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Harsh Truth: If Intelligent Design is Untestable . . .

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
You've actually got a valid point here.

I'd say intelligent design is falsifiable (in the sense that alternative explanations can be tested), but not exactly provable. How would you prove it? Even if alternative theories had failed, that still wouldn't be evidence for intelligent design because there could still be a different, successful theory that had not yet been proposed. If you roll a die, and accidentally drop it down a drain in the street so that you can't see what the result of the roll was, a person can't use your inability to prove that it landed on a "5" as evidence that it actually landed on a "2".
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
. . . Then Darwinian Evolution is untestable. If intelligent design is unfalsifiable, then Darwinian evolution is unprovable.

Why? Logic 101.

They're opposing answers to the same question, thus, any test for one will inherently test the other.
Any evidence for one will be evidence against the other.
Any proof of one will be proof against the other. proving one will falsify the other (and vice versa).

When Darwinists say we can't falsify the claim that biology is a product of design, they're unwittingly confessing that they can't prove biology is the product of blind nature.

When Darwinists say we can't prove the claim that biology is a product of design, they're unwittingly confessing that they can't falsify the claim that biology is the product of blind nature.

The only reasonable conclusion is that either both are science, or neither is science.

Food for thought. I eagerly await your flimsy excuses.
Evolution is a scientific theory. A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation. Creationism is not. While both are most likely unproveable (or falsifiable) in the absolute sense, evolution has been backup up with experimentation, testing, and observations, which is why it is not merely a "theory", but a "scientific theory."

You are discussing both as if they are merely hypotheses, which is often the problem. If they were both theoretical, then what you are saying would be accurate according to the rules of logic. However, evolution is testable and observable, and has been for quite some time. Creationism, on the other hand, is not objectively testable or observable. It is merely a theory not based on evidence. In reality, a lot of people even try to claim that a lack of evidence or explanation from science somehow provides proof for the supernatural, when nothing could be further from the truth. Any absence of explanation would merely be due to the fact that we haven't discovered the explanation YET. There should never be a jump to the supernatural, as that is merely a "God of the gaps" argument, devoid of any merit.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It makes me think of.....
88c92a42ac4b41fb_8424f0a95a24f177_o1-480x588.jpg
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
It's Richard Dawkins' term, not mine, so if you don't like it, blame him, not me. Personally, I think it's a good term which creates a clear distinction in the debate.

Watchmaker Evolution: Any variation of evolution which posits that a directing intelligence is responsible for the history of life's development.

Blind Watchmaker Evolution: Any variation of evolution which posits that life's development is the result of blind, non-intentional mechanisms and/or forces (random mutations, etc.).

I always disliked that "find a watch on the beach" argument, coined in . . . let's see. . . 1802. We've learned a few things about the natural world since then.

Using a watch to describe biology is a terrible analogy. A watch is a finished product. It suggests that whatever has been designed is finished being designed.

So which species on earth, at this moment in history, gets to be "the watch"? Based on size, the blue whale is the final product. Based on numbers, we'd pick the nematode. Based on genetic adaptability, maybe the water flea? Source: Water Flea Genome is the Most Complex Yet, and May Help Scientists Study Organisms' Response to Stress | Popular Science

Oh whoops, these are only animals. . . if we look at ALL of life, these answers are all wrong.

Or are we referring to a specific species at a moment of history in 1802, when the metaphor of the watch was found? Let's look at a time line and see which species are out of the running between 1802 and now. That should narrow it down. . .

Species Extinction Time Line | Animals Lost SInce 1600

How many species do you think have evolved since 1802?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Evolution is a scientific theory.

theory
ˈθɪəri/
noun
  1. a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
    "Darwin's theory of evolution"
    synonyms: hypothesis, thesis, conjecture, supposition, speculation, postulation, postulate, proposition,premise, surmise, assumption, presumption, presupposition, notion, guess, hunch, feeling, suspicion;

    A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.

    "Well-substantiated" is a matter of interpreting the "evidence". If said "evidence" is misinterpreted because the "supposition" is skewed towards confirming a pre-conceived notion, then we have no "substantiation" at all. We have educated guesswork.

    Creationism is not.

    When we see evidence of processes in biology and in the natural bio-systems on this planet that exhibit brilliant design, our own logic has to steer us towards a brilliant designer. What complex instrument or tool that we use in our profession, that is brilliantly designed, does not give credit to its designer?

    Your computer had a designer and maker.....the components in that computer are each separately and carefully designed and manufactured to work in conjunction with each other, and then they are assembled in the right order. Any mistake would lead to a non-functioning piece of useless technology.

    Without electricity, it would also be completely useless. Without the Internet, it would not connect to the rest of the world and its usefulness would be limited. Without someone to program the computer to perform its tasks, again it would be useless. Each of those things came into existence by design....very intelligent design.....and yet, science tells us that the computer that exists in our head didn't require a designer or maker at all....it just happened as a result of blind chance mutations. I know which I find more plausible.

    While both are most likely unproveable (or falsifiable) in the absolute sense, evolution has been backup up with experimentation, testing, and observations, which is why it is not merely a "theory", but a "scientific theory."

    When you read the language of the evolution proponents in their works you will not see "facts" at all. The experimentation, testing and observation are all involved with micro-evolution, which is adaptation. You cannot use adaptation, which are small changes in the appearance and behavior of species as a response to environmental changes, as proof that all life evolved from a simple cell.....that is a stretch by anyone's imagination. For this, NO "proof" is possible. Saying something "might have" or "could have" taken place is not a statement of fact but is "supposition"..."presumption"....."speculation"....this is what theory is.

    You are discussing both as if they are merely hypotheses, which is often the problem. If they were both theoretical, then what you are saying would be accurate according to the rules of logic. However, evolution is testable and observable, and has been for quite some time.

    Not true. What science has tested and observed is adaptation......they cannot test for organic evolution because no one was there to observe what happened. Finding a tooth or part of a skull and then claiming grandiose "truths" from this "evidence" is a joke. We then get into the realms of fantasy about what "might have" or "could have" happened. They then back their "supposition" with computer generated imagery and voila! the creature comes to life on the screen as magically as if we were watching footage of what actually happened. How easily people are persuaded when they need God to go away.

    Creationism, on the other hand, is not objectively testable or observable. It is merely a theory not based on evidence.

    The evidence is right under our own nose.....we don't need science to see that. Yet when science explains the complex nature of our internal workings, we are in awe. Every time you perform a complex task or read written language, or speak to other humans, or drink or eat food, you employ complex systems that do not require you to even think about them much. They go into action and you take them completely for granted.....yet each of them required complex activity in your body that are in complete harmony with signals from the brain.

    That is all due to just a series of fortunate accidents....? You can believe that if you like....

    In reality, a lot of people even try to claim that a lack of evidence or explanation from science somehow provides proof for the supernatural, when nothing could be further from the truth.

    How do you define "supernatural"? What if the "Creator" is an extra-terrestrial with extraordinary abilities? What if the "life" that scientists are trying to discover out there in space is actually "God"? What if this Creator is explainable as the originator of science itself?

    Just because humans have placed God in the realms of fairy tales, doesn't mean that he is. How humans have portrayed him over the centuries is a matter of their interpretation of the evidence...what if that interpretation is equally as faulty as how science paints him today?

    Any absence of explanation would merely be due to the fact that we haven't discovered the explanation YET.

    Which means that there is no "proof" that the macro-evolutionary theory is true. There is supposition and conjecture.....just as we who believe in intelligent design have. We each have a belief system....and that is a fact.

    There should never be a jump to the supernatural, as that is merely a "God of the gaps" argument, devoid of any merit.

    Devoid of any merit to whom? "Supernatural" may not mean what you think it does.

    Evolutionary science is merely the "religion" to which unbelievers subscribe.
    It is based on faith, not proof, just as our belief is.
 

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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
We already know what the designers are. It's been discovered through the field of biology, and is obvious how we came into this world. It's totally laughable to even think some invisible being is the one responsible when no basis is even there to begin to speculate there is one. Biology on the other hand is that basis.

Evoultion is not anywhere close to the bs by which faith is established, and anyone who thinks otherwise is off their rocker on the matter by which evolution is clearly established.

At least a few creationists understand the reality by which evolution is already proven and leaves the nuances by which we continue to study the scientific theory of evolution.

Some people are going to need to change their theology before it gets laughed out of the room.
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
"Well-substantiated" is a matter of interpreting the "evidence". If said "evidence" is misinterpreted because the "supposition" is skewed towards confirming a pre-conceived notion, then we have no "substantiation" at all. We have educated guesswork.

Okay, but. . .

The evidence is right under our own nose.....we don't need science to see that.

Didn't you just contradict yourself by making a "supposition skewed toward confirming a preconceived notion"?

The experimentation, testing and observation are all involved with micro-evolution, which is adaptation. You cannot use adaptation, which are small changes in the appearance and behavior of species as a response to environmental changes, as proof that all life evolved from a simple cell.....that is a stretch by anyone's imagination. For this, NO "proof" is possible. Saying something "might have" or "could have" taken place is not a statement of fact but is "supposition"..."presumption"....."speculation"....this is what theory is.

So let's speculate. . .

What if the "Creator" is an extra-terrestrial with extraordinary abilities? What if the "life" that scientists are trying to discover out there in space is actually "God"? What if this Creator is explainable as the originator of science itself?

Obviously, you have your system of beliefs, whatever they are. But the goal of scientists are to try and create a common language of things that can be verified. There is much that we don't know.

The fossil record can be doubted based on gaps I suppose, but I take issue that you assume that evolution is faith. The concepts and theories are always changing and self-correcting, If evidence is found to directly contradict the theory, then science will alter it as necessary to reflect our observations. Published scientific papers are full of qualifications regarding the limitations of the study they are reporting (they wouldn't be credible otherwise), but the goal is the same for science: Coming up with the best possible explanation, submitting any evidence that van be verified.

Science is a winding road that often winds back on itself, in search for truth. You were willing to raise a theory that God exists and he is an alien, with no evidence whatsoever. You decided to rearrange the entire intellectual domain to fit your perfectly straight, all-inclusive superhighway of an answer. Whether you were serious or not, that is not the goal of scientific inquiry. Theory does not come from nowhere, it comes from the observations of the natural world that we have.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
. . . Then Darwinian Evolution is untestable. If intelligent design is unfalsifiable, then Darwinian evolution is unprovable.


Why? Logic 101.

Horse puckey, here is a clear refutation of such foolishness from the National Center for Science Education:


Creationists sometimes say that the theory of evolution is untestable and thus unscientific. This is a surprising claim, since creationists also say that the theory of evolution is incompatible with the second law of thermodynamics. If evolution were precluded by the second law, then evidence that confirms the second law would disconfirm the theory of evolution. If the theory of evolution can be disconfirmed, then it is testable. Creationists cannot have it both ways.


What is the source, then, of their claim that the theory of evolution is untestable? Let us ignore, for the sake of consistency, the creationist claim that the second law is incompatible with the theory of evolution and examine the grounds for the thesis that evolution is untestable. In the final analysis, I think the creationists' arguments fail miserably.


However, a caveat is necessary before we proceed. Creationists are mistaken in their presupposition that the theory of evolution must be classified as either a theory or a fact. One of the many problems with that presupposition results from the sloppy use of the indefinite article a in the phrase a fact. Such usage treats the theory of evolution as if it consisted of a single proposition whose evidential status is all-of-a-kind and which must be accepted or rejected as a whole. But if anything is evident, it is that the theory of evolution consists of many propositions whose evidential status is not all-of-a-kind. Proving the untestability of the theory of evolution, then, would consist of the piecemeal task of considering each separate proposition individually and demonstrating that each is untestable. Furthermore, since research is currently being done in evolutionary theory, not all of the propositions are in, making the task even more difficult. We need, therefore, to beware of hasty talk about the untestability of the whole theory.


Survival of the Fittest

But perhaps there is a proposition (or small set of propositions) that is so basic to evolutionary theory that showing its untestability would, like Descartes' evil genius, undermine the edifice upon which the theory is built, obviating the need for a "piecemeal" approach.


This, evidently, is the presupposition underlying the attack on natural selection. The argument occurs early in Henry Morris' book, Scientific Creationism: "A theory which incorporates everything really explains nothing! It is tautologous. Those who survive in the struggle for existence are the fittest because the fittest are the ones who survive" (p. 7). Stephen Jay Gould (1983) formulates the argument quite well before refuting it:


Natural selection is defined by Spencer's phrase 'survival of the fittest,' but what does this famous bit of jargon really mean? Who are the fittest? And how is 'fitness' defined? We often read that fitness involves no more than 'differential reproductive success'—the production of more surviving offspring than competing members of the population. Whoa! . . . This formulation defines fitness in terms of survival only. The crucial phrase of natural selection means no more than 'the survival of those who survive'—a vacuous tautology. [pp. 141-142]


Does this argument prove the untestability of the theory of evolution? A prerequisite for doing so is to show that the theory of evolution is built upon the edifice of natural selection in such a way that, without natural selection, the theory of evolution itself would collapse. That, however, is far from clear and certainly does not go without saying.


In response to creationist Duane Gish's assertion that the theory of evolution is a tautology without predictive value on the basis of the argument just cited, Gould writes: "Please note, however, that the false claim for tautology was advanced only against Darwin's mechanism of natural selection, not against the idea of evolution itself" (p. 140). In response to the claim that natural selection was quietly abandoned by even its most ardent supporters, Gould quips: "News to me, and I, although I wear the Darwinian label with some pride, am not among the most ardent supporters of natural selection" (p. 141). These remarks, if anything, suggest that the theory of evolution is independent of natural selection.


R. C. Lewontin (1981), another authority on the theory of evolution, inveighs against ". . . the growth of a vulgar Darwinism that sees direct adaptation in every feature of life. By making claims for natural selection that are as tortured as the absurd claims of the nineteenth century evolutionists who saw God's wisdom in everything, the vulgar adaptationists seriously weaken [the perception of] the power of evolutionary explanation." Now if only "vulgar" Darwinists make extravagant claims for natural selection, and thereby undermine the perception of the power of evolutionary explanation, then there are other mechanisms that explain evolutionary change, and the theory of evolution very well might be independent of natural selection.


Lewontin does mention other factors that play a role in evolutionary explanation:


The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution. One such controversy concerns the relative importance of direct "adaptive" natural selection for characters, as opposed to other forces of evolution such as genetic drift, genetic linkage, pleiotrophy, allometry, and multiple adaptive peaks for particular events in evolution. [p. 559]


Two others might be mentioned: mutation and founder effect. Now if authorities cite many other factors involved in evolutionary change, debate the relative importance of natural selection, and suggest that the theory of evolution is independent of it, then creationists must first establish that the theory of evolution stands or falls with natural selection before their case can be made. But that issue is not even broached in their argument for evolution's circularity. Therefore, they have not proved the theory untestable.


A Criterion for "Fitness"

Nonetheless, they have made an important charge against natural selection itself: the charge of untestability. To answer this, it will be necessary to show that there is a criterion other than survival for something being the "fittest" or better adapted. Is there an independent criterion?


Gould tells us that there is. He says that the survival and spread of certain traits in individuals throughout populations is a result of the fitness (adaptability) of those traits, not a definition of fitness (p. 143). Certain traits are superior or better adapted before they survive and spread. I quote Gould:


Now, the key point: certain morphological, physiological, and behavioral traits should be superior a priori as designs for living in new environments. These traits confer fitness by an engineer's criterion of good design, not by the empirical fact of their survival and spread. [p. 143]


A trait is better adapted, then, if it meets an engineer's criterion of good design. Although the word design may prompt some to think of a popular argument for God's existence, the criterion Gould invokes is naturalistic. It is a matter of comparing an engineer's design of something with what one finds in nature. The better adapted or "fitter" organisms are those which would meet an engineer's criterion for good design if an engineer were to apply one. If one then predicts that organisms which meet an engineer's criterion would be those that survive and, in the long run, spread their traits throughout populations, then such a prediction in terms of natural selection is testable.


The criterion Gould cites is general and designed to cover all cases. But it is not clear how this criterion plays a role in evolutionary explanation. Let us turn, then, to a specific example in order to clarify the testable and contingent character of possible explanations in terms of natural selection.


The example I shall cite is one that the creationists deny is an instance of evolution "in the true sense." An evolutionary process is a change in gene frequency that, in the long run, results in the appearance of a new species. The example I shall cite is not one in which a new species appeared. Those changes take so long that it is impossible for an individual to point to one having occurred in his or her personal experience. But the creationists' denial that it is an instance of evolution "in the true sense" is irrelevant here, for the issue has to do with the testability of explanations in terms of natural selection. And the example I shall cite is undoubtedly an instance of natural selection.


My example is a standard one about the peppered moths in England. Before 1845, every observed moth of this kind was gray (at least every recorded observation). In 1845, however, a single black moth of that biological type was observed and recorded in Manchester, an industrialized area. Presumably, there were more black moths. Now the gray color of most of the moths was better adapted to their environment, since the moths tended to stay on trees that were covered with gray lichens. Thus, the gray color constituted a good camouflage against their predators (primarily birds). On the other hand, the darker moths were less well camouflaged and even tended to stand out against the background of the trees on which they lived. They were therefore less well adapted. Now, since the darker moths were easier for the birds to see, they would, as a group, more likely be eaten before they matured and reproduced. Since physical characteristics are inherited, it could, at this point, be predicted that, if the environment remained the same in the relevant respects, the black moths would constitute a smaller percentage of the population, whereas the gray ones would comprise a larger one. If you were to design a moth for living in such an environment, you would give it good camouflage against its predators. The gray moths in that environment meet the engineer's criterion of good design.


But the environment did not remain the same. Industrialization in England blackened the trees, making the gray moths more easily visible to their predators, whereas the black ones had thus become less easily visible. It could then be predicted that the percentage of black moths would increase, whereas the gray ones would decrease (Northington and Goodin, 1984). In this new environment, the dark moths meet the engineer's criterion of good design.


Now it is a logically contingent fact that the better camouflaged moths survive and, in the long run, spread their better-adapted characteristic throughout the population. I would not place my bet on the survival and spread (or even stability) of the black moths when the trees are gray, nor on the gray ones when the trees are black. However, it is not true by definition that the better-adapted (in this instance, better camouflaged) individuals will survive and spread. Their greater adaptation relative to environmental conditions is identifiable independently of and prior to their survival, as shown by the predictions those identifications license. If those predictions were disconfirmed by subsequent observations, that would be evidence against natural selection as an explanation of the evolutionary change. The possibility of such disconfirming evidence constitutes testability.


This example is not atypical. Basically, it is a matter of being able to identify those characteristics that, in a given environment, would be more likely to produce survival and spread. But survival, once again, is not a definition of adaptability but a probable result of it. Creationists have not, therefore, proven the untestability of explanations in terms of natural selection, much less the untestability of the theory of evolution.


One harmless concession should be made. Gould does note that some of the literature in evolutionary theory does involve the use of a circular criterion of fitness or adaptability (p. 143). Gould, and I think rightly, attributes this to an unwillingness among some scientists to "explore seriously the logical structure of arguments" (p. 141). Some scientists need, in short, to be more philosophical. But this does not mean that the theory of evolution or Darwin's formulation is untestable, since good explanations and predictions in terms of natural selection can be specified in a noncircular way, and frequently are.


Ehrlich and Birch

The argument I have refuted is not, however, the only argument for the untestability of the theory of evolution in Scientific Creationism. Consider this argument from page nine:


It is clear that neither evolution nor creation is, in the proper sense, either a scientific theory or a scientific hypothesis. Though people might speak of the "theory of evolution" or of the "theory of creation," such terminology is imprecise. This is because neither can be tested. A valid scientific hypothesis must be capable of being formulated experimentally, such that the experimental results either confirm or reject its validity.


As noted in the statement by Ehrlich and Birch cited previously, however, there is no conceivable way to do this.


The claim that the theory of evolution is untestable is based upon the assertion that evolution is not a valid scientific hypothesis that is capable of being formulated experimentally, such that the experimental results either confirm or reject its validity. Ehrlich and Birch's authority is cited as grounds for asserting this.


If one reads only the creationists' quotation from Ehrlich and Birch's article, one would think that Ehrlich and Birch believe that the theory of evolution as a whole is untestable. That impression, however, would be far from the truth, since the creationists have, by quoting Ehrlich and Birch out of context, distorted their views. This is the quotation in Scientific Creationism:


Our theory of evolution has become . . . one which cannot be refuted by any possible observations. It is thus "outside of empirical science," but not necessarily false. No one can think of ways in which to test it. . . . (Evolutionary ideas) have become part of an evolutionary dogma accepted by most of us as part of our training. [pp. 6-7]


The creationists did not cite the very next sentence: "The cure seems to us not to be a discarding of the modern synthesis of evolutionary theory, but more skepticism about many of its tenets" (Ehrlich and Birch, p. 352). If Ehrlich and Birch think that the theory of evolution as a whole is untestable, why do they say, in the very next sentence, that evolutionary theory should not be scrapped? The answer is that they do not regard the theory of evolution as a whole to be untestable, as even a cursory reading of the article shows. At the beginning of Ehrlich and Birch's article, offset and in boldface, is a good precis:


While accepting evolutionary theory, should ecologists be more skeptical about hypotheses derived solely from untestable assumptions about the past? The authors put forward the view that many ecologists underestimate the efficacy of natural selection and fail to distinguish between phylogenetic and ecological questions. [p. 349]


These two biologists are not at all dissatisfied with the theory of evolution as such.


They are dissatisfied, however, with how some scientists make use of some hypotheses about the evolutionary past. The article is about how some ecologists investigate matters poorly by turning too readily to untestable assumptions about the past to answer their questions rather than first turning to explanations that are falsifiable. Ehrlich and Birch write, for example:


It is clear that considerably more thorough investigations of the present day population biology of these birds, with the emphasis on the genetics of clutch size, magnitude of selection pressure on clutch size, and rates of gene flow, will be necessary before we fall back on an untestable historical hypothesis. [p. 350]


In brief, those ecologists who investigate poorly have used untestable historical hypotheses to circumvent the need for more empirical investigation, which is objectionable. [This is not to imply that historical hypotheses are automatically untestable; see the next article, page nine.]


Ehrlich and Birch also say that the tendency of some ecologists to turn too quickly to untestable historical hypotheses has been accompanied by a failure to address logically prior questions and confusions about what constitutes a proper scientific explanation (pp. 350-351).


What are these untestable historical hypotheses? They are very specific assertions about specific animals in specific locations. One example is about the ancestral habitat of the British great tit, Parus major. Another is about competition in the past between two species of birds on the Canary Islands, Fringella coelebs and Fringella coerulea (p. 350). The point is that these hypotheses are about specific details of evolutionary history. These hypotheses are quite peripheral. They are not fundamental propositions in the theory of evolution. They are not even relatively important to the theory as a whole but represent only some sloppy work on the part of some ecologists. The untestability of these speculations about very specific details, therefore, does not imply that fundamental or relatively important propositions of evolutionary theory are untestable. In fact, such propositions as "More complex lifeforms have developed out of simpler ones" and "Dinosaurs existed and became extinct long before modern humans came into existence" are testable. The evidence could disconfirm them, but it simply does not. No doubt Ehrlich and Birch recognize this, which is why they recommend that evolutionary theory be retained.


Furthermore, Ehrlich and Birch not only favor retaining evolutionary theory but also criticize their colleagues for failing to appreciate "the efficacy of natural selection." As I pointed out earlier, creationists believe that explanations in terms of natural selection are untestable. To say the least, it is not in their best interest to cite as authoritative such strong advocates of the explanatory power of natural selection.


Conclusion

We have examined two arguments in Scientific Creationism for the untestability of evolutionary theory. The first, concerning the alleged circularity of natural selection, rested upon an unproven presupposition and included the false premise that survival is the test of adaptability. The second involved an appeal to the authority of Ehrlich and Birch. Examining what they had to say, however, showed that their article did not advance the creationist's case. If the creationists believe that the theory of evolution stands of falls with a peripheral hypothesis about the great British tit, they must be guilty of a confusion to which I alluded at the beginning of this article—that of thinking of evolutionary theory as a single proposition whose evidential status is all-of-a-kind.


Furthermore, the evidence could have corroborated (but does not) the hypothesis that all lifeforms appeared at virtually the same time. As a result, it is not only true that creationists have failed to prove the untestability of the fundamental tenet of evolutionary theory, it is also true that the fundamental tenet is testable.


The same cannot be said of the fundamental axiom of creationism, that God wrote Genesis.


According to the Biblical record, God Himself wrote with His own hand these words: "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is. . . ." That being true, it follows that real understanding of man and his world can only be acquired in a thorough-going creationist frame of reference. [Morris, p. iii]


I should like to show the untestability of that creationist axiom and others. That, however, is a different topic.


References

Ehrlich, P. R., and Birch, L. C. April 22, 1967. "Evolutionary History and Population Biology." Nature, volume 214.


Gould, S. J. 1983. "Darwin's Untimely Burial—Again!" in L. R. Godfrey (editor), Scientists Confront Creationism. New York: W. W. Norton and Co.


Lewontin, R. C. September 1981. "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth." Bioscience, 31:8.


Morris, H. M. (editor). 1974. Scientific Creationism (general edition). San Diego: Creation-Life Publishers.


Northington, D. K., and Goodin, J. R. 1984. The Botanical World. St. Louis: Times Mirror/Mosby; pp. 408-409.


About the Author(s):

Professor Peter Hutcheson is in the Department of Philosophy
at Southwest Texas State University in San Marcos.
© 1986 by Peter Hutcheson

This version might differ slightly from the print publication.

They're opposing answers to the same question, thus, any test for one will inherently test the other.

Any evidence for one will be evidence against the other.

Any proof of one will be proof against the other. proving one will falsify the other (and vice versa).


When Darwinists say we can't falsify the claim that biology is a product of design, they're unwittingly confessing that they can't prove biology is the product of blind nature.


When Darwinists say we can't prove the claim that biology is a product of design, they're unwittingly confessing that they can't falsify the claim that biology is the product of blind nature.


The only reasonable conclusion is that either both are science, or neither is science.


Food for thought. I eagerly await your flimsy excuses.

No excuses needed since your entire premise is flawed. It is based on two logical fallacies: begging the question and false dichotomy. Talk about failing your basic logic course.

ImmortalFlame is first in line, and, as predicted, his post is less an argument than a flimsy excuse. He also seems emotional, so I can only assume I've hit a nerve.


Evolution was put forward in opposition to creationism; the latter preceded the former.


If I claim that intelligent design is the cause of gravity, and you demonstrate that anything other than intelligent design is the cause of gravity, then you will have falsified my claim.


You may not have demonstrated that invisible genies exist, but you have demonstrated that my claim -- that intelligent design is the cause of gravity -- is false, and you did so by proving your logically converse claim. You've disproved A by proving Not A.


Now, if that's still not sinking in, here's a better analogy to make sense of things.

  • You have a girlfriend.
  • Your girlfriend claims she's pregnant.
  • You don't believe she is pregnant.
  • You go to the store and buy a pregnancy test that is 100% accurate.
Question: Will this pregnancy test test for the presence of pregnancy (her claim), or the absence of pregnancy (your claim)?


Answer: Both. You cannot test for the presence of pregnancy without also testing for the absence of pregnancy. The test will not only prove one, it will inherently disprove (falsify) the other.

The analogy fails for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that you are positing a binary choice where that is not really the case, that’s the false dicotomy (even in the analogy it is not the case since pregnancy is not the relevant question since more than 70% of pregnancies will result in a spontaneous abortion) .

Now, let's rephrase the Darwin vs. Design question to more closely fit the above analogy.

  • Darwinists claim there is no design in biology.
  • I.D. proponents claim there is design in biology.
  • Scientist runs a test which tests for Darwinism (the absence of design in biology).
Question: Will the scientist's test test for the presence of design (I.D.'s claim), or the absence of design (Darwinists' claim)?


Answer: Both. You cannot test for the presence of design without also testing for the absence of design. The test, assuming it's successful, will not only strengthen one position. it will inherently weaken the other.


Any test which addresses the question of whether or not there is design in biology will inherently affect both sides of the Darwin vs. Design debate.
Complete foolishness, there are a myriad of specious explanations to compete with ID or Christian creationism … falsifying natural selection does not strengthen one of them any more than another. Similarly the falsification of ID does not lend credence to Dawinsim over Chambers, Lamarck, etc.

Note that this flawless reasoning works equally well on the origin of life.

As we have seen your “reasoning” is far from flawless.

Every single time an origin of life researcher attempts to demonstrate abiogenesis, he's simultaneously attempting to falsify intelligent design. Thus, Intelligent Design is one of the most tested ideas in science. That it's not yet been falsified doesn't mean it's unfalsifiable, it just means that the abiogenesis position is weak and almost certainly false. Remember: You can't falsify truth, not even with lies and shoddy court room rulings.

The mythological and supernatural are, in the end, not amenable to scientific analysis and falsification in a conventional sense, although the ludicrousness of the construct is obvious.

The term proof in science doesn't refer to 100% mathematical certainty, but to statements which are (provisionally) true beyond a reasonable doubt.

The term “proof” is not used in science, that’s a mathematical term.

I have confidence that the reasonable, intelligent members of this forum can see which of us best understands logic and science.
C:\Users\Phil\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif

As a reasonable and intelligent member of this forum I can state, unequivocally, that you have not the least of idea of what your are talking about.

Actually, I may have to agree with you here. I should've used the term blind watchmaker evolution, rather than Darwinian evolution, to create a more all-encompassing dichotomy.
As usual a false dichotomy that fails to take into account natural selection.

With that said, typically anything in biology which is deemed ateleological becomes an ad hoc extension of Darwinian evolution, so it's little more than a petty semantics issue.


Further, the claim is that blind watchmaker Darwinian evolution is demonstrably true, which still makes the adjoining claim that watchmaker evolution (intelligent design) is unfalsifiable an illogical statement.


  • If blind watchmaker evolution is testable, then watchmaker evolution is testable.
  • If blind watchmaker evolution is demonstrable, then watchmaker evolution is falsifiable.
Watchmaker evolution being intelligent design, and blind watchmaker evolution being any variation of evolution which is said to be lacking in intelligent direction -- most notably Darwinian evolution.


Better?

Again your logic isn’t suffering from begging the question and false dichotomy … as usual.

It's Richard Dawkins' term, not mine, so if you don't like it, blame him, not me. Personally, I think it's a good term which creates a clear distinction in the debate.


Watchmaker Evolution: Any variation of evolution which posits that a directing intelligence is responsible for the history of life's development.


Blind Watchmaker Evolution: Any variation of evolution which posits that life's development is the result of blind, non-intentional mechanisms and/or forces (random mutations, etc.).

Neither takes into account natural selection, so ... as usual, false dichotomy.

That the foundation of all life on Earth is a literal programming language, for starters.

The “programming language” argument is naught but a way to serve up intellectually empty word salad.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
theory
ˈθɪəri/
noun
  1. a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
    "Darwin's theory of evolution"
    synonyms: hypothesis, thesis, conjecture, supposition, speculation, postulation, postulate, proposition,premise, surmise, assumption, presumption, presupposition, notion, guess, hunch, feeling, suspicion;



    "Well-substantiated" is a matter of interpreting the "evidence". If said "evidence" is misinterpreted because the "supposition" is skewed towards confirming a pre-conceived notion, then we have no "substantiation" at all. We have educated guesswork.



    When we see evidence of processes in biology and in the natural bio-systems on this planet that exhibit brilliant design, our own logic has to steer us towards a brilliant designer. What complex instrument or tool that we use in our profession, that is brilliantly designed, does not give credit to its designer?

    Your computer had a designer and maker.....the components in that computer are each separately and carefully designed and manufactured to work in conjunction with each other, and then they are assembled in the right order. Any mistake would lead to a non-functioning piece of useless technology.

    Without electricity, it would also be completely useless. Without the Internet, it would not connect to the rest of the world and its usefulness would be limited. Without someone to program the computer to perform its tasks, again it would be useless. Each of those things came into existence by design....very intelligent design.....and yet, science tells us that the computer that exists in our head didn't require a designer or maker at all....it just happened as a result of blind chance mutations. I know which I find more plausible.



    When you read the language of the evolution proponents in their works you will not see "facts" at all. The experimentation, testing and observation are all involved with micro-evolution, which is adaptation. You cannot use adaptation, which are small changes in the appearance and behavior of species as a response to environmental changes, as proof that all life evolved from a simple cell.....that is a stretch by anyone's imagination. For this, NO "proof" is possible. Saying something "might have" or "could have" taken place is not a statement of fact but is "supposition"..."presumption"....."speculation"....this is what theory is.



    Not true. What science has tested and observed is adaptation......they cannot test for organic evolution because no one was there to observe what happened. Finding a tooth or part of a skull and then claiming grandiose "truths" from this "evidence" is a joke. We then get into the realms of fantasy about what "might have" or "could have" happened. They then back their "supposition" with computer generated imagery and voila! the creature comes to life on the screen as magically as if we were watching footage of what actually happened. How easily people are persuaded when they need God to go away.



    The evidence is right under our own nose.....we don't need science to see that. Yet when science explains the complex nature of our internal workings, we are in awe. Every time you perform a complex task or read written language, or speak to other humans, or drink or eat food, you employ complex systems that do not require you to even think about them much. They go into action and you take them completely for granted.....yet each of them required complex activity in your body that are in complete harmony with signals from the brain.

    That is all due to just a series of fortunate accidents....? You can believe that if you like....



    How do you define "supernatural"? What if the "Creator" is an extra-terrestrial with extraordinary abilities? What if the "life" that scientists are trying to discover out there in space is actually "God"? What if this Creator is explainable as the originator of science itself?

    Just because humans have placed God in the realms of fairy tales, doesn't mean that he is. How humans have portrayed him over the centuries is a matter of their interpretation of the evidence...what if that interpretation is equally as faulty as how science paints him today?



    Which means that there is no "proof" that the macro-evolutionary theory is true. There is supposition and conjecture.....just as we who believe in intelligent design have. We each have a belief system....and that is a fact.



    Devoid of any merit to whom? "Supernatural" may not mean what you think it does.

    Evolutionary science is merely the "religion" to which unbelievers subscribe.
    It is based on faith, not proof, just as our belief is.
Maybe you missed what I wrote before, but you defined the term "theory" rather than the term "scientific theory", which is vastly different and has an enormously higher threshold. Maybe the below definition will help you understand this stark difference, often misunderstood by those who equate it with mere ideas. The common usage of the term "theory," which you kindly defined above, is equivalent to "hypothesis" as it represents ideas that have not been tested through experimentation and observation. And, FYI, most Christians believe that evolution is sound science.

"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation. This is opposed to hypotheses or untested/unfalsifiable claims that provide explanations, but have not been tested and observed through experimentation."

Creationism = Hypothesis ("theory" in common language)
Evolution = "scientific theory" (well-substantiated & tested to be accurate through experimentation/observation)

Creationism is not falsifiable, observable, or testable through experimentation. Thus, it (currently) cannot be said to be a "scientific theory," like evolution. Evolution, on the other hand, has been tested and observed through experimentation, and has been used even to make predictions about future fossil finds. So, unless I am missing something, you are confused as to the vast difference between a "scientific theory" and a "hypothesis" (or a "theory" in common language).

Now, you cannot argue that a mere "theory" can be equal to a "scientific theory", right? Keep in mind that the word "scientific" is merely an indication that the theory it describes has been tested to be true through repeated experimentation and observation.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Maybe you missed what I wrote before, but you defined the term "theory" rather than the term "scientific theory", which is vastly different and has an enormously higher threshold. Maybe the below definition will help you understand this stark difference, often misunderstood by those who equate it with mere ideas. The common usage of the term "theory," which you kindly defined above, is equivalent to "hypothesis" as it represents ideas that have not been tested through experimentation and observation. And, FYI, most Christians believe that evolution is sound science.

So when we add the word "scientific" to the word "theory" it magically changes the meaning? o_O

"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation. This is opposed to hypotheses or untested/unfalsifiable claims that provide explanations, but have not been tested and observed through experimentation."

I have read many works offered by evolutionists who state that they have "scientific" evidence that "proves" that their claims are true. The language is always the same. "Might have" and "could have" are not statements of scientific fact. When a scientist says "I think".....that is not fact either. Read what they actually say.

Creationism is not falsifiable, observable, or testable through experimentation. Thus, it (currently) cannot be said to be a "scientific theory," like evolution. Evolution, on the other hand, has been tested and observed through experimentation, and has been used even to make predictions about future fossil finds. So, unless I am missing something, you are confused as to the vast difference between a "scientific theory" and a "hypothesis" (or a "theory" in common language).

I am not confused at all...neither am I dazzled by the credentials or the language of those who interpret "evidence" to suit their own "theory". Read what they actually write and see the words used for their supposition. There is no concrete evidence for a theory. The fact that it is still called a theory, regardless of the prefix, is telling us all that nothing is proven.
They just want you to believe that there is.

Now, you cannot argue that a mere "theory" can be equal to a "scientific theory", right?

LOL....now this is funny. Am I really supposed to change the definition of a word in my own mind because the word "scientific" is used before it? If I saw actual "proof", then perhaps I would.

So now, by applying peer pressure to infer that it is unintelligent to believe that intelligence directed the process of creation, I am made to feel unintelligent myself....? That works for some...but not all.

I am, at this moment listening to a scientist recounting the amazing ability of the common house-fly. In one breath he says that the fly's anatomical structure is "amazingly engineered" and then in the next breath he says it evolved. Now the last time I looked at anything "engineered", it required someone with a university degree to design or "engineer" it.

The role of the various species of flies is vital to our ecology. Without flies, we would be drowning in biological waste.
Yet this creature has the mental capacity of a toaster. Did someone design a toaster? Why not the house-fly?

If the garbage collectors do not collect waste in the city where you live, what environment would you expect to live in?
Did the garbage collectors evolve? Or were they intelligently employed to do that job so that health is preserved for the majority of us? Do the collectors themselves need a university education to do their job?

Keep in mind that the word "scientific" is merely an indication that the theory it describes has been tested to be true through repeated experimentation and observation.

What is "tested" is adaptation....NOT organic evolution. You cannot use one to prove the other....though science wants us to believe it does.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Okay, but. . .

Didn't you just contradict yourself by making a "supposition skewed toward confirming a preconceived notion"?

It has always been my position that neither side has "proof" for their claims. That is the whole point of any exchange between these two "camps" (though I believe there are three)

If evolution can use speculation and supposition, why can't we?

Obviously, you have your system of beliefs, whatever they are. But the goal of scientists are to try and create a common language of things that can be verified. There is much that we don't know.

The fossil record can be doubted based on gaps I suppose, but I take issue that you assume that evolution is faith. The concepts and theories are always changing and self-correcting, If evidence is found to directly contradict the theory, then science will alter it as necessary to reflect our observations. Published scientific papers are full of qualifications regarding the limitations of the study they are reporting (they wouldn't be credible otherwise), but the goal is the same for science: Coming up with the best possible explanation, submitting any evidence that van be verified.

And again that is the point.....if you have no absolute proof, then stop claiming that you have.
By all means teach your theory, as an alternative but allow the other theories equal time and space.
It's the arrogance of science to claim that something that is still a theory is taught as absolute fact, when it isn't. It is presumed to be fact. I presume theta the Bible's explanation is fact....who is to adjudicate about who is correct?

Science is a winding road that often winds back on itself, in search for truth.

Someone who is "searching" has not found what they are searching for.....correct? Why not just admit that?

You were willing to raise a theory that God exists and he is an alien, with no evidence whatsoever. You decided to rearrange the entire intellectual domain to fit your perfectly straight, all-inclusive superhighway of an answer. Whether you were serious or not, that is not the goal of scientific inquiry. Theory does not come from nowhere, it comes from the observations of the natural world that we have.

And the idea of an intelligent designer for all the complex and intricate systems that operate on this planet and within living organisms, is not removed from our experience either. Nothing we have in our life that is designed for a specific task we undertake, lacks a designer and manufacturer. That is what we know to be true. Yet science wants us to abandon this simple truth for their theorising that is unproven. Have you ever asked why?

What I was suggesting is, that what science has been searching for in the far reaches of outer space....intelligent life, may well be the very thing they reject as fantasy because it doesn't fit their own definition of how life began on earth.
Just because humans have created fantasy beliefs about god(s) doesn't mean that he doesn't exist in a form that is simply not within the realms of human experience to define.
Do you understand what I am saying?

To concentrate so hard on how life changed, whilst completely ignoring how life began is ridiculous. If the answer to the big question is "God", (an indescribable intelligent designer with capacity to create life and indeed the universe itself) then the whole theory collapses.
 
Last edited:

Sapiens

Polymathematician
So when we add the word "scientific" to the word "theory" it magically changes the meaning? o_O
Doesn't take magic.
I have read many works offered by evolutionists who state that they have "scientific" evidence that "proves" that their claims are true. The language is always the same. "Might have" and "could have" are not statements of scientific fact. When a scientist says "I think".....that is not fact either. Read what they actually say.
Science does not "prove," there is no way to prove in terms of absolutes, so we do not use that sort of language.
I am not confused at all...neither am I dazzled by the credentials or the language of those who interpret "evidence" to suit their own "theory". Read what they actually write and see the words used for their supposition. There is no concrete evidence for a theory. The fact that it is still called a theory, regardless of the prefix, is telling us all that nothing is proven.
They just want you to believe that there is.
You can make up whatever you want to believe, that does not make it so. What you have decided to believe flies in the face of all of modern science.
LOL....now this is funny. Am I really supposed to change the definition of a word in my own mind because the word "scientific" is used before it? If I saw actual "proof", then perhaps I would.
Yes, you should use the definitions of words that the people were using when they spoke or wrote the words, else you're just making it up as you go. The proof is all around you, you are just blind as the proverbial bat (they are no really blind).
So now, by applying peer pressure to infer that it is unintelligent to believe that intelligence directed the process of creation, I am made to feel unintelligent myself....? That works for some...but not all.
Despite your self proclaimed lack of intelligence you seem to have gotten that one right.
I am, at this moment listening to a scientist recounting the amazing ability of the common house-fly. In one breath he says that the fly's anatomical structure is "amazingly engineered" and then in the next breath he says it evolved. Now the last time I looked at anything "engineered", it required someone with a university degree to design or "engineer" it.
That's what's know as quote mining, the last refuge of the creationist fools.
The role of the various species of flies is vital to our ecology. Without flies, we would be drowning in biological waste.
Yet this creature has the mental capacity of a toaster. Did someone design a toaster? Why not the house-fly?
Did someone design your non sequitur or did it just pop into your head? There is even more waste in the seas, but there are no flies, so what happened there? Natural selection combined with an available resource to evolve highly capable organisms like shrimp.
If the garbage collectors do not collect waste in the city where you live, what environment would you expect to live in?
Did the garbage collectors evolve? Or were they intelligently employed to do that job so that health is preserved for the majority of us? Do the collectors themselves need a university education to do their job?
Clearly you evolve your non sequiturs all on your own.
What is "tested" is adaptation....NOT organic evolution. You cannot use one to prove the other....though science wants us to believe it does.
Adaptation and evolution are exactly the same thing.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
It has always been my position that neither side has "proof" for their claims. That is the whole point of any exchange between these two "camps" (though I believe there are three)
Science never claims "proof" that's not how science works. Creationism claims proof and never has it, that's how religion works. Now is the difference clear to you?
If evolution can use speculation and supposition, why can't we?
Because science does not do that, but creationism does.
And again that is the point.....if you have no absolute proof, then stop claiming that you have.
Again, science does not make that claim.
By all means teach your theory, as an alternative but allow the other theories equal time and space.
Any theory that can demonstrate equal likelihood to natural selection, without falsification, should be taught ... but there is none that does.
It's the arrogance of science to claim that something that is still a theory is taught as absolute fact, when it isn't.
No, the arrogance is entirely yours, you misuse a definition and set up a strawman, even when you are corrected you go blithely on with what you have transmogrified from your lack of understanding into a blatant lie ... now that's arrogance for you.
It is presumed to be fact. I presume theta the Bible's explanation is fact....who is to adjudicate about who is correct?
The fallacies in your construct are easily demonstrated, your attempts to falsify the science always required descent into logical fallacies.
Someone who is "searching" has not found what they are searching for.....correct? Why not just admit that?
Someone who claims to have found it all is an idiot with no understanding of the real questions.
And the idea of an intelligent designer for all the complex and intricate systems that operate on this planet and within living organisms, is not removed from our experience either.
The "designer" if you must call it that is simple, excess production of organisms winnowed by natural selection. Farmers do that with crops and animals just the same way that nature (if you must anthropomorphize) does.
Nothing we have in our life that is designed for a specific task we undertake, lacks a designer and manufacturer. That is what we know to be true. Yet science wants us to abandon this simple truth for their theorising that is unproven. Have you ever asked why?
You are simple, but you are not truthful ... evolution has been demonstrated, creationism has not. Evolution survives all attempts at falsification, creationism does not.
What I was suggesting is, that what science has been searching for in the far teaches of outer space....intelligent life, may well be the very thing they reject as fantasy because it doesn't fit their own definition of how life began on earth.
Intelligent life elsewhere in the universe would just help to demonstrate what science already advocates.
Just because humans have created fantasy beliefs about god(s) doesn't mean that he doesn't exist in a form that is simply not within the realms of human experience to define.
No, it doesn't ... but you have to admit that all that is "recorded" about what god(s) do/have done is rather easily falsified.
Do you understand what I am saying?
Yes, I understand it completely and it is just so much foolishnes,
To concentrate so hard on how life changed, whilst completely ignoring how life began is ridiculous. If the answer to the big question is "God", (an indescribable intelligent designer with capacity to create life and indeed the universe itself) then the whole theory collapses.
We know how life changed and changes, we do not know how life began, and because of the time that has passed and the complexity of the question I rather doubt that we ever will. I have no doubt that we will "create" life in the lab (in fact some feel we already have) ... but even that will not definitively speak to how our linage began, it will just illustrate that it was possible.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
ImmortalFlame is first in line, and, as predicted, his post is less an argument than a flimsy excuse. He also seems emotional, so I can only assume I've hit a nerve.
I was nothing but factual.

Evolution was put forward in opposition to creationism; the latter preceded the former.
You're wrong on both counts. Theism preceded evolution, certainly, but theism is not the same thing as creationism, and evolution was not "put forward in opposition to theism", it was the proposed explanation that came from the available evidence, competing with other hypotheses for the origin of species. Creationism, meanwhile, is a comparatively recent theistic movement which attempts to assert theistic creation as a scientific alternative (or replacement) for evolution. A theist can still accept evolution, but a creationist is specifically someone who rejects evolution (or, at least, part of evolution) in favour of a more literal interpretation from the creation story of their religious doctrine (usually of the Christian or Muslim faith).

If I claim that intelligent design is the cause of gravity, and you demonstrate that anything other than intelligent design is the cause of gravity, then you will have falsified my claim.
That depends entirely on your claim. If, for example, you say "I believe God is responsible for the creation of life", the theory of evolution doesn't contradict that. Even if evolution is responsible for the formation of all the living species, it can still be argued that a God set evolution in motion, created the original form of life, or is responsible for deliberately setting up the conditions required for life to occur. If, however, you say "God is responsible for the creation of life, and all forms of life appeared spontaneously, as they are, and did not evolve to become as they are", now you suddenly have a claim that can be falsified, because you have made a specific claim about the manner in which God created life and how life appeared on the planet that should actually show some demonstrative evidence.

The theory of evolution falsifies a lot of theistic interpretations of creation, but it doesn't falsify the concept of creation itself.

Now, if that's still not sinking in, here's a better analogy to make sense of things.
  • You have a girlfriend.
  • Your girlfriend claims she's pregnant.
  • You don't believe she is pregnant.
  • You go to the store and buy a pregnancy test that is 100% accurate.
Question: Will this pregnancy test test for the presence of pregnancy (her claim), or the absence of pregnancy (your claim)?

Answer: Both. You cannot test for the presence of pregnancy without also testing for the absence of pregnancy. The test will not only prove one, it will inherently disprove (falsify) the other.
This isn't even a close analogy. Evolution is not the proposition that "God didn't create life", evolution proposes a specific way in which life changed over time naturally. If you believe in a God, such a proposition should not be in opposition to your position unless you have a very specific interpretation of how that God created life. Demonstrating evolution (which has already been done) does not falsify the concept of theistic creation - although it does falsify very specific claims made by creationists, such as all life emerging as it is, simultaneously.

Now, let's rephrase the Darwin vs. Design question to more closely fit the above analogy.
  • Darwinists claim there is no design in biology.
Wrong. Many people who accept evolution are theists, including many leading scientists. Evolution says nothing about "design", it only proposes a means by which life diversifies naturally. Note that "naturally" doesn't mean "definitely no God involved in any aspect of". It simply means "in way that is consistent with the natural laws that we observe around us".

  • I.D. proponents claim there is design in biology.
  • Scientist runs a test which tests for Darwinism (the absence of design in biology).
Question: Will the scientist's test test for the presence of design (I.D.'s claim), or the absence of design (Darwinists' claim)?

Answer: Both. You cannot test for the presence of design without also testing for the absence of design. The test, assuming it's successful, will not only strengthen one position. it will inherently weaken the other.
Since I have already explained that evolution isn't the antithesis of theism, the rest of your argument is moot.

Note that this flawless reasoning works equally well on the origin of life.
If you feel the need to call your reasoning "flawless", it probably isn't.

Every single time an origin of life researcher attempts to demonstrate abiogenesis, he's simultaneously attempting to falsify intelligent design. Thus, Intelligent Design is one of the most tested ideas in science. That it's not yet been falsified doesn't mean it's unfalsifiable, it just means that the abiogenesis position is weak and almost certainly false. Remember: You can't falsify truth, not even with lies and shoddy court room rulings.
Your argument here is basically "If you can't test something, or haven't demonstrated it to be false yet, then any other potential explanation must be weak". Does this logic apply to my "intelligent falling" argument? Every time people have tested gravity, they are testing my "intelligent falling" theory - and since nobody has yet falsified my theory or proven that no genies exist, that must mean that the theory of gravity is weak and almost certainly false.

The term proof in science doesn't refer to 100% mathematical certainty, but to statements which are (provisionally) true beyond a reasonable doubt.
Wrong:

Common misconceptions about science I: “Scientific proof” | Psychology Today
There is no proof in science, but there are mountains of evidence | Grist
Where's the proof in science? There is none

There are no statements or facts in science which can demonstrate the truth of a given hypothesis or theory on their own beyond a reasonable doubt. Your own statement belies your understanding of the concept of proof, as something cannot count as genuine "proof" of something, but only provisionally. That makes no sense. It's like saying "I have definite proof the defendant killed the victim, but it might be wrong". If it's definite proof, then it can't even potentially be wrong. This is why the term is never used in science. The word you want to use is "evidence".

I have confidence that the reasonable, intelligent members of this forum can see which of us best understands logic and science. :)
I'd love to see what you call the "reasonable, intelligent members of this forum" when they tell you that it's me. Or, let me guess, are the only people on this forum who are "reasonable and intelligent" to you the ones who already agree with you?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
So when we add the word "scientific" to the word "theory" it magically changes the meaning? o_O



I have read many works offered by evolutionists who state that they have "scientific" evidence that "proves" that their claims are true. The language is always the same. "Might have" and "could have" are not statements of scientific fact. When a scientist says "I think".....that is not fact either. Read what they actually say.



I am not confused at all...neither am I dazzled by the credentials or the language of those who interpret "evidence" to suit their own "theory". Read what they actually write and see the words used for their supposition. There is no concrete evidence for a theory. The fact that it is still called a theory, regardless of the prefix, is telling us all that nothing is proven.
They just want you to believe that there is.



LOL....now this is funny. Am I really supposed to change the definition of a word in my own mind because the word "scientific" is used before it? If I saw actual "proof", then perhaps I would.

So now, by applying peer pressure to infer that it is unintelligent to believe that intelligence directed the process of creation, I am made to feel unintelligent myself....? That works for some...but not all.

I am, at this moment listening to a scientist recounting the amazing ability of the common house-fly. In one breath he says that the fly's anatomical structure is "amazingly engineered" and then in the next breath he says it evolved. Now the last time I looked at anything "engineered", it required someone with a university degree to design or "engineer" it.

The role of the various species of flies is vital to our ecology. Without flies, we would be drowning in biological waste.
Yet this creature has the mental capacity of a toaster. Did someone design a toaster? Why not the house-fly?

If the garbage collectors do not collect waste in the city where you live, what environment would you expect to live in?
Did the garbage collectors evolve? Or were they intelligently employed to do that job so that health is preserved for the majority of us? Do the collectors themselves need a university education to do their job?



What is "tested" is adaptation....NOT organic evolution. You cannot use one to prove the other....though science wants us to
So when we add the word "scientific" to the word "theory" it magically changes the meaning?
that is exactly what I'm saying actually. it's hard to believe that you can't think of many terms where the first word of that term specifies and changes the meaning of the term from the definition of the root word. you actually use one of these terms in your last comment. the term was organic evolution, which as you imply refers to more than evolution in general.

by the term scientific theory, a series that is based on the scientific method of experimentation and observations is being referred to. The same cannot be said for creationism, as it is not based on observable experimentation apart from theoretical concepts. This makes scientific theories, demanding repeated testing through experimentation and observation, more substantial than theoretical hypotheses without any observable data to back them up. That is what you seem to be discounting.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Were you home schooled in logic? Just curious.
I was going to ask if he had any schooling at all. In any case, I rather enjoy silly from time to time.

If X then Y
X then Y
If the earth isn't flat then the earth isn't a sphere
The earth isn't flat therefore the earth isn't a sphere
Logic .101000000

WHY?
"They're opposing answers to the same question, thus, any test for one will inherently test the other."
 
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