Hard polytheism v. soft polytheism in Hinduism, textual sources?

[Kirran]

Many Tamilians also think that Murugan is Supreme.

That's a new one to me, I didn't know anybody did that. Is there any particular name for people thinking Murugan is the Supreme? Along the lines of Shakta, Saura, Shaiva...

That's major denomination number seven for me

 

[Chakra]

That's a new one to me, I didn't know anybody did that. Is there any particular name for people thinking Murugan is the Supreme? Along the lines of Shakta, Saura, Shaiva...

That's major denomination number seven for me

Kaumaram.

The main theological deniminations are Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism, Saurum, Ganapatyam, Kaumaram, and Smartism.

 

[Kirran]

Kaumaram.

The main theological deniminations are Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism, Saurum, Ganapatyam, Kaumaram, and Smartism.

Fantastic. That was my seven. Thanks.

 

[Vinayaka]

Kirran, I'm not that familiar with the situation in TN. There are some 60 million people there. But certainly it was true in Mauritius, where the Indian indentured labour split into two groups ... North and South, with two styles of temples, the Tamil style and the North style. They operated as if they were two separate religions for quite some time. The Hindu religion, and the Tamil religion. So Shiva (because it was of the north) was practically discarded. So it made for an interesting study. Personally, I think it would be determined mostly by just who, (I mean from where) and how many indentured labour arrived in these settings.

 

[Kirran]

Kirran, I'm not that familiar with the situation in TN. There are some 60 million people there. But certainly it was true in Mauritius, where the Indian indentured labour split into two groups ... North and South, with two styles of temples, the Tamil style and the North style. They operated as if they were two separate religions for quite some time. The Hindu religion, and the Tamil religion. So Shiva (because it was of the north) was practically discarded. So it made for an interesting study. Personally, I think it would be determined mostly by just who, (I mean from where) and how many indentured labour arrived in these settings.

That's some fascinating perspective on this.

I'd be really interested to head out to other countries with Hindu populations derived similarly from indentured labour, like Suriname, Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago, South Africa, Fiji, to see what the situations are like there, and whether a different composition of people in the early years has made things very different in the present day from the Mauritian situation.

 

[Chakra]

I have always been fascinated with the South Indian style of worship, whether for Shiva or Vishnu. North Indian temples are usually new, and are so crowded and loud. But South Indian temples are ancient, quiet, and in a way have more of a spiritual aura.

 

[Vinayaka]

But South Indian temples are ancient, quiet, and in a way have more of a spiritual aura.

Depends on the temple. Both north and South.

But as for vibratory rate ... one word ... agamas.

 

[Vinayaka]

That's some fascinating perspective on this.

I'd be really interested to head out to other countries with Hindu populations derived similarly from indentured labour, like Suriname, Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago, South Africa, Fiji, to see what the situations are like there, and whether a different composition of people in the early years has made things very different in the present day from the Mauritian situation.

I know people from all those places, and yes they do vary .. substantially, and many have their own very unique styles. Mauritians are quite French, and South Africans are quite British, for example.

Other places like Jamaica and other islands in the Caribbean have lost their Hinduism entirely except for some remnants in food especially. This was due to much smaller populations originally. Just a few people.

 

[Poeticus]

I have always been fascinated with the South Indian style of worship, whether for Shiva or Vishnu. North Indian temples are usually new, and are so crowded and loud. But South Indian temples are ancient, quiet, and in a way have more of a spiritual aura.

Plus, the South gave us Rekha. And that's a feat the North can't really top.

 

[StarryNightshade]

Do you believe in the separate existence of Jehovah, for example? Or Thor?

If Sri Vaishnavism was monotheistic, would that mean that it wouldn't even acknowledge the existence of Surya? I was always inclined to think that Sri Vaishnavism was wholly monotheistic, but I am interested to hear your conclusions after listening to your Guru.

Okay, before I answer your questions, I think @Vinayaka gave a great explanation on Henotheism:

In my version of henotheism, it's God and gods, but the other gods aren't Supreme Gods. To have more than one Supreme God would be contradictory. So to me, Vishnu and Siva are the same God, although I only actively worship one of them. Whereas Ganesha, Murugan, etc are indeed separate.

This is pretty much my take. To me, Vishnu is God. However, there are many other gods and divine beings. Some of whom are considered supreme by others. Some are not. Some of which emanate from Vishnu, while others are their own entities.

@Kirran, I don't think whether or not I think they exist is relevant. They could for all I know, but they are not very important to my practice. As such, I think it is best to acknowledge that they exist as per their devotees and religions are concerned, but also acknowledge that they are not important (or even relevant) to my theology.

@axlyz, Surya is a god, but he is not God. To me anyway. To some, he is God.

 

[Chakra]

Just a question, but what do you mean by "own entities"? Like they are self-dependent people who don't need Vishnu to sustain themselves?

 

[StarryNightshade]

Just a question, but what do you mean by "own entities"? Like they are self-dependent people who don't need Vishnu to sustain themselves?

No, they are not self-dependent per se. They all have their own separate attributes, but they still have a spark of Vishnu within them. These would be Ganesha, Lakshmi, Murugan, the Alwars, etc. I would say that this is akin to Vishishtadvaita.

Wheres Shiva, and others like Indra, Agni, and the Avatars, are directly emanated from Narayana and are him in different modes.

Some are direct emanations and are Vishnu himself, while others are separate entities with a spark of Narayana within. Nevertheless, all are connected with Vishnu in one form or another.

 

[Chakra]

No, they are not self-dependent per se. They all have their own separate attributes, but they still have a spark of Vishnu within them. These would be Ganesha, Lakshmi, Murugan, the Alwars, etc. I would say that this is akin to Vishishtadvaita.

Wheres Shiva, and others like Indra, Agni, and the Avatars, are directly emanated from Narayana and are him in different modes.

Some are direct emanations and are Vishnu himself, while others are separate entities with a spark of Narayana within. Nevertheless, all are connected with Vishnu in one form or another.

Okay, thanks for telling me your conclusions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but I still am not sure if every God and Deva is a complete separate entity in and of themselves. So, basically, I'm somewhere in between "hard" and "soft" polytheism (if that really is the correct word).

Vishishtadvaita is midway thing between dvaita and advaita, so no wonder.
Both ways, same but not the same.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Do you believe in the separate existence of Jehovah, for example? Or Thor?

Jehovah is a non-entity for me, being a monotheistic God. Thor exists, he is the God of my brother pagan people.

What's your take on those who think of Ganesha as the Supreme God?

Ganesha is a powerful God, but cannot be supreme other than for his devotees. But they also have to acknowledge that Ganesha is Shiva and Parvati's son, and the parents are greater than the son.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Just wondering, but where does Durga/Parvati come into all of this? What is she to you?

For some she is the creatrix, the primordial power. For others, she arose out of the sweat of the consorts of the three major Gods and was given full powers by all Gods (Shiva gave the trident and the third eye, Vishnu gave the Chakra and the mace, Brahma gave the gourd, Indra gave the Vajra, Death gave the noose, etc.). She is the most powerful of all Gods and Goddesses and mother to all Hindus.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Plus, the South gave us Rekha. And that's a feat the North can't really top.

Aishvarya too. But then North has its Priyanka, Pretty Zinta. Madhuri and Amisha Partel are in-between.

 

[Poeticus]

Aishvarya too. But then North has its Priyanka, Pretty Zinta. Madhuri and Amisha Partel are in-between.

Totally forgot about Madhuri. And Madhubala, too. But I forgot to mention the South giving us Sridevi. I guess it's even now, because a Madhuri+Madhubala combo can most certainly hold it down.