Hands up who believes in the Trinity!

[Hirohito18200]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Is it worty condemning someone to hell for something you do not and can not fully understand?

 

[Katzpur]

I believe the doctrine is explained, it's the part where you have 3 entities, but only one. We can kind of grasp that, but not fully understand. It's like space goes on for ever. We know this but we truely cannot understand this. Or time has always been here. We, our brains, cannot fully deal with that

But this makes no sense: "you have three entities but only one." What on earth does that even mean? It sounds like something that was memorized as "the truth," but never really even considered as being plausible.

The one thing that confuses me most of all is why the Biblical explanation of the nature of God is not sufficient. Why the need to complicate Him? Surely you will agree that the Creeds are more difficult to grasp than the simple purity of the scriptures. I know you said previously that you don't know a whole lot about the Creeds since you are a recent convert to Catholicism. But the Baptist Church, of which you were formerly a member, also accepts the Creedal definition of God, doesn't it? And regardless of how much you say you know about the Creeds, virtually everything you claim to believe about the nature of God corresponds to what the Creeds say He is. You couldn't possibly have formulated the beliefs you have about Him simply from reading the Bible. Somewhere along the line, whether you took your beliefs directly from the Creeds or not, you were obviously influenced by them.

Also, Trinitarians always refer to God's "substance" or "essence," saying that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all a part of the same substance or essence. And yet, as many times as I've asked the question, "What is God's essence?", no one has even attempted to answer me. It doesn't seem like such an unreasonable question to me, but I'm still looking for an answer to it.

Kathryn

 

[jeffrey]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Is it worty condemning someone to hell for something you do not and can not fully understand?

Who's being condemned to hell? There is nothing in the Bible anywhere that states that you must believe in the Trinity. And what might have happened hundreds of years ago, I can't speak for. Whether or not you believe in the Trinity is not that important, it's accepting Jesus Christ into your life. Now That's my opinion, not that of this program, management, it's affiliates or sponsors.

 

[Hirohito18200]

Whether or not you believe in the Trinity is not that important, it's accepting Jesus Christ into your life. Now That's my opinion, not that of this program, management, it's affiliates or sponsors.

heh good call, that's all I was after ^^. In a way I'd like to press the issue of denying the divinity of Christ and still being accepted by the Christian God, but there's really no need, i've accomplished what I set out to do lol.

 

[jeffrey]

Kathryn, since this morning I have tried to get as much info on the Creeds as possible. The Apostles' Creed I say as part of the Rosary. As far as the Trinity goes, most of that came from my own studies. Reading both pro and con. The Trinity makes sense to me. I don't believe in multiple Gods. I don't believe the God I Worship is just the 'Western Marketing God'. One God. A part of him became 'flesh' to speak to man directly. Another thread talked about time. God knows what will happen because He's already been there. Another thing we connot fully grasp.

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

Well, Thisshouldmakesense You should know that I believe in the Trinity from your last attempt at this which you failed to finish.( http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=164877&highlight=trinity#post164877 ) Is this thread going to end up the same way?

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

I can't remember why i didn't finish that one. I probably got into another thread and forgot about it. But anyway. to your question. It's up to you mate. Like you know, i could go on till the cows come home. the thing is, both sides of the argument are convinced they are right and no matter how many scriptures we show each other, we wont back down. the difference i find, is that when i use some scriptures to dispute the trinity, they ussually ignore them and come up with another set of scrptures that they try to use, to prove the trinity. Like i said, we need to reason on the scriptures, as did Paul. Forget what we have been taught. Let's go back to the Bible. Look at context. Compare scriptures. Look at the original language. look at different translations to get a fuller meaning.
i aslo hear a lot from trinitarians that it isn't for us to understand...not in this life time etc. (which, makes sense if you're talking about the trinity...)Well, if God didn't want us to find out who he really is, then why bother coming to us in the first place with the bible? Jesus said that he has made His, that is God's name manifest. Now i ask you, what was that name? Who was his God? How can Jesus, if he is equal with the Father, ever have a God and be God at the same time?

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

Philippians 2:6 By nature, Jesus is GOD.

Colossians 2:9 In Jesus the FULLNESS of God DWELLS in bodily form

God is pan-dimensional and Jesus is his physical incarnation. Just because you can't understand it does not make it true.

Lets look at that scripture shall we? Look at the context!


5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6who, though he was in the form of God*, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore God has highly exalted him** and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



*not 'was God'
**GOD exalted him, not he himself. It would read 'He exalted himself' if he was God.
***Jesus glorified the father. Not himself. He directed all glory to his father, when on earth.
***

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

Who's being condemned to hell? There is nothing in the Bible anywhere that states that you must believe in the Trinity. And what might have happened hundreds of years ago, I can't speak for. Whether or not you believe in the Trinity is not that important, it's accepting Jesus Christ into your life. Now That's my opinion, not that of this program, management, it's affiliates or sponsors.

No one is condemned to hell as it doesn't exist, but that's another thread.
and there is nowhere that says you must believe the trinity, but you must know who God is. he exacts exclusive devotion, don't forget. And he is a jealous God.
And it's the doing of God's will that's important, not just accepting Jesus into your life. even he said that. accepting isn't enough. Matthew 7:22,23

'On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


And I've said it before and i'll say it again. John 17:3
'And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.'
So, if you don't know/understand/comprehend the only true God (note: THE ONLY TRUE GOD) then you won't get eternal life.

 

[Mister Emu]

Thisshouldmakesense,

did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Big difference.

The fact is that the NT emphatically states that Jesus is God, the Father is God, but that Jesus is not the Father.

Gen. 1 tells us that God created the heavens and the earth and all the things therein.
John 1 tells us that Jesus created everything that has ever been created.

Besides that John shows the truth of the trinity, "the word was with God, and the word was God". Both with God and God, different yet the same.

Matthew 7:22,23

'On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

This verse shows the fullness of error in the saved by works philosophy. No amount of works can save you. Lord, Lord, look at all I have done for you, I have prophesied, I cast out demons in your name, I did many mighty works in your name."

No one is condemned to hell as it doesn't exist, but that's another thread.

Tell me why then, the fiery pit where things do not die is talked about more than heaven?

Edit:

Before anyone comes and says John 1 is supposed to be read, "the word was a god"

Isaiah 43:10

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

 

[jeffrey]

Well stated Mr. Emu! And ThisShouldMakeSense, when you quoted Matthew, it says know him, not fully understand who he is. A child knows it's parents, but does not understand them. And you accuse the people that believe the Trinity of dodging your guestions, yet you, yourself, are doing a pretty good job of evasion. You, yourself are answering scripture with scripture. So answer this. Iow as stated in The Gospel of John, how when can Jesus be with God and is God at the same time?

 

[glasgowchick]

Glasgowchick, you skipped this and I would like a comment.
Since trinity is based on the divine(i. e. Jesus is divine/divinity)
Divine in Hebrew is spelled Noon Ches Shin. Pronounced naw khash. (meaning enchanter)
We come to Greek and the word is now turned upside down and is Theios.(meaning Godhead)
The serpent is spelled noon ches shin in Hebrew. Isn't it very (Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!)!
Is Jesus a serpent or is the serpent the Godhead?

Hi Ronald, just don't understand what your getting at, still don't sorry.

 

[glasgowchick]

Lets look at that scripture shall we? Look at the context!


5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6who, though he was in the form of God*, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore God has highly exalted him** and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



*not 'was God'
**GOD exalted him, not he himself. It would read 'He exalted himself' if he was God.
***Jesus glorified the father. Not himself. He directed all glory to his father, when on earth.
***

And all that is saying is the fact that "JESUS" as a human being he prayed to and depened on his father like we do, but his diety was not changed..Jesus prayed to his Father in John 17:5 " And now Oh Father Glorify thou me with thine own self with the Glory which I had with thee before the world began...Jesus was going back up to the place were he belonged, with His father who he was with the in the very begining before the world began..

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

And you accuse the people that believe the Trinity of dodging your guestions, yet you, yourself, are doing a pretty good job of evasion. You, yourself are answering scripture with scripture. So answer this. Iow as stated in The Gospel of John, how when can Jesus be with God and is God at the same time?

I know, that is what i said. I wouldn't call it evasion, ore reasoning from the scriptures..anyhoo, in answer to your question, they can't.
that is the exact question i ask a trinitarian. i say that it makes no sense for someone to be 'with' someone and then actually 'be' that someone at the same time. also, consider verses 14 and 18. i mean, you say that John clearly says Jesus is God in verse 1 and 2, however verse 18 says 'No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.'
is he contradicting himself? cos verse 14 said 'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.'
by the way, thanks for answering the my questions...

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

And all that is saying is the fact that "JESUS" as a human being he prayed to and depened on his father like we do, but his diety was not changed..Jesus prayed to his Father in John 17:5 " And now Oh Father Glorify thou me with thine own self with the Glory which I had with thee before the world began...Jesus was going back up to the place were he belonged, with His father who he was with the in the very begining before the world began..

So how is he the same person then?!?!!?

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

one more question. do trinitarians believe that the father isn't God, Jesus isn't God, and the Holy Spirit isn't God. None of them in themselves, but that they altogether make up God?

 

[Mister Emu]

So how is he the same person then?!?!!?

Don't know sorry, but that is the trinity, three seperate persons, one eternal being.

one more question. do trinitarians believe that the father isn't God, Jesus isn't God, and the Holy Spirit isn't God. None of them in themselves, but that they altogether make up God?

I don't. Jesus is fully God, the Father is fully God, the Holy spirit is fully God. They are all God, they are all seperate, they are all one.

 

[James the Persian]

Don't know sorry, but that is the trinity, three seperate persons, one eternal being.

I don't. Jesus is fully God, the Father is fully God, the Holy spirit is fully God. They are all God, they are all seperate, they are all one.

Quite right. All are fully God, separately and together. As for ThisShouldMakeSense's question, the three don't make one person - we believe in one God in three Hypostases (Persons is the slightly dodgy English translation), not one Person, God, who is made up of three Persons (the individual Hypostases). It's amazing how many people criticise the Trinity without actually understanding what the doctrine says (and this is very different to fully grasping what it means, which as I've said before is beyond created minds' abilities).

James

 

[ThisShouldMakeSense]

Don't know sorry, but that is the trinity, three seperate persons, one eternal being.

just as i thought....it's a 'mystery'....obviously then a trinity wasn't something Jesus said when he said '... We do know what we are worshiping [we worship what we have knowledge of and understand],...(John 4:22)
Do you really know the God you worship?

I don't. Jesus is fully God, the Father is fully God, the Holy spirit is fully God. They are all God, they are all seperate, they are all one.

What!?!??! AAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!! I'm gunna cry!! Repeat that last sentence, to yourself, out loud and tell me it makes sense!!

:help:

 

[Mister Emu]

Do you really know the God you worship?

Knowledge and understanding are distinctly seperate issues. I know my God, however I do not presume to understand.

What!?!??! AAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!! I'm gunna cry!! Repeat that last sentence, to yourself, out loud and tell me it makes sense!!

Not really, though why does it have to. You would limit God to your mental abilities of understanding? :tsk:

 

[Scuba Pete]

TSMS,

methinks you have twisted this wonderful scripture. Let's move away from a paraphrase...

John 4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." NIV

John 16:12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. NIV