be engaging further with you.

Israel is still an occupier .. but . what part of .. it makes no difference if they are not an occupier of Gaza .. did you fail to understand. It doesn't matter that you are wrong .. as Israel is an Occupier of the West Bank .. and the other regions listed by the US State Department as Occupied Territories.

My position is not insane .. because I have not given you my position ? I told you what international law states .. the UN Charter - that the Palestinians have the right to self defence against the aggressive occupier- terrorists who wish to exterminate the Palestinians. That they have a right to self determination .. and a right to fight back against the war criminals.

Sorry your education .. or lack therof.. did not include this information .. sorry that it troubles you so much that you feel the need to call names and demonize the messenger while running from the playground.

"educate yourself." - it is not so much about your failing in this respect .. but the inability to learn or understand new information, expecially if it conflicts with the Propaganda tropes you have been ingesting.

 

[Bthoth]

Israel is still an occupier .. but . what part of .. it makes no difference if they are not an occupier of Gaza .. did you fail to understand. It doesn't matter that you are wrong .. as Israel is an Occupier of the West Bank .. and the other regions listed by the US State Department as Occupied Territories.

My position is not insane .. because I have not given you my position ? I told you what international law states .. the UN Charter - that the Palestinians have the right to self defence against the aggressive occupier- terrorists who wish to exterminate the Palestinians. That they have a right to self determination .. and a right to fight back against the war criminals.

Sorry your education .. or lack therof.. did not include this information .. sorry that it troubles you so much that you feel the need to call names and demonize the messenger while running from the playground.

"educate yourself." - it is not so much about your failing in this respect .. but the inability to learn or understand new information, expecially if it conflicts with the Propaganda tropes you have been ingesting.

Terrorism is not an answer. Taking hostages is and will always be wrong. I am aware that israel was born from terrorism (irgun/haganah) but that does not make it useful or good..........ever!

Do i agree, that the palestinians should have had an equal right to a country and self determination, absolutely.

In fact, if the fences came down and equal voting was allowed, that israel would not exist as a one religion label. Especially knowing that not even the Jews of the world accept israel as representing them all.

Here in the USA many Jews are ticked at israel, especially when they know and understand that many of the continuing problems of anti semitism is because of what israel is has been doing to palestinians for the last 70 yrs and then claiming to be a Jewish state.

Just yesterday I heard that a friend was in fear by a cab driver asking if she was Jewish and she just lied and said she was german. I will not repeat what the driver said that he would do if she was Jewish.

If i was there, i would have blown a fuse

 

[Sargonski]

Terrorism is not an answer. Taking hostages is and will always be wrong. I am aware that israel was born from terrorism (irgun/haganah) but that does not make it useful or good..........ever!

Do i agree, that the palestinians should have had an equal right to a country and self determination, absolutely.

In fact, if the fences came down and equal voting was allowed, that israel would not exist as a one religion label. Especially knowing that not even the Jews of the world accept israel as representing them all.

Here in the USA many Jews are ticked at israel, especially when they know and understand that many of the continuing problems of anti semitism is because of what israel is has been doing to palestinians for the last 70 yrs and then claiming to be a Jewish state.

Just yesterday I heard that a friend was in fear by a cab driver asking if she was Jewish and she just lied and said she was german. I will not repeat what the driver said that he would do if she was Jewish.

If i was there, i would have blown a fuse

Ouch .. sad story .. folks need to get off the collective punishment band wagon .. there is a reason why this is a war crime .. and rule of law principle "one person not to be punished for the actions of another" .. and Terrorism during war is always a war crime . and when not in war a crime against humanity .. and Israel been terrorizing the Palestinians for 70 years.

 

[Bthoth]

Ouch .. sad story .. folks need to get off the collective punishment band wagon ..

About perfect

there is a reason why this is a war crime .. and rule of law principle

I know, i have bumped into palestinians here in the west USA, that will use the Jewish name in horrid terms and I have stopped in my tracks to address it. 'Do not condemn the Jewish person for what is happening within that apartheid!' Israel has done more damage to the Jew, than ever helped. Same with the other side of the equation. Here in the USA many hate Islam for what terrorists and extremist have done and that is just sick in the head.

"one person not to be punished for the actions of another" .. and Terrorism during war is always a war crime.

I agree. Some call the acts as incursions or surgical strikes even though innocent lives will be killed.

and when not in war a crime against humanity .. and Israel been terrorizing the Palestinians for 70 years.

I know, i've watched the mess for a long time. Sad part is few understand why the location is so important.

That stupid hill, with the gold domed building, is the prize/required location. The land mass is practically an arm pit with almost no resources and barely fertile enough to support even a small population. Heck without US, israel could barely survive and they just found natural gas in the leviathan field off the coast (neutral waters) which israel was ticked at russia's gazprom for requiring that israel agree to share the wealth with the neighboring countries as a part of the drilling contract.

The mess is so stupid on so many layers, that it is just gross to witness for the last half century.

 

[metis]

They don't get to kill amd injure that many civilians, they don't get to shut off the water to all and claim they aren't.

I'm following it very closely for personal reasons but haven't run across that they supposedly claimed they haven't. BTW, Egypt is hooked up to their system but hasn't turned on the water.

 

[Sargonski]

About perfect

I know, i have bumped into palestinians here in the west USA, that will use the Jewish name in horrid terms and I have stopped in my tracks to address it. 'Do not condemn the Jewish person for what is happening within that apartheid!' Israel has done more damage to the Jew, than ever helped. Same with the other side of the equation. Here in the USA many hate Islam for what terrorists and extremist have done and that is just sick in the head.

I agree. Some call the acts as incursions or surgical strikes even though innocent lives will be killed.

I know, i've watched the mess for a long time. Sad part is few understand why the location is so important.

That stupid hill, with the gold domed building, is the prize/required location. The land mass is practically an arm pit with almost no resources and barely fertile enough to support even a small population. Heck without US, israel could barely survive and they just found natural gas in the leviathan field off the coast (neutral waters) which israel was ticked at russia's gazprom for requiring that israel agree to share the wealth with the neighboring countries as a part of the drilling contract.

The mess is so stupid on so many layers, that it is just gross to witness for the last half century.

Israeli pilots refuse to fly assassination missions​

The 27 pilots sent a letter to the commander of Israel's airforce refusing to carry out duties, which include track and kill operations, in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. One of the pilots told Israeli television that the letter said: "We, veteran pilots and active pilots alike...are opposed to carrying out illegal and immoral attacks, of the type carried out by Israel in the territories.

"We, who have been educated to love the state of Israel refuse to take part in airforce attacks in civilian population centres. We refuse to continue harming innocent civilians."

Israeli pilots refuse to fly assassination missions

A group of Israeli airforce pilots declared yesterday that they would refuse to fly missions which could endanger civilians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

www.theguardian.com

In Israel .. like in the USA .. thre are a bunch of corrupt Neocon's running the show. Many Israeli's are against the Apartheid Occupation and for the two state solution.

 

[Bthoth]

Israeli pilots refuse to fly assassination missions​

Are you sure its not the phosphorus munitions, that they are refusing to use?

In Israel .. like in the USA .. thre are a bunch of corrupt Neocon's running the show. Many Israeli's are against the Apartheid Occupation and for the two state solution.

The 2 state solution will be tough to pull off, because then the palestinians will be able to arm themselves without israel having the control.

Too many upset Palis and I am no longer sure that the 2SS would fix the problem.
The best idea that I could see working is drop the fences and make the state of israel into a democracy in stead of a 'religious' state identifying one religion. The 3 religions of abraham all have a foot hold and as it sits, the majority of Jews on this earth will not move into that apartheid.

 

[Sargonski]

Are you sure its not the phosphorus munitions, that they are refusing to use?


The 2 state solution will be tough to pull off, because then the palestinians will be able to arm themselves without israel having the control.

Too many upset Palis and I am no longer sure that the 2SS would fix the problem.
The best idea that I could see working is drop the fences and make the state of israel into a democracy in stead of a 'religious' state identifying one religion. The 3 religions of abraham all have a foot hold and as it sits, the majority of Jews on this earth will not move into that apartheid.

Could be that too but, the article is about targeted assassinations -- dropping 1000 lb bombs on apartment blocks in the middle of crowded neighborhoods ... keep in mind this was from 2003 .. but they have been doing such war crimes on a regular basis for decades. That some bad guy the IDF doesn't like wanders into a building .. does not justify bombing a building full of civilians.

No different than the lebanese arming themselves .. a State has the right to self defence .. and against Israel they will need to arm themselves to keep the Neocon Zionist Zealots at bay.

 

[Monty]

Before you throw around inflammatory words like genocide, you might want to look at a graph of the Palestinian population over the past 20+ years.

Which is why the Zionists are committing genocide by starving the Palestinian children to death and killing them in the Gaza concentration camp.

 

[Bthoth]

Could be that too but, the article is about targeted assassinations --

Assassinations are specific individual.

dropping 1000 lb bombs on apartment blocks in the middle of crowded neighborhoods ...

Is a blanket murder

keep in mind this was from 2003 .

I was hoping it was current, that the IDF soldiers were learning to keep a conscious of what they were doing.

. but they have been doing such war crimes on a regular basis for decades.

I understand

That some bad guy the IDF doesn't like wanders into a building .. does not justify bombing a building full of civilians.

agreed.

No different than the lebanese arming themselves ..

Lebanon is a separate country.

a State has the right to self defence ..

agreed and must apply to each to be observable when used to claim a defensive posture

and against Israel they will need to arm themselves to keep the Neocon Zionist Zealots at bay.

Actually israel should be keeping their own in check. If they cannot, than 'we the people" USA should be doing it.

 

[Sargonski]

Assassinations are specific individual.

Is a blanket murder

I was hoping it was current, that the IDF soldiers were learning to keep a conscious of what they were doing.

I understand



agreed.

Lebanon is a separate country.

agreed and must apply to each to be observable when used to claim a defensive posture

Actually israel should be keeping their own in check. If they cannot, than 'we the people" USA should be doing it.

You think USA should be keeping the Israeli people in check ? if Israel fails to do so. So when the Israeli Jews in the Settlements go on a rampage .. with protection of the Soldiers .. on Palestinians .. What is it that the USA should be doing to keep these Jewish terrorist gangs in Check ?