Harsh Truth: If Intelligent Design is Untestable . . .

[Bunyip]

You are talking about a contained environment radioactive decaying or a calculator, sure you could do that, but when you’re talking about those found in situ almost all of them are contaminated so it all now depends on when the radioactive isotopes or radioisotopes starts the “clock” on which no one can ever pinpoint the exact time or when the “clock” started.

IOW, in theory all they have are age assignments or estimates based on their skewed millions of years doctrines and not on standard studies.

No, I am talking about in nature also. Radioactive dating is astonishingly accurate, you should stop , lying about it.

 

[JM2C]

Huh? Things don't become more orderly and complex as we age. Things break down as we age...

Entropy -Entropy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exactly! But your premises suggested differently, i.e., from molecule to man is a process of order and complexity means less or decrease entropy or the absence of it. IOW, it opposed decaying. So, if you are saying “things break down as we age” meaning life does not continue as one age, but your premise from a non-life molecule to man totally contradicts this, doesn’t it?

 

[JM2C]

No. The foundation of life has nothing to do with us. We are but one means in how life expresses itself. There are literally billions of other ways in which life expresses itself. For example, how alive would you and I be without plants? Short answer, we would all be dead. But life would not end just because there were no humans or land-animals, right?

And yes, I have thought about it... Don't make assumptions about people you don't know.

It does not matter what kind of life we are talking about here. The question is, when or how did life begin? Your answer is, from molecule to man, therefore, from molecule to man is a process of order and complexity meaning less or decrease entropy or the absence of it, but you said “Things don’t become more orderly and complex as we age. Things break down as we age…”

 

[JM2C]

Perfect example! Although I never said that a human being came from a single dead cell...

A molecule is dead or non-living matter or inorganic therefore matter is not conscious, right? If matter is not conscious then it has no information, but according to you molecules became more complex molecules and became polymer, and this polymer became more complex and became man. Now, tell me, is this transition from a dead molecule to man is a type of order and complexity or a disorder and chaos?

 

[JM2C]

You today came from two single living cells when your parent's did the horizontal mombo, right? That's not magic - it's just gestation...

Also, ask yourself this, are the cells that make up your body today the same cells you have when you were born, or are they all reproductions of that long-dead cells from the beginning of your conception? There are billions and billions of things alive in you and on you that will exist and continue to live well after you die. JM2C will be long dead before the cells that exist all throughout your body get recycled back into the system of Planet Earth.

Living cells did not come from a dead cell. When a man dies or animals or plants they decompose and turn to dust. All living things will turn back to dust. “For you are dust, And to dust you shall return. –Genesis 3:19”

Some of the fossils that paleontologists found were fossilized bones and not the actual bones, except for the T-rex found by Dr. Horner, they actually found the bone, a femur with bone marrow in it, which is dateable by 14C.

Fossilized bones don’t have any living cells in it anymore. Any living cells in a fossilized bone were replaced by minerals and that was reason why it can’t be dated by Carbon14 or any dating method.

Fossilized bones are considered inorganic therefore cannot be dated by 14C or any dating method, unlike bones not fossilized yet are still dateable by 14C. I hope you are getting the picture here.

You said it yourself: “There are billions and billions of things alive in you and on you that will exist and continue to live well after you die.” I agree with you.

So, if living cells are still alive after we die, that is before it fully decomposed or fully fossilized and turned into minerals, then there is a chance to date it by 14C dating method, right?

 

[JM2C]

A single dead cell reproduced itself into multiple single living cells before it died, didn't it? Just like your children will live well past your death, so too do individual cells have offspring which live well past their parent's deaths.

No branch of science can testify that “a single dead cell reproduce itself into multiple single living cells”. It’s against the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

 

[JM2C]

No, it's not...
The wood that become that dummy started as a single seed before spending 15-30 years growing in a forest. Then it was cut down, harvested, chopped into rails, sold at a lumber yard, taken by a craftsman, sawed to size, and then hammered and sanded into a puppet... The cells that exist in and on that puppet started as incredibly simple microscopic "things" falling randomly somewhere in the woods a long time ago. You're no different.

"What is the difference then between a stick, which is dead, and an orchid which is alive? The difference is that the orchid has teleonomy in it. It is a machine which is capturing energy to increase order. Where you have life, you have teleonomy, and then the Sun's energy can be taken and make the thing grow - increasing its order" [temporarily].13

teleonomy:Information stored within a living thing. Teleonomy involves the concept of something having a design and purpose. Non-teleonomy [dead wood] is “directionlessness,” having no project. The teleonomy of a living thing is somehow stored within its genes. Teleonomy can use energy and matter to produce order and complexity.14

Where did the teleonomy of living things originate? It is important to note that the teleonomy (the ordering principle, the know-how) does not reside in matter itself. Matter, itself, is not creative.Dr. Wilder-Smith:

I hope you get the picture here.

 

[JM2C]

No. All things die. Humanity will die. This planet will die. Our sun will die. This solar system will die. The Milky Way Galaxy will die. The entire Universe even, will die.

Entropy.

Orderly and complexity is less or decrease entropy or no entropy at all.

 

[JM2C]

For all we know this Universe is a closed system. Until we get better data, all we know is that this Universe exists alone. Thus, all matter and energy contained within this Universe is all there is. Because of that, because nothing can come in or go out, this Universe is destined to die a long and slow heat death.

As far as right conditions, it does't take too much once a planetary system has formed for the process of coalescence into abiogenetic life to take over. Gravity and matter are all you need for solar systems. A few organic compounds, which are formed in the bellies of collapsing stars are all that is needed for life to form on those planets... The early atmosphere of Earth was a strange mixture of Methane, Ammonia, some Oxygen, and just incredible amounts of Carbon Dioxide. (Just look at Venus...) From that early soup, life as we know it would not do very well. But, thankfully, life as we know it isn't what formed in that nasty mix. It started with a few amino acids (proteins) and then replicated itself in all sorts of weird ways, including producing Adenine, which is one of the bases of RNA. A few lucky breaks later we had Cytosine, Guanine, and Uracil, forming a complete RNA strand. From there, the rest is history... You are alive because some stuff that was not alive was able to bond chemically in a nasty soup of death. Simple mono-cellular organisms eventually produced multi-celled organisms which eventually produced more and more multi-celled organisms until your parents were born.

That's it. It's simple. It's dirty. It's elegant. It's beautiful and it's how you and I came to be.

Are you saying that earth, where life is abundant, is a closed system?

 

[JM2C]

I didn't say she was. You stated something about the "Iron Lady". I don't know who that was. I already linked you to an article where Dr. Mary Schweitzer actually rebuttals the creationists claims of her work. Even your source material says your wrong.

I did not say you did, did I? Wrong about what?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

"What is the difference then between a stick, which is dead, and an orchid which is alive? The difference is that the orchid has teleonomy in it. It is a machine which is capturing energy to increase order. Where you have life, you have teleonomy, and then the Sun's energy can be taken and make the thing grow - increasing its order" [temporarily].13

teleonomy:Information stored within a living thing. Teleonomy involves the concept of something having a design and purpose. Non-teleonomy [dead wood] is “directionlessness,” having no project. The teleonomy of a living thing is somehow stored within its genes. Teleonomy can use energy and matter to produce order and complexity.14

Where did the teleonomy of living things originate? It is important to note that the teleonomy (the ordering principle, the know-how) does not reside in matter itself. Matter, itself, is not creative.Dr. Wilder-Smith:

I hope you get the picture here.

I certainly get the picture: it's circular reasoning. Teleonomy isn't a tangible facet of an object - it's not something you can measure. It's a result of our minds impressing purpose onto objects. It is not an innate quality of the Universe, and there is no reason to assume that any natural objects of any kind have an objective purpose or function. To assume is circular reasoning; you assume design, therefore it must have a designer. The fact that your sources are Christian apologetics sites should tell you all you need to know about this not being a logical argument, but a preconceived idea designed to suit a particular world-view.

 

[JM2C]

Please educate yourself a little more on the topic.


Reliability of Geologic Dating

I need to educate myself so I can debate with you guys? Are you kidding me? None of you can keep up with my post without falling apart. One is saying something that totally disagree with the other one and yet at the end of the day you guys give each other LIKES.

 

[JM2C]

Mary Higby Schweitzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Schweitzer has also discovered that iron particles may play a part in the preservation of soft tissue over geologic time


No mystery here, and not one bit of here work changes anything against the current dating methods.


Fail on your part.

You finally catch-up, huh?

 

[JM2C]

Not literal 24-hour days, but literal unknown length-of-time days.
Where does Scripture say each of the creative days are of the same length of time ?
We do know, according to Hebrews 4 vs 4-11, that God's 7th-day rest was still on going in Paul's day.
Resting that is from further creative works - John 5:17

Mosaic Law Sabbath keeping ended for the Christan congregation at Pentecost.

Not if you are a Jew.

 

[JM2C]

I don't know about you, but I did actually study these things in school.

Explain to me the molecules to man.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Explain to me the molecules to man.

How were you born?

 

[JM2C]

How were you born?

Are you confused now with your past statements? And I need to educate myself, right?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Are you confused now with your past statements?

No, I'm asking you a simple question: how were you born?

 

[JM2C]

No, I'm asking you a simple question: how were you born?

Still confused about order and complexity and entropy? Now, who needs to go back to school?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Still confused about order and complexity and entropy? Now, who needs to go back to school?

I'm not confused about anything, I'm asking you a simple question which addresses YOUR confusion about "molecules to man". Now, tell me: how were you born?