Harris, Peterson and the evils and spread of Postmodernism

[Shadow Wolf]

As for valid terms, I'd be happy to join you in a separate thread.

And, just trust me, you don't want the confusion that can very easily arise and overtake a discussion when people are getting confused because this lack of clarity is having to be climbed over. Even for me, it makes any conversation regarding gender dysphoria and transitioning a million times easier to follow and discuss (and outside of such conversations I don't resort to either term).

 

[icehorse]

I'm not going based on how it "should be," I'm going on how it is

And I'm going on a parsimonious reading of the DOJ's definition of gender identity, and of the Bill.

As for terms - isn't "straight cis" redundant?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As for terms - isn't "straight cis" redundant?

No, because someone who is cis can be either homosexual or heterosexual, or bisexual or asexual, or whatever, just as someone who is trans can be whatever with their sexuality. Such as, for myself it would be "straight trans" female because I am transition from male to female, I am attracted to men, my gender identity is female, and within the near future that will also be my legal sex.

 

[icehorse]

No, because someone who is cis can be either homosexual or heterosexual, or bisexual or asexual, or whatever, just as someone who is trans can be whatever with their sexuality. Such as, for myself, it would be "straight trans" female.

I'd be interested in your definition, because the definitions I've looked up all include some phrase like "society appropriate", which seems ambiguous.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'd be interested in your definition, because the definitions I've looked up all include some phrase like "society appropriate", which seems ambiguous.

Definition of cis, straight, or both?

 

[icehorse]

Definition of cis, straight, or both?

Well to be on the safe side, both would be great.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well to be on the safe side, both would be great.

Cisgender/cissexual just means that your gender identity aligns with the sex of your body. So, for example, a person who was assigned male at birth and identifies as male. "Cis" basically means "on the same side of".

Straight means heterosexual. Gender identity and sexual orientation are two different things.

 

[icehorse]

Cisgender/cissexual just means that your gender identity aligns with the sex of your body. So, for example, a person who was assigned male at birth and identifies as male. "Cis" basically means "on the same side of".

Straight means heterosexual. Gender identity and sexual orientation are two different things.

So when a person undergoes operations to change their sex, does their "cis" change with the results of the operations?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well to be on the safe side, both would be great.

Straight is a dated term to mean heterosexual/attracted sexually to the opposite sex. Personally I don't consider it offensive, as some younger people might, but it's the term I we used when I was younger, and it has the advantage of being only one syllable long.
Cis is a prefix of Latin origins that means "on the same side of." This is used when discussion gender to denote someone who's biology and gender identity are the same. And outside of such discussions, the term really serves no use or purpose given it isn't necessary to differentiate between a cis-man and a trans-man.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So when a person undergoes operations to change their sex, does their "cis" change with the results of the operations?

"Cis change"? That doesn't mean anything. If a person considers their transition complete, they may consider themselves cis, sure.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So when a person undergoes operations to change their sex, does their "cis" change with the results of the operations?

To my understanding it's sex at birth to gender that determines cis/trans. A post OP trans man is still trans, not cis, after transitioning.

 

[Nous]

Well I would guess that we could use DNA analysis to determine race. And as I said earlier, I don't think bringing religion into this discussion is appropriate, because we *should not* have bias in the law based on religion (although many religious folks advocate for such bias). But we DO have many initiatives in place to level the field, making it easier for women to compete more equally across all domains.

I'm not sure I understand why you're bringing sexual orientation into the conversation? For example, I would guess that title IX applies equally to straight girls and gay girls, correct?

So the reason I think this issue is unique is because of gender specific laws.

You need to concentrate on this fact: Like "gender identity or expression," identifying groups in the law on the basis of race, relligion and sexual orientation according exclusively to how the person identifies him/herself. So all the problems and fears and "gaming the system" that you imagine people being able to do because of the phrase "gender identity or expression," which you have well demonstrated have no basis in reality, could just as easily happen with designations of "race," "religion" and "sexual orientation" in the law.

And after all, as many people have noted, a university applicant can include or exclude him/herself from race-based admission policies ("affirmative action") simply by checking a box on a form. There is no objective method to determine if a person is "Black" or "Hispanic" or "Asian" or "white". Those are not biological or genetic categories.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There is no objective method to determine if a person is "Black" or "Hispanic" or "Asian" or "white". Those are not biological or genetic categories.

I've always wanted to witness what would happen when someone refers to a black person who is British, or Japanese, or Nigerian, or anywhere else but America, as an African-American. Not to be mean, or try to make a comical spectacle of the situation, but to me it's one of the most obvious scenarios for demonstrating why skin color based labels don't work, which goes back to something I have wondered since a kid is why do we call them black they're brown? Were is this red that Native Americans have (though even now there are plenty of European-descended natives of America)? To me, yellow skin says jaundice, not Oriental. But, even then, with Oriental, a lot of different "localized ethnicities" don't appreciate being lumped in together.
Myself, I just try to avoid the labels unless it's relative. It makes things so much easier.

 

[icehorse]

You need to concentrate on this fact: Like "gender identity or expression," identifying groups in the law on the basis of race, relligion and sexual orientation according exclusively to how the person identifies him/herself. So all the problems and fears and "gaming the system" that you imagine people being able to do because of the phrase "gender identity or expression," which you have well demonstrated have no basis in reality, could just as easily happen with designations of "race," "religion" and "sexual orientation" in the law.

And after all, as many people have noted, a university applicant can include or exclude him/herself from race-based admission policies ("affirmative action") simply by checking a box on a form. There is no objective method to determine if a person is "Black" or "Hispanic" or "Asian" or "white". Those are not biological or genetic categories.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that that's all true. Why add yet another opportunity for ne'er do wells?

 

[Nous]

Why add yet another opportunity for ne'er do wells?

So the most important thing to you is to ensure at all costs that there is no possibility, no matter how far-fetched, that someone with an XY chromosome might get an SBA loan reserved for women or might avoid the draft. It doesn't matter how many transgender people suffer discrimination or hate crimes as long as no one with an XY chromosome gets an opportunity to partake in women's legal privileges.

And you want us to believe that your complaints and solutions here are not motivated by bigotry?

I hope you're able to open your eyes some day.

 

[icehorse]

And you want us to believe that your complaints and solutions here are not motivated by bigotry?

I think I've had enough of your implications that I'm lying.

 

[Nous]

I think I've had enough of your implications that I'm lying.

You would do well to try to understand how absurdly ridiculous your claims have been about this law (and others like it). There's obviously a reason motivating such absurdity--and it isn't because there is some real threat of women's SBA programs getting usurped by people with XY chromosomes.

 

[icehorse]

You would do well to try to understand how absurdly ridiculous your claims have been about this law (and others like it). There's obviously a reason motivating such absurdity--and it isn't because there is some real threat of women's SBA programs getting usurped by people with XY chromosomes.

You would do well to see past your own preconceived notions. Start by reading Harrison Bergenon. My concerns are more sweeping than you are imagining, and based on your proclivity to read minds, which you're bad at, my concerns aren't worth attempting to describe to you, because you don't actually listen.

 

[Nous]

You would do well to see past your own preconceived notions. Start by reading Harrison Bergenon. My concerns are more sweeping than you are imagining, and based on your proclivity to read minds, which you're bad at, my concerns aren't worth attempting to describe to you, because you don't actually listen.

Your "concerns" have no basis in reality, as you have well demonstrated.

 

[icehorse]

Your "concerns" have no basis in reality, as you have well demonstrated.

Your concerns are overly narrow, as you have well demonstrated.