Harvard Cultural Club to host Black Mass -- such a welcoming gesture

[HexBomb]

Where do you see "Christianity" in "MESSIANIC JUDAISM??"

...It's a Christian sect founded by a Baptist Minister with no Jewish heritage? They deliberately insert Christian prayers and Scriptures into Jewish ceremonies and services? It was originally called "Hebrew Christians" until they found out that they weren't getting enough Jewish people to buy in and then changed the name?

 

[Desert Snake]

...It's a Christian sect founded by a Baptist Minister with no Jewish heritage? They deliberately insert Christian prayers and Scriptures into Jewish ceremonies and services? It was originally called "Hebrew Christians" until they found out that they weren't getting enough Jewish people to buy in and then changed the name?

Amusing. You know, of course, that Judaism generally accepts converts, so "no jewish heritage" pretty much means nothing to your argument.
Anywho, nice chat..

 

[HexBomb]

Amusing. You know, of course, that Judaism generally accepts converts, so "no jewish heritage" pretty much means nothing to your argument.
Anywho, nice chat..

Except Messianic Judaism is not considered a Jewish denomination by any Jewish authorities, and holds views directly in contradiction to Jewish beliefs.

 

[Shiranui117]

Except Messianic Judaism is not considered a Jewish denomination by any Jewish authorities, and holds views directly in contradiction to Jewish beliefs.

It depends on the type of Messianic Judaism you're talking about. The type you're speaking of? Yes, absolutely. But there are many different sects of Messianic Judaism that try to convert Christians, not Jews. Some branches are outright anti-Christian--calling St. Paul a false apostle and a hijacker, rejecting the Trinity just as vehemently as any Jew, and demanding that all Christians be circumcised and begin following the Mosaic Law strictly if they want to be saved, and rejecting basically anything to do with orthodox (small-o) Christianity. These types of Messianic Judaism would outright tell the Jews to remain Jewish.

 

[Drolefille]

It depends on the type of Messianic Judaism you're talking about. The type you're speaking of? Yes, absolutely. But there are many different sects of Messianic Judaism that try to convert Christians, not Jews. Some branches are outright anti-Christian--calling St. Paul a false apostle and a hijacker, rejecting the Trinity just as vehemently as any Jew, and demanding that all Christians be circumcised and begin following the Mosaic Law strictly if they want to be saved, and rejecting basically anything to do with orthodox (small-o) Christianity. These types of Messianic Judaism would outright tell the Jews to remain Jewish.

Do you have any links to some of these organizations? I'm not familiar with them, and really only ever seen anything from Jews for Jesus and their sort.

 

[renaud.kingsland]

Wonderful!

Three cheers for religious freedom!

Hip hip hooray! Hip hip hooray! Hip hip hooray!

 

[Tumah]

Amusing. You know, of course, that Judaism generally accepts converts, so "no jewish heritage" pretty much means nothing to your argument.
Anywho, nice chat..

Hexbomb is spot on this one. Although its true that no Jewish heritage doesn't mean one can't be Jewish, in this case it's pretty well-known that they basically dressed up Christianity in Jewish clothing.
There is even a Bible called the "Orthodox Jewish Bible." The translation even (badly) mimics the English-Hebrew-Yiddish mix that Orthodox Jews use among each other. Sounds legitimate doesn't it? Brings to mind the Bibles that Orthodox Jews use, so it must be kosher!
Except that it has no connection whatsoever to what is classically called Orthodox Judaism.

 

[Desert Snake]

Hexbomb is spot on this one. Although its true that no Jewish heritage doesn't mean one can't be Jewish, in this case it's pretty well-known that they basically dressed up Christianity in Jewish clothing.
There is even a Bible called the "Orthodox Jewish Bible." The translation even (badly) mimics the English-Hebrew-Yiddish mix that Orthodox Jews use among each other. Sounds legitimate doesn't it? Brings to mind the Bibles that Orthodox Jews use, so it must be kosher!
Except that it has no connection whatsoever to what is classically called Orthodox Judaism.

'Spot on'? Really? Using Messianic Judaism as an example of a Christian church? Hey , whatever you say, man..

 

[Tumah]

'Spot on'? Really? Using Messianic Judaism as an example of a Christian church? Hey , whatever you say, man..

I meant about his description of Messianic Judaism.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Desert Snake]

I meant about his description of Messianic Judaism.
I have no idea what you're talking about.

The info I've seen of messianic Judaism is often wildly anti-Christian.

 

[Tumah]

The info I've seen of messianic Judaism is often wildly anti-Christian.

You're not going to get too many Jews by fraternizing with the enemy.

 

[Desert Snake]

You're not going to get too many Jews by fraternizing with the enemy.

Well, you can read that into it, but I'm not convinced that that is the reason for the viewpoint.

 

[Tumah]

Well, you can read that into it, but I'm not convinced that that is the reason for the viewpoint.

Ok. So in general, do you find that Christian denominations such as Catholicism, Protestantism, Mormonism etc, are not anti- all the other denominations?

 

[Amechania]

Actually the Black Mass ritual as described sounds so cornball that I don't imagine too many people will take it very seriously. it might actually get some people excited about Catholicism, if that is indeed possible.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok, I am going to concede some of your points and admit I may be a bit too sure of some of mine.

Yes, if it is detetected hanky panky at the communion service the perpetrator will be hunted down. But really it is no big trick at all to conceal a host. Nowadays they are mostly taken in two hands and many put their hands up to their mouth to consume it never seeing it actually enter. So if you want to pretend and still conceal it in your hands it is easily done. Yes, I will agree that Black Masses can be construed (and are in legitimate places like the military) as its own religion and are given some credibility. But it is the only “established” religion I know of in this country where it has the additional effect of blaspheming another major religion. So it is an affront to say the least denigrating the divinity or icons of another faith. It is the devil laughing at the Christ and the Christians.

It's certainly not the only religion that denigrates other religions. It's not even the only religious group that denigrates Catholics. For instance, the Westminster Confession of Faith - a foundational document in the Anglican communion and certain other denominations - describes the Pope like this:

There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.

Nearly all the anti-Catholic sentiment I've ever heard has come from other Christians.

 

[Akivah]

Nearly all the anti-Catholic sentiment I've ever heard has come from other Christians.

I'd agree with you on that.

In your opinion, do you think this Black Mass is more anti-Christian or anti-Catholic?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'd agree with you on that.

In your opinion, do you think this Black Mass is more anti-Christian or anti-Catholic?

A bit of both, probably. I think that taking on some of the trappings of Catholicism is meant to rile up Protestants ("we're like your 'Papist' enemies, but worse!"), while I think it's the Catholics and not the Protestants who would care more about doing something to a consecrated host.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'd agree with you on that.

In your opinion, do you think this Black Mass is more anti-Christian or anti-Catholic?

It was originally supposed to mock Catholicism because it's said to have developed in Catholic countries centuries ago, specifically France.

Black Mass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But anti-Catholicism is a form of anti-Christianity since Catholicism is a form of Christianity.

 

[Desert Snake]

Ok. So in general, do you find that Christian denominations such as Catholicism, Protestantism, Mormonism etc, are not anti- all the other denominations?

This is irrelevant....My issue was with using a Messianic Judaism group as an example of a Christian group, in order to make a point...

 

[columbus]

I'd agree with you on that.

In your opinion, do you think this Black Mass is more anti-Christian or anti-Catholic?

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Tom