Has God given up the right to punish through giving free will? If so, there is no hell.

[Falvlun]

There are always consequences to our actions, whether good or bad.

Perhaps we are getting hung up on the term "consequences". I agree with you: free-will does not mean you are free from the consequences of your actions.

The difference is that "hell" is not simply a consequence of our actions. It is a tool used to scare people into making a specific choice.

If you are coerced to do something, you do not do it of your own free-will. If a woman "lets" a man rape her, because he has a gun and says he will shoot her if she doesn't let him, has the woman truly consented to rape? Did she choose to be raped?

 

[Falvlun]

You're making a couple assumptions that weren't in the original post:
1) People were given free will so we could freely choose to love god.
2) Loving god gets you into heaven; not loving god gets you into hell.

Maybe the OP intended those to be part of his premises, but since he didn't state them, I didn't consider them (even though some people clearly do believe that).

Perhaps god gave us free will so we could grow and mature. Perhaps people get sent to hell because they treat others horribly. If either one of those is true, your premise is no longer valid.

Your statement is internally consistent. If god gave people free will so we could love him, punishing people for choosing otherwise does seem to defeat the purpose. I just don't agree with your premises.

Agreed. ::thumbs up::

 

[Hospitaller]

No.

If you tell your children that they are free to do as they wish, do you still have the right o punish them after they suffer or enjoy whatever consequences they have created for themselves?

If you had the keys to hell would you send them there?

Regards
DL

How does a parent punish their free child after they suffer? we end up in hell or heaven because of what weve done, not because God sent us to either one. yes God tries to help us to get to Heaven, but we can choose to follow him or not. An analogy:

William turns 18 and moves out because thats what you're "supposed" to do at 18. William takes a liking to smoking and becomes an addict. His parents, who because William is 18 cannot dicipline him, try to help him to stop but William refuses their help. William later develops lung cancer and dies. How did William's parents kill him? his parents tried to help him. william refused. by refusing, William suffered the consequences of smoking, bad health and possibly death.

Same with sin (the smoking) and God (the parents)

 

[Greatest I am]

How does a parent punish their free child after they suffer? we end up in hell or heaven because of what weve done, not because God sent us to either one. yes God tries to help us to get to Heaven, but we can choose to follow him or not. An analogy:

William turns 18 and moves out because thats what you're "supposed" to do at 18. William takes a liking to smoking and becomes an addict. His parents, who because William is 18 cannot dicipline him, try to help him to stop but William refuses their help. William later develops lung cancer and dies. How did William's parents kill him? his parents tried to help him. william refused. by refusing, William suffered the consequences of smoking, bad health and possibly death.

Same with sin (the smoking) and God (the parents)

Not quite. You said the parents help was refused and their actions ended there.
With God, there is a promise of everlasting hell for refusing.

The whole idea of hell is that it is for those who reject God.
Non believers do not reject God, they just do not believe in him.
They do not separate themselves from God. You cannot move away from something you do not believe.

Regards
DL

 

[fallenangel101]

Free will, means that he gave us the choice to choose right or wrong but if we choose wrong then there is a consequence. There is also consequences for right decisions, they're just good consequences. It's cause and effect.

 

[Scott C.]

From the fact that if told you are free to chose right or left and right is a hell and left is a heaven then you are not free to chose are you. Only the insane would chose the right. So if there is only the one choice to a sane person, where is the freedom of choice?

God would not say that you are free to chose my way or burn. That is not a viable freedom.

Regards
DL

MY point is that you did not accurately define the Christian doctrine of free will. If you don't like the term "free" you can call it what you like. The principle is that we have the "ability" to choose. We are not "free" to do what we want without consequences.

Would you agree that I have the "free will" to jump off a cliff? If I exercise that free will or that ability to choose and I do indeed jump, I will face the consequence. The consequence is gravity.

God tells us what is best. He warns and gives guidelines on what we should and should not do. He explains the consequences. Then, we can decide if we want to trust and follow God or go another way.

I don't understand why some people have a hard time accepting God as one who loves us and wants us to become better people. This requires the ability to choose and to experience the good and bad results of our choices. We grow by learning to trust and obey God. We develop divine attributes, which make us happier and better people, as we experience the positive consequences of choosing to follow God's will.

 

[Greatest I am]

Free will, means that he gave us the choice to choose right or wrong but if we choose wrong then there is a consequence. There is also consequences for right decisions, they're just good consequences. It's cause and effect.

My way or hell is not free choice.
Ultimatums do not compute with free choice. It is intimidation that would give us all
Stockholm syndrome.
Ruling us by force is not giving man dominion over the earth.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

MY point is that you did not accurately define the Christian doctrine of free will. If you don't like the term "free" you can call it what you like. The principle is that we have the "ability" to choose. We are not "free" to do what we want without consequences.

Would you agree that I have the "free will" to jump off a cliff? If I exercise that free will or that ability to choose and I do indeed jump, I will face the consequence. The consequence is gravity.

God tells us what is best. He warns and gives guidelines on what we should and should not do. He explains the consequences. Then, we can decide if we want to trust and follow God or go another way.

I don't understand why some people have a hard time accepting God as one who loves us and wants us to become better people. This requires the ability to choose and to experience the good and bad results of our choices. We grow by learning to trust and obey God. We develop divine attributes, which make us happier and better people, as we experience the positive consequences of choosing to follow God's will.

And the wrath of an angry tyrant if we do not cow tow.

Why do thinking people have a hard time accepting your God?
Read the old testament and count the killings that he does. Does he venerate the life of his creations? No.

Reciprocity is fair play.

If he is to show his hated of man then man is right to show his hate for God.

Especially a God that has yet to prove his existence and justice.


Regards
DL

 

[opuntia]

If God kept us in chains, we could do no wrong. But if He set us free, we are free to do as we please. But as in all things, consequences follow our actions. Herein is our judgment.

We are here to do as our hearts and minds dictate. We are here to be tempted to do evil or do good. Doing good to others or not. We are here to be proven craven or brave. As God said to Moses: "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." (Exodus 16:4; KJV). Every human being is being tested to see if they will walk in God's law or not. Whether they will treat their neighbors kindly or abuse them. Whether they will treat the earth itself and the animals and plants upon it kindly or not. Judgment can only follow after someone has done something (or did nothing, such as not helping someone), not before.

 

[Enoch07]

My way or hell is not free choice.
Ultimatums do not compute with free choice. It is intimidation that would give us all
Stockholm syndrome.
Ruling us by force is not giving man dominion over the earth.

Regards
DL

Yes it is free will. You are giving a choice. You can choose to follow or not. There is consequences for not following the right choice. It is the same as american law. It is against the law to murder. If you are found guilty of murder, you could face the death penalty. It does not stop people from committing murder. The same is for free will. God established the rules and we have to obey them or pay the price. You are just afraid to accept the responsibilities of your actions, because you feel you should be able to do whatever you want to do and not be punished. If there was no free will you would not have a choice to do what you wanted. You would be forced to always do what God says no matter what you wanted. But obviously this is not the case, or we would not be here discussing it.

 

[Greatest I am]

If God kept us in chains, we could do no wrong. But if He set us free, we are free to do as we please. But as in all things, consequences follow our actions. Herein is our judgment.

We are here to do as our hearts and minds dictate. We are here to be tempted to do evil or do good. Doing good to others or not. We are here to be proven craven or brave. As God said to Moses: "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no." (Exodus 16:4; KJV). Every human being is being tested to see if they will walk in God's law or not. Whether they will treat their neighbors kindly or abuse them. Whether they will treat the earth itself and the animals and plants upon it kindly or not. Judgment can only follow after someone has done something (or did nothing, such as not helping someone), not before.

God's law says that woman is less than man, Gays are to be discriminated against without cause and that there is a certain way to beat your slaves.

Quite the set of laws for men, not women and slave owners, not slaves.
As to Gays, God must have penis envy.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Yes it is free will. You are giving a choice. You can choose to follow or not. There is consequences for not following the right choice. It is the same as american law. It is against the law to murder. If you are found guilty of murder, you could face the death penalty. It does not stop people from committing murder. The same is for free will. God established the rules and we have to obey them or pay the price. You are just afraid to accept the responsibilities of your actions, because you feel you should be able to do whatever you want to do and not be punished. If there was no free will you would not have a choice to do what you wanted. You would be forced to always do what God says no matter what you wanted. But obviously this is not the case, or we would not be here discussing it.

You are so illogical.
You compare secular law where the penalty fits the crime. A good system.
To one where a thief has the same penalty as Hitler.
Are you so illogical that you cannot see the difference?

Regards
DL

 

[logician]

That is why I say that if God is true to his word, there can be no hell.

Regards
DL

Hey, w/o a hell, of what use is a god?

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

Has God given up the right to punish through giving free will? If so, there is no hell.

It is said that God gave man free will.
This to me, means that God gave man dominion over himself and over the earth. Without any restrictions or coercion from Him.
The idea then that He would mean that we must do as He says or go to hell cannot be a true concept if the term free will is to mean anything.
If we as parents give or allow our children to have freedom when they leave our homes, then that means that we give up any right or responsibility to punish them.
To keep things simple, let us say that the rules of my home includes making the bed.
I notice when visiting my children in their home, that they have chosen not to make their beds.
I then would be out of line to reprimand or punish them for not making their beds. They are free to do so or not if they have free will.
This seems right. It is no longer my place as a father to punish them. They are free and have dominion over themselves.
God then should not and would not hold a hell over our heads to demand compliance to His rules.
Is free will with consequences from God, hell for non compliance, free will at all?
Is being free to only follow His rules free will?
Has God given up the right to punish free men?
Do we truly have dominion on earth?

Regards
DL

There is no such thing as free will as understood by modern man. God does whatever He pleases because He is God.

Psalm 135:6

Whatever the Lord pleases, he does,
in heaven and on earth,
in the seas and all deeps.

Boasting About Tomorrow - james 4

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

 

[Greatest I am]

Hey, w/o a hell, of what use is a god?

God is the hidden non existing epitome of what man is to aspire to.

Just a target for the morality we invent.

At least that is what the bible God is.

The real God of this earth is a cosmic consciousness that seems to only sit and wait for us to find it and then helps us develop mentally. No miracles, no proof for anyone that does not find him on their own. I offer my testimony that it exists and that is all I can show.

Regards
DL

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

God is the hidden non existing epitome of what man is to aspire to.

Just a target for the morality we invent.

At least that is what the bible God is.

The real God of this earth is a cosmic consciousness that seems to only sit and wait for us to find it and then helps us develop mentally. No miracles, no proof for anyone that does not find him on their own. I offer my testimony that it exists and that is all I can show.

Regards
DL

Please share your source of revelation.

 

[Greatest I am]

There is no such thing as free will as understood by modern man. God does whatever He pleases because He is God.

Psalm 135:6

Whatever the Lord pleases, he does,
in heaven and on earth,
in the seas and all deeps.

Boasting About Tomorrow - james 4

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Do I detect Stockholm syndrome.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Please share your source of revelation.

For my God or the Bible God?

I guess it does not matter. Mine I found with my mind, The other I deduced with the same mind.

Regards
DL

 

[Enoch07]

You are so illogical.
You compare secular law where the penalty fits the crime. A good system.
To one where a thief has the same penalty as Hitler.
Are you so illogical that you cannot see the difference?

Regards
DL

You are wrong there. If you steal something it is not held against you the same as killing millions of people. It is a lot easier for God to forgive you for stealing something, than it is for killing a single person. Killing millions of people like Hitler did, is pretty much a death sentence for your soul. Only reason I say pretty much is because it is wrong for me to judge Hitler, because I am not God. But I know God good enough to say that Hitler does not have much of a chance at passing judgment. Your logic is biased, because you cannot differentiate the difference between thievery and murder.

 

[Christian Pilgrim]

For my God or the Bible God?

I guess it does not matter. Mine I found with my mind, The other I deduced with the same mind.

Regards
DL

Do you personally oppose the 10 commandments, and if so, which ones? Please consider the last 6 commandments as universal truth, applicable to our fellow man.

Exodus 20
The Ten Commandments

20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before [1] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands [2] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder. [3]
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.”
18 Now when all the people saw the thunder and the flashes of lightning and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid [4] and trembled, and they stood far off 19 and said to Moses, “You speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let God speak to us, lest we die.” 20 Moses said to the people, “Do not fear, for God has come to test you, that the fear of him may be before you, that you may not sin.” 21 The people stood far off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.