Hamas vs. Israel, a thought experiment

[Debater Slayer]

Couple things: 1) Israel is surrounded by enemies who hate them. Hamas is supported by Iran, who is supported by Russia, one of the world's powers. We can go down the list of the other regional powers if you like: Hezbollah in Lebanon, Syria, and so on. And of course we don't need to recount the centuries' long history of people around the world hating and persecuting Jews. 2) Ukraine, if you want to compare the situations, has come out in strong support of Israel and condemned the attack by Hamas. Russia, on the other hand, has been quiet. It was Hamas who invaded Israeli territory that ignited this round of war. So IMHO the US should be supporting both Ukraine's and Israel's rights to defend themselves - which we are doing.

I believe you have good intentions (as I've always found to be the case), but there are a few key points here that I think require so much more context and others that I strongly disagree with, for multiple reasons. We definitely agree on opposing Hamas' attacks on civilians, however.

We could discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict sometime if you would like. I'm just mostly avoiding debates about the subject for now.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hamas has committed atrocities such as mass murder of noncombatants, so one can condemn them without the need for unverified claims. Either way, their attacks have killed children even if the method may not have been decapitation.

Thank you for the important post. The Snopes review is also worth reading.

 

[Kenny]

I keep seeing this claim despite the fact that even an Israeli official has said it was unconfirmed, so here are a few relevant excerpts:

What We Know About Three Widespread Israel-Hamas War Claims - FactCheck.org

Since fighting broke out between Israel and Hamas militants on Oct. 7, misinformation about the war has circulated online. But a widely viewed and shared video supposedly correcting what the video calls "three lies about Palestine" and "atrocity propaganda" also gets some of the facts wrong.

www.factcheck.org

Hamas has committed atrocities such as mass murder of noncombatants, so one can condemn them without the need for unverified claims. Either way, their attacks have killed children even if the method may not have been decapitation.

I would question the sources you quoted:


In a statement to Sky News, the IDF said: "We cannot confirm any numbers. What happened in Kibbutz Kfar Aza is a massacre in which women, children and toddlers and elderly were brutally butchered in an ISIS way of action."

In an interview with Sky's Mark Austin on Tuesday evening, Israeli economy minister Nir Barkat echoed a similar claim: "We've seen just now... we've heard of 40 young boys. Some of them were burned alive. Some were beheaded. Some were shot in the head."

But let's say you are right... no beheading. Just burning of babies alive and killing them... does it make it easier for you?

What we actually know about the viral report of beheaded babies in Israel

One journalist from the Tel Aviv-based news channel i24 said a soldier told her they had "witnessed… bodies of babies with their heads cut off" at the Kfar Aza kibbutz near the Gaza border - but no Israeli officials have confirmed the claim.

news.sky.com

 

[Debater Slayer]

I would question the sources you quoted:


In a statement to Sky News, the IDF said: "We cannot confirm any numbers. What happened in Kibbutz Kfar Aza is a massacre in which women, children and toddlers and elderly were brutally butchered in an ISIS way of action."

In an interview with Sky's Mark Austin on Tuesday evening, Israeli economy minister Nir Barkat echoed a similar claim: "We've seen just now... we've heard of 40 young boys. Some of them were burned alive. Some were beheaded. Some were shot in the head."

I don't know how that contradicts the fact that the specific claim about decapitated babies is unconfirmed, per the quoted Israeli official.

But let's say you are right... no beheading. Just burning of babies alive and killing them... does it make it easier for you?

What we actually know about the viral report of beheaded babies in Israel

One journalist from the Tel Aviv-based news channel i24 said a soldier told her they had "witnessed… bodies of babies with their heads cut off" at the Kfar Aza kibbutz near the Gaza border - but no Israeli officials have confirmed the claim.

news.sky.com

No, it doesn't make it "easier," and I'm not sure why you'd ask that question given what I said in my post:

Hamas has committed atrocities such as mass murder of noncombatants, so one can condemn it without the need for unverified claims. Either way, its attacks have killed children even if the method may not have been decapitation.

It's mainly that in a situation as serious and (understandably) emotionally charged as this one, I believe the most responsible thing one can do is check claims before repeating them to someone else, especially if they sound outrageous and shocking. I think recent instances of unreliable reporting by parts of the media only solidify the importance of doing this, such as when many media outlets hastily attributed the hospital bombing to Israel and Islamic Jihad, respectively, before any robust evidence had been found to corroborate either claim.

 

[Colt]

I don't know how that contradicts the fact that the specific claim about decapitated babies is unconfirmed, per the quoted Israeli official.



No, it doesn't make it "easier," and I'm not sure why you'd ask that question given what I said in my post:



It's mainly that in a situation as serious and (understandably) emotionally charged as this one, I believe the most responsible thing one can do is check claims before repeating them to someone else, especially if they sound outrageous and shocking. I think recent instances of unreliable reporting by parts of the media only solidify the importance of doing this, such as when many media outlets hastily attributed the hospital bombing to Israel and Islamic Jihad, respectively, before any robust evidence had been found to corroborate either claim.

The Hamas terrorists were on drugs!

 

[Debater Slayer]

The Hamas terrorists were on drugs!

I don't know what your source is for that claim, but I don't think it makes any difference to their actions and murder of civilians. The attack was reprehensible either way.

 

[Colt]

I don't know what your source is for that claim, but I don't think it makes any difference to their actions and murder of civilians. The attack was reprehensible either way.

This is the drug Hamas terrorists took to help them slaughter Israelis

MSN​

 

[Debater Slayer]

This is the drug Hamas terrorists took to help them slaughter Israelis​

​

MSN​

I'm cautious about fully believing that article without further reporting in reputable sources, although, as I said, I don't believe this changes anything about Hamas' attack. An attack on noncombatants wouldn't be any less condemnable if no drugs were involved.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Courtesy of the Sam Harris podcast:

We know Hamas uses Palestinian women and children as shields. Rightly knowing that Israelis will tend to hold back.

Now imagine the reverse. Imagine Israelis using their women and children as shields. Imagine Hamas's response.

Not all cultures are - in 2023 - equally moral.

One wonders about what exactly their attitude to all of this is, to refer to the civilian population. Is there a general attitude, or a diverse one? How are they educated (via what they are told, and what they experience) to perceive what is happening around them, and to what degree does it involve what we would consider as trauma, abuse, and possible indoctrination from within? Is there anything happening there that resembles what happens in North Korea, in other words. Or are these people more open and free in their education and learning? I was considering reading a book on gaza, but on searching for one, it turns out there are pages and pages of book written on it. Apparently there is a lot to say about the place

 

[metis]

In the same way Uncle Sam targeted Taliban members.

You didn't answer my question, namely how do you know?

 

[Sargonski]

Then you shouldn't be in the conversation, because they're relevant to it.



They literally just murdered over 1,000 Israelis in cold blood. Raped women in the street. Decapitated babies. What in the world are you talking about?



Hamas is in control of Gaza. Has been since 2006.

You don't know what you're talking about. When you inform yourself a bit more, let me know.

Hamas are relevant to what conversation ? Hamas are not relevant to the crimes against humanity perpetrated against the Palestinian babies. Hamas decapitating 50 babies .. is not justification for Israel decapitating 500 babies in Gaza .. not justification for bull-dozing peoples houses in the Occupied Territories .. not justification for the Occupation itself.

Now .. if you are talking about the right of Self Defense .. Hamas are relevant to the conversation .. and the Israeli's murder of 1000's of Palestinian Children is relevant ..

"decapitated babies" --- were you unaware that when a massive bomb explodes .. leveling a large apartment complex .. it is likely that quiet a few decapitations happen .. along with losing limbs .. all kinds of nasty things . So to clarify .. when big bombs explode in crowded neighborhoods .. people get hurt .. and often killed .. decapitation just one of the ways .. you understand how ? Gooooood

"Hamas in control of Gaza" -- holy "Who Cares" and ridiculously bad argument. Now you may know almost nothing about the rule of Law .. so let us assist - "One person not to be punished for the actions of another" -- is one such principle. Following on that principle .. which is also the main teaching of Jesus - as well as a teaching of Buddha - Confucius - Hammurabi - Judaism .. and so on -
Collective punishment is a war crime under international law.

The Azov Nazi's were in Control of parts of Ukraine .... does not justify Russia going in and carpet bombing the place.
Israeli Terrorists are in control of Israel - does not Justify Carpet bombing of Jerusalem .. nor the war crimes committed by Hamas.

Sorry friend -- I can not bring myself to punish mass numbers of Palestinian children and babies for the crimes of Hamas .. any more than I can bring myself to punish Israeli Babies for the crimes of Israel .. which by far out number the crimes of Hamas and the Palestinians.

 

[Sargonski]

So, are you saying that you know that Israel has been targeting them?

Indeed we know Israel regularly targets civilians .. been found guilty of war crimes - crimes againt humanity countless times over this 70 year long blood feud.

and just to be clear .. you cant drop a thousand lb bomb on a crowded apartment building.. because some "Bad guy" you are targeting walked walked into that building .. and not be guilty of war crimes .. the "Human Shields" justification is a lie .. so don't be duped by that one .. In every war the people cold be classified as human sheilds by both sides .. does not excuse War Crime .. Collective punishment ..

and how many examples would you like btw ? why are you even talking on this topic without at least that much knowledte of what is going on .. go do some learning perhaps .. then come back once the basic understanding of of the situation is understood.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm cautious about fully believing that article without further reporting in reputable sources, although, as I said, I don't believe this changes anything about Hamas' attack. An attack on noncombatants wouldn't be any less condemnable if no drugs were involved.

I find it hardly any different than claiming they were demonically possessed or not human. They didn't need the drugs to kill. We saw during WWII stimulants help, but the hatred, hostility, agression and rage was already there.
Just because we can't understand or comprehend killing people doesn't mean others need chemical assistance to do it with ease. Those high on god have been doing for a long time.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You didn't answer my question, namely how do you know?

They don't get to kill amd injure that many civilians, they don't get to shut off the water to all and claim they aren't. And their statement that if there's a Hamas target they are going after it, yeah, that's just like Uncle Sam targeting the Taliban except that's nit how it really worked out.

 

[Estro Felino]

I find it hardly any different than claiming they were demonically possessed or not human. They didn't need the drugs to kill. We saw during WWII stimulants help, but the hatred, hostility, agression and rage was already there.
Just because we can't understand or comprehend killing people doesn't mean others need chemical assistance to do it with ease. Those high on god have been doing for a long time.

The horrors of this war are unprecedented.
Gaddafi, whom I mention very often expelled Libyan Jews and Italians from Libya in 1970.
He didn't kill them.
He just expelled them exclusively because Italy accepted to retrieve them. And in fact, now in Rome many Libyan Jews live.
As you can see, no matter how controversial decisions can be, in the past there was less cruelty.
And Gaddafi was a moderate leader.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The horrors of this war are unprecedented.
in the past there was less cruelty.

WWII was way worse. Kill them all amd let god sort them out is a paraphrasing of a Papal Edict. The Inquisitions and Crusades would be traumatic for all involved today. "Happy is he who dashes your little ones against the rocks" is Bronze Age, Biblical warfare that killed everyone except the young women to take as sex slaves.

 

[Left Coast]

I keep seeing this claim despite the fact that even an Israeli official has said it was unconfirmed, so here are a few relevant excerpts:

What We Know About Three Widespread Israel-Hamas War Claims - FactCheck.org

Since fighting broke out between Israel and Hamas militants on Oct. 7, misinformation about the war has circulated online. But a widely viewed and shared video supposedly correcting what the video calls "three lies about Palestine" and "atrocity propaganda" also gets some of the facts wrong.

www.factcheck.org

Hamas has committed atrocities such as mass murder of noncombatants, so one can condemn it without the need for unverified claims. Either way, its attacks have killed children even if the method may not have been decapitation.

I am so sorry. Hamas murdered infants by means other than decapitation, perhaps.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I keep seeing this claim despite the fact that even an Israeli official has said it was unconfirmed,

I am so sorry. Hamas murdered infants by means other than decapitation, perhaps.

I am so sorry that you find care and accuracy to be of so little value.

 

[Left Coast]

I believe you have good intentions (as I've always found to be the case), but there are a few key points here that I think require so much more context and others that I strongly disagree with, for multiple reasons. We definitely agree on opposing Hamas' attacks on civilians, however.

We could discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict sometime if you would like. I'm just mostly avoiding debates about the subject for now.

You're always thoughtful and nice to talk to, DS. Happy to have a conversation with you when you're ready. I have had my own things happening in my personal life that you know about, so I understand not being ready to do something that might generate more stress.

 

[Left Coast]

I am so sorry that you find care and accuracy to be of so little value.

Right, because out of the thousands of posts of mine on this website, the one thing that's clear about me is that I hate the truth and I don't care about anyone.

Israel releases images of slain children to rally support

Israel's government showed U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and NATO defence ministers graphic images of dead children and civilians on Thursday, saying they were killed by Palestinian group Hamas as it builds support for its response.

www.reuters.com