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Has God ever . . . .

Big_TJ

Active Member
This is mostly for Christians/Muslims/etc (especially bible literalist) who reject evolution in favor of "Creationism." Has God ever, ever, ever told you that "creationism" is true and Evolution is not? I mean, really - with all the talking that you do to God through prayers, has he ever told you that creationism is true? Or did you get this just by reading the bible/Quran/whatever?

I would really like to know.
 

greentwiga

Active Member
I am a Biblical literalist but don't reject evolution. I am interested in hearing what those who do have to say. I do read the story of Adam and Eve as literally true, but that leads me to say God allows for evolution. God has not told me whether this version of the theory of evolution is right or if it is going to be adjusted more and that one is right. He has just said, "Evolution? no problem."
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I am a Biblical literalist but don't reject evolution. I am interested in hearing what those who do have to say.

then your not a literalist



just another theist who picks and chooses their own personal interpretation of mythology
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I am a Biblical literalist but don't reject evolution. I am interested in hearing what those who do have to say. I do read the story of Adam and Eve as literally true, but that leads me to say God allows for evolution.
A literal reading of the Garden of Eden story is incompatible with evolution, even if you stretch out the timeline "day-age creationist" style. The story puts the events in the wrong order, and new species arise as groups, not lone pairs.
 

BBTimeless

Active Member
This is mostly for Christians/Muslims/etc (especially bible literalist) who reject evolution in favor of "Creationism." Has God ever, ever, ever told you that "creationism" is true and Evolution is not? I mean, really - with all the talking that you do to God through prayers, has he ever told you that creationism is true? Or did you get this just by reading the bible/Quran/whatever?

I would really like to know.
Even if someone claimed God did tell them, would you believe them?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is mostly for Christians/Muslims/etc (especially bible literalist) who reject evolution in favor of "Creationism." Has God ever, ever, ever told you that "creationism" is true and Evolution is not? I mean, really - with all the talking that you do to God through prayers, has he ever told you that creationism is true? Or did you get this just by reading the bible/Quran/whatever?

I would really like to know.

I don't believe God directly "talks" to anyone today. (Hebrews 1:1,2) Rather, he speaks to all mankind through his written Word. Unlike supposed private communication, the Bible serves as an accurate written record of God's thinking and purposes, and an accurate history of God's dealings with mankind. The Bible clearly teaches that God created plants and animals directly, "according to their kinds", and not through some evolutionary process. Belief in evolution is, in fact, repudiation of the Bible's account of creation, and especially the creation of Adam and Eve. By extension, it is also a repudiation of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, whom Christians profess to follow. (Matthew 19:4,5)

 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I don't believe God directly "talks" to anyone today. (Hebrews 1:1,2) Rather, he speaks to all mankind through his written Word. Unlike supposed private communication, the Bible serves as an accurate written record of God's thinking and purposes, and an accurate history of God's dealings with mankind. The Bible clearly teaches that God created plants and animals directly, "according to their kinds", and not through some evolutionary process. Belief in evolution is, in fact, repudiation of the Bible's account of creation, and especially the creation of Adam and Eve. By extension, it is also a repudiation of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, whom Christians profess to follow. (Matthew 19:4,5)

I don't follow your "by extension". The Genesis account and the Gospels were written thousands of years apart by different people. Why should our opinion of the one influence our opinion of the other?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I don't believe God directly "talks" to anyone today. (Hebrews 1:1,2) Rather, he speaks to all mankind through his written Word. Unlike supposed private communication, the Bible serves as an accurate written record of God's thinking and purposes, and an accurate history of God's dealings with mankind. The Bible clearly teaches that God created plants and animals directly, "according to their kinds", and not through some evolutionary process. Belief in evolution is, in fact, repudiation of the Bible's account of creation, and especially the creation of Adam and Eve. By extension, it is also a repudiation of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, whom Christians profess to follow. (Matthew 19:4,5)

Does the bible really say HOW god made these plants or HOW LONG it took plants to come about? The only problem I could see is if you believe the literal six day creation. Even if God created the earth and everything in it in days then God has surely gone to great lengths to make it look like it took billions of years.
 

camanintx

Well-Known Member
I don't believe God directly "talks" to anyone today. (Hebrews 1:1,2) Rather, he speaks to all mankind through his written Word. Unlike supposed private communication, the Bible serves as an accurate written record of God's thinking and purposes, and an accurate history of God's dealings with mankind.
Which one? There are many bibles and they don't all agree with each other.

The Bible clearly teaches that God created plants and animals directly, "according to their kinds", and not through some evolutionary process. Belief in evolution is, in fact, repudiation of the Bible's account of creation, and especially the creation of Adam and Eve. By extension, it is also a repudiation of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, whom Christians profess to follow. (Matthew 19:4,5)
The Bible clearly teaches that God created seeded plants and fruits before animals when we know for a fact that animals existed before seeded plants and fruits. Not very reassuring for the word of God.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't follow your "by extension". The Genesis account and the Gospels were written thousands of years apart by different people. Why should our opinion of the one influence our opinion of the other?

Since Jesus Christ obviously believed and taught that the Genesis account is true, those professing to be Christians who reject that account are not following Christ's teachings. And since Christ came to provide a ransom for the sin that Adam committed, if there was no Adam, and no sin, there would be no need for the ransom sacrifice that God provided in sending Jesus to earth. (John 3:16, Matthew 20:28) The Bible states: Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22) If Adam did not exist, the Bible is giving a false witness. Thus, the ToE is a repudiation of the entire (true) Christian faith. But it is not the Bible giving the false witness. As Michael Behe stated: "Molecular evolution is not based on scientific authority. There is no publication in the scientific literature...that describes how molecular evolution of any real, complex, biochemical system either did occur or even might have occurred...The assertion of Darwinian molecular evolution is merely bluster."






 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Does the bible really say HOW god made these plants or HOW LONG it took plants to come about? The only problem I could see is if you believe the literal six day creation. Even if God created the earth and everything in it in days then God has surely gone to great lengths to make it look like it took billions of years.

As discussed previously and repeatedly, the creative days are not 24 hour periods. And the universe was created long previous to the first plants and animals created by God, and long previous to the six creative periods in Genesis. (Genesis 1:1)
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Which one? There are many bibles and they don't all agree with each other.


The Bible clearly teaches that God created seeded plants and fruits before animals when we know for a fact that animals existed before seeded plants and fruits. Not very reassuring for the word of God.

Your claim that Bible's don't agree with each other is specious. Interesting is this quote from w09 11/1 p. 14: "Professor Julio Trebolle Barrera, a member of the team of experts charged with studying and publishing the ancient manuscripts known as the Dead Sea Scrolls, says: “The transmission of the text of the Hebrew Bible is of extraordinary exactitude, without parallel in Greek and Latin classical literature.” Respected Bible scholar F. F. Bruce says: “The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of classical authors, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning.” He continues: “If the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt.”

I don't know on what you base your assertion that " we know for a fact that animals existed before seeded plants and fruits." I wonder what they ate?


 

BBTimeless

Active Member
As discussed previously and repeatedly, the creative days are not 24 hour periods. And the universe was created long previous to the first plants and animals created by God, and long previous to the six creative periods in Genesis. (Genesis 1:1)
This is not the first time I have heard this explanation. Do you happen to have a good resource that explains this "timeline"? (I use timeline for a lack of a better term) I would be interested in reading some perspectives on this.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
As discussed previously and repeatedly, the creative days are not 24 hour periods. And the universe was created long previous to the first plants and animals created by God, and long previous to the six creative periods in Genesis. (Genesis 1:1)
That doesn't work either. The very order of the Creation is impossible from a scientific/ historical perspective, with plants being Created before the sun. However, from a mythic perspective, it's perfect!

Excerpted from Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance -
A case in point is the supposition that the numbering of days in Genesis is to be understood in an arithmetical sense. The use of numbers in ancient religious texts was usually numerological rather than numerical; that is, their symbolic value was more important than their secular value as counters. To deal with numbers in a religious context as an actual numbering of days, or eons, is an instance of the way in which a literal reading loses the symbolic richness of the text.

While the conversion of numerology to arithmetic was essential for the rise of modern science, historiography and mathematics, in which numbers had to be neutralized and emptied of any symbolic suggestion in order to be utilized, the result is that numerological symbols are reduced to signs. The principal surviving exception is the number thirteen, which still holds a strange power over Fridays, and over the listing of floors in hotels and high rises.

Biblical literalism, in its treatment of the days of creation, substitutes a modern arithmetical reading for the original symbolic one. Not only does the completion of creation in six days correlate with and support the religious calendar and Sabbath observance (if the Hebrews had had a five-day work week, the account would have read differently), but also the seventh day of rest employs to the full the symbolic meaning of the number seven as wholeness, plenitude, completion.

The religious meaning of the number seven is derived in part from the numerological combination of the three zones of the cosmos (heaven, earth, underworld) seen vertically, and the four directions, or zones, of the cosmos seen horizontally. Thus seven (adding three and four) and twelve (multiplying them) are recurrent biblical symbols of totality and perfection. The liturgically repeated phrase "And God saw that it was good," and the final capping phrase "And behold it was very good," are paralleled and underlined by being placed in a structure climaxed by a seventh day.

A parallelism of two sets of three days is also being employed, with the second set of days populating the first: light and darkness (day one) are populated by the greater and lesser lights (four); firmament and waters (two) by birds and fish (five); earth and vegetation (three) by land animals and humans (six). Two sets of three days, each with two types of created phenomena, equaling twelve, thus permitted the additional association with the corresponding numerological symbol of wholeness and fulfillment. The totality of nature is created by God, and is to be affirmed in a hymn of celebration and praise for its "very goodness."

While it is true that the biblical view of creation sanctifies time and nature as created by God and therefore good it does not follow that the creation accounts as such are to be understood chronologically or as natural history. And while it is true that history is seen as the context and vehicle of divine activity, it does not follow that the creation accounts are to be interpreted as history, or even prehistory. One of the symbolic functions of the creation accounts themselves is to give positive value to time and to provide the staging for history. They are no more historical than the set and scenery of a play are part of the narrative of the drama, or than the order in which an artist fills in the pigment and detail of a painting is part of the significance of the painting.
~ Conrad Hyers, Ph.D

A Literalist reading of Genesis is scientifically indefensible, and no amount of mental gymnastics can change that. Further, it's not even an honest debate between religion and science. As said elsewhere in the article, "The biblical understanding of creation is not being pitted against evolutionary theories, as is supposed; rather, evolutionary theories are being juxtaposed with literalist theories of biblical interpretation. Doing this is not even like comparing oranges and apples; it is more like trying to compare oranges and orangutans."

Now, whether the authors of Genesis were writing myth deliberately, or ignorant guesses at science and history is a worthier debate. I happen to side with the former proposition, but at least there's a question to argue!
 
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