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Harsh Truth: If Intelligent Design is Untestable . . .

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
So if someone said that a ballerina spins like a tornado, does that imply that the ballerina is as big as a tornado as well?
Another good example of analogical extrapolation.

A ballerina spins graciously in front of the audience without hurting them or damaging properties. On the other hand a tornado spins ungraciously and at the same time kills and destroys anything in its path. You are extracting something that was not there.

A table has 4 legs, the same as a cat or a dog, but that is as far as you can analogize it, because you cannot place a cup of coffee on top of a cat or a dog like you would on a table.

A hippo with a tail that bends like a cedar tree is like a ballerina spinning like a tornado.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Just a head-up, before you repeat another falsehood.

The 2nd law of thermodynamics refers to waste heat in closed mechanical systems, not to organisms. Maybe look it up and read it.
What happened to this energy? Can you reverse the process, from waste back to heat energy like the 1st law of thermodynamics?
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
WE HAVE ALL OF THE CREDIBILITY, YOU HAVE NONE.

PROVIDE CREDIBLE SOURCES.

Because all credible sources say evolution is fact.


We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:



    • In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
    • Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
    • Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
    • Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin
how many times are you going to post this?
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
by simple laws? countless millions of chance improvements? that's a tough one.


atheists faced exactly the same problem trying to account for the physical universe with simple classical laws and chance- they don't work- and for the same reason you stated: Entropy


Life and the physical universe would both collapse into their simplest homogenous state under entropy, without specific instructions directing them to specific functional results.
Can you be more specific here? Thanks
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What happened to this energy? Can you reverse the process, from waste back to heat energy like the 1st law of thermodynamics?
The energy doesn't go away...it just loses its ability to do work.
Example:
Suppose you have a closed system containing 2 jugs of water.
One is cold, & the other is hot.
This temperature difference allows work to be done, eg, a heat engine could turn a fan in the closed system.
But the process of extracting this work isn't fully reversible, ie, there are losses.
These losses show up as the difference between the energy of work, & the energy used.
The process of generating work equalizes the temperatures of the 2 jugs.
Once the temperatures are the same, no more work can be done.
All the energy is still there, but it isn't usable for work anymore.

Entropy is a measure of how unavailable for work the energy is.
When the jugs are at different temperatures, the entropy is low.
When the jug temperatures equalize, entropy is at a maximum.
Weird, eh?
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
The energy doesn't go away...it just loses its ability to do work.


Example:

Suppose you have a closed system containing 2 jugs of water.

One is cold, & the other is hot.

This temperature difference allows work to be done, eg, a heat engine could turn a fan in the closed system.

But the process of extracting this work isn't fully reversible, ie, there are losses.

These losses show up as the difference between the energy of work, & the energy used.

The process of generating work equalizes the temperatures of the 2 jugs.

Once the temperatures are the same, no more work can be done.

All the energy is still there, but it isn't usable for work anymore.
when the temperatures on both side of the jugs equalized heat death will occur, so this is the 1st LoT, right?
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Another good example of analogical extrapolation.

A ballerina spins graciously in front of the audience without hurting them or damaging properties. On the other hand a tornado spins ungraciously and at the same time kills and destroys anything in its path. You are extracting something that was not there.

A table has 4 legs, the same as a cat or a dog, but that is as far as you can analogize it, because you cannot place a cup of coffee on top of a cat or a dog like you would on a table.

A hippo with a tail that bends like a cedar tree is like a ballerina spinning like a tornado.
Which further goes to show that you shouldn't assume that a tail which "bends like a cedar" also has other properties of a cedar (such as size).
You said fight entropy. Entropy is the principle of the 2nd LoT.
Exactly. Entropy can decrease locally in a system: a cup of water freezing decreases its entropy, for example. This is allowed so long as the system as a whole does not decrease in entropy. The increase in entropy that the Sun is producing through nuclear fusion massively offsets any decrease in entropy that the biosphere gains from photosynthesis of its light.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
how many times are you going to post this?

As many times as you ignore these facts. Maybe you do not understand what a fact is. Why hate education?

PROVIDE CREDIBLE SOURCES.

Because all credible sources say evolution is fact.


We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:
  1. In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
  2. Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
  3. Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
  4. Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Which further goes to show that you shouldn't assume that a tail which "bends like a cedar" also has other properties of a cedar (such as size).
God did not plant seedlings but brought out trees.

GE 1:29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

GE 1:30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.

Any way you look at it the Behemoth’s tail is like a cedar tree.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
when the temperatures on both side of the jugs equalized heat death will occur, so this is the 1st LoT, right?
The 1st law is at work (in that energy was conserved), but this is more about the 2nd law.
Yes, tis "heat death" of this closed system.
Makes us glad the Earth is an open system, eh?
But the universe....is it open or closed?
The answer is above my pay grade.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
God did not plant seedlings but brought out trees.

Unsubstantiated rhetoric.

Trees factually evolved.

PROVIDE CREDIBLE SOURCES.

Because all credible sources say evolution is fact.


We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:
  1. In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
  2. Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
  3. Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
  4. Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
God did not plant seedlings but brought out trees.

GE 1:29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

GE 1:30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.

Any way you look at it the Behemoth’s tail is like a cedar tree.
So there is no reason to think that the Behemoth was a dinosaur.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
You are very kind today. I will read the paper and get back to you.

At times it is easier just to provide something people can read away from the thread which has more details than a forum thread supports.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
When you look at the Petronas Towers what is the first thing in your mind? The World Trade Center or the Twin Towers in NY. When God described the Behemoth’s tail, the first thing in His mind is the Cedar tree.
Then God is an idiot, if he did exist.

The bible frequently used similes.

When comparing one object describing and comparing another object that is unrelated to the first object.

Using similes is what make writings "creative", and that's wonderful, except that such descriptions are never (or are rarely) accurate.

Job (the book, not the chief character in this book) is only describing the tail bending like that of cedar, but originally in your reply to me, you claim that it is like the height or size of dinosaur. You have jump to the conclusion that the verse bending its tail like cedar (which mean the tail is "stiff"), as if it was talking about its height or size of the creature (behemoth). How stiff or bendy the tail is, doesn't describe its length, because it isn't talking about the length of the tail.

You have a tendency to jump to the wrong conclusion, time and time again, never admitting you were wrong in your assumption. And even when you know that people say to you that you are wrong, you get all evasive, by trying to change the subject, or attempting to move the goal post, just so you can avoid admitting your assumptions were wrong.

A number of times, you make wild and ignorant claims, and people have to try correct you, but instead of learning from your mistakes, you just make more absurd claims.

The problem is not just you being wrong - anyone and everyone make mistakes, including me - what really matter is that you learn from your mistake, and don't make the same mistake again.

I don't know what your educational background, but it is seriously lacking in the area of science. You don't seem to comprehend, that quoting from creationist website(s), which are not credible scientific sources, and when you do use something credible, you have twisted the context of text and whom you have quoted from. And that's not just ignorance, but willful dishonesty on your part.

But not you. So far I have a lot of replies from other members that refute your claims on the matter of science (like, on biology, chemistry, physics, geology, etc), and not once I have seen you admit the other party was right or correct. Instead your tactics is to be evasive and dig your own hole deeper by changing the goal post, by making up more wild and bogus claims.

But getting back to the point of simile.

Similes are often used by writers, for its literary values, not for accurate scientific understanding. Similes are often used in metaphor, in myth and in allegory (like parable).

One thing Job 40:15-18 doesn't describe, and that is it isn't any dinosaur. That you would jump in and say to me it is a dinosaur, show how little know what a dinosaur is. Nothing in these 4 verses are in any way accurate.

For example, it described the bones first as being bronze, and limbs being like iron:
Job 40:18 said:
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like bars of iron.

Let analyse these 2 lines separately.

In the last line, the limbs are describe "like bars of iron", and clearly it is using simile to describe the limbs, because it use the word "like".

Using words, for instances - "like" and "as" - are commonly-used instruments for describing something (noun) with something else (another noun) that are unrelated but shared some loosely "like" characteristics. It is never meant to be taken literally.

The above translation to 40:18, come from NRSV ("like an ox" in 40:15, "like a cedar" in 40:17), so it used "like", KJV, on the other hand, used "like" for verses 17 & 18, but "as" in 40:15: "he eateth grass as an ox.".

So in the case with 2nd line in 40:18, the limbs are "like", but they aren't literally "bars of iron". To put it simply, limbs are not iron.

I can write "Usain Bolt runs like the wind", meaning that Bolt can run very fast, it doesn't mean I am saying Bolt is the "wind".

Looking at the 1st line in 40:18 "Its bones are tubes of bronze..."

This line, on the other hand, does use "like" or "as". Instead it used the word "are". That tell me that the behemoth's bones are "literally" made out of bronze.

Nothing in fossils of dinosaurs' bones say that they are made out of bronze. So this behemoth in Job doesn't match your claim that they are dinosaurs.

The rest of description about the behemoth also suggest that behemoth are not dinosaurs. And everything about it showed the absurdity of Job's behemoth.

For instance, there seemed to only one behemoth made by God, supposedly the first creature, according to the first line of Job 40:19:
Job 40:19 said:
“It is the first of the great acts of God—
only its Maker can approach it with the sword.

Ok, so Job claimed that God made behemoth. But why would God only approach his own creation with a sword? Is it even dangerous to God? Why would God even need a weapon?

Your problem with similes is that you are not only taking them literally, but that it talk about how mug of the tail is "bendable", but YOU are making assumption that it is talking about the behemoth's height and size. You are jumping to wrong conclusion. The verse say one thing, but you seemed to think it mean something else.

Do you have natural tendency of changing the context of what the verses say?

You seemed to do the same thing with science. Even when you do quote some scientific article, you changed what it mean, or you don't include all the relevant text in the paragraph. To me that deceptive and very desperate act.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
What happened to this energy? Can you reverse the process, from waste back to heat energy like the 1st law of thermodynamics?
I'm not interested in trying to explain something you will ignore anyway. You misapplied the 2nd law, it does not apply to organisms.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
God did not plant seedlings but brought out trees.

GE 1:29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

GE 1:30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.

Any way you look at it the Behemoth’s tail is like a cedar tree.
LOL, except that the word meant 'penis', the critter had a penis like a cedar - and a navel by the way, which rules out any possibility it could have been a dinosaur.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Exactly. Entropy can decrease locally in a system: a cup of water freezing decreases its entropy, for example.

This is allowed so long as the system as a whole does not decrease in entropy.
Entropy is nature and cannot be controlled by anything other than the nature itself. The only thing that can control entropy is the 3rd LoT or the Absolute Zero (0° K) which is unattainable or impossible.

The increase in entropy that the Sun is producing through nuclear fusion massively offsets any decrease in entropy that the biosphere gains from photosynthesis of its light.
Let’s be clear here. Increase in entropy is disorder and chaos. Decrease in entropy is order and complex.

You are saying the sun is increasing entropy, i.e., disorder and chaos, and at the same time it offsets or equalize to decrease entropy, i.e., order and complex. You have a very good point here, it gives or sustains life, but if we apply the 2nd LoT in all of these, the life that it gives also dies and cannot live again or produce life again. IOW, no non-living things can produce life base on the principle of the 2nd LoT. It’s not going to happen and this is what abiogenesis/evolutionist been teaching ever since.
 
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