Has india lost kashmir already?

[sthitpradnya]

hi people,
i am not aware of the media coverage given to the kashmir issue in the west so first i would like to put a few things straight.
1) some 20 years ago the hindu-muslim ratio in the kashmir valley was 25:75.

2)about 1989 pakistan started its training camps in POK(pakistan-occupied kashmir) and regularly trained kashmiri muslim youth in terrorism.these youths returned to the valley and carried out their "missions" as per instructions from their pakistani masters.the "mission" was a blatant ethnic cleansing of the hindus(called pandits) so as to create a muslim-majority zone in the valley.

3) these "missions" were continually assisted by pakistani terrorists themselves who kept infiltrating into the valley across a mountaneous terrain impossible to monitor at all times.

4) these missions were always supported by local muslims in the valley,be it common citizens,policemen,special task officers,civil servants even doctors and surgeons.

5) the entire attitude of the local muslims toward the kashmiri/pakistani terrorists is that of disgusting glorification.even in the recent past when the Indian army, after long nerve-wracking hours of combat killed a terrorist in hiding, the muslims have given the terrorist a hero's burial.and hailed him as "gazi" meaning holy warrior.defending kashmir has been a very thankless and degrading task for the indian army which ranks among the best in the world.officers of the rank of Captain and Major have been tortured and slaughtered by paki/kashmiri street thugs posing as mujahideen .

6) today the valley has been "purged" of hindus most of whom have escaped with their lives to southern Jammu or other states like Himachal.the "official" number of hindus
killed in this cleansing stands at 80000.millions of others have forsaken their motherland for fear of losing their lives.

7) now that the valley has become a "green-zone" meaning a landmass entirely populated by muslims pakistan is itching to tear it away in one final move.the recent "public demonstrations" against the indian army/govt by the muslims is phase 1 of this last part.the fools are adamant on two points.the first being territorial autonomy to kashmir and unconditional withdrawal of the armed forces from the valley.they also want the Armed Forces Special Powers Act to be repealed which would make it impossible for the indian govt to deploy armed forces in the valley in the future.needless to say the People's Republic of China would swallow kashmir in a day if this really comes about.

8) the govt in delhi is unashamedly pro-muslim.they are already making noises about provincial autonomy and wthdrawing the army.their sole concern is "not to hurt Muslim sentiment across the country" which happens to be their reliable votebank for sixty years now.

9) any hope of salvaging kashmir folks? any suggestions on how kashmiri hindus could be rehabilitated in the valley?

 

[Willamena]

What is so important to the muslims about this particular valley?

 

[Bismillah]

Did India ever have Kashmir is a more relevant question. Why don't you ask the Kashmiri people themselves.

What is so important to the muslims about this particular valley?

Because this particular valley is where they have lived for generations. Singling out a religion is fallacy, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Sikhs all call this place a home and deserve to have their voices heard.

 

[sthitpradnya]

Did India ever have Kashmir is a more relevant question. Why don't you ask the Kashmiri people themselves.

Because this particular valley is where they have lived for generations. Singling out a religion is fallacy, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Sikhs all call this place a home and deserve to have their voices heard.

now the muslims have issued a fatwa warning the sikhs to convert to islam or to leave the valley.same as they did to the hindus earlier on.that's "tolerance" of other faiths in your eyes?

 

[Bismillah]

Why are you avoiding your own questions? You asked has India lost Kashmir. I said did India ever have kashmir?

The only fatwa I could find in relation to the Sikhs was one issued by an Indian ulema condemning terrorism and the idea of taxing sikhs in Pakistan. \

Deoband Ulema in India have repeatedly mentioned that the Taliban government in Afghanistan was Un-Islamic. This was most recently reiterated at a convention in Karachi recently.[29] These include the idea of establishing shariah rule with force in the name of Jihad and levying of "jizya" on Sikh citizens of Pakistan, which was termed as nothing more than extortion by armed gangs.[30]

Fatw

By the way why would any sane being think of that aforementioned fatwa as tolerant? You think I am militant or radical because of my religion? Why don't you grow up.

 

[England my lionheart]

What do you expect from Pakistan,its a corrupt Terrorist state,hell they even cheat at Cricket

 

[Bismillah]

I'm interested why you think Pakistan is a terrorist state. You would put them on par with regimes like the one in Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas and the likes that are ruled by the U.S as terrorist regimes.

 

[England my lionheart]

I'm interested why you think Pakistan is a terrorist state. You would put them on par with regimes like the one in Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas and the likes that are ruled by the U.S as terrorist regimes.

The Pakistani Government allows its security service to organise and support what we commonly label as Terrorists,Pakistan is a mess of Human rights violations and it was Pakistan who crossed the Green line,it was Pakistan who allowed militants to infiltrate into Kasmir,thats why two huge armies are facing each other over Kashmir.

 

[England my lionheart]

Pakistans weak claim on Kashmir is that if the majority of Kasmir is Muslim it should be administered by them and thats why they allowed militants to infiltrate and why they want the Sikhs gone.

 

[Bismillah]

The Pakistani Government allows its security service to organise and support what we commonly label as Terrorists,Pakistan is a mess of Human rights violations and it was Pakistan who crossed the Green line,it was Pakistan who allowed militants to infiltrate into Kasmir,thats why two huge armies are facing each other over Kashmir.

The ISI has supported the Afghan Taliban, but have you ever wondered why? After millions poured in military aid by the U.S to resist the Soviets, they left both the Afghanis and Pakistanis holding the bag. What would any competent intelligence agency do when armed resistance fighters were busy revolting and counter revolting next door?

As for Kashmir, I maintain that the right to self determination guaranteed by the U.N yet barred by India would end any "terrorism" India faces. If the occupying Indian army were to leave Kashmir then it's logical they wouldn't face Kashmiri terrorism, nor would they have the blood of Kashmiris on their hands.

As for their human rights record it's not secret that Pakistan is a poor country riddled with corruption and it's now surprise that the ruling government is preoccupied with bigger things, particularly explosions in the capital.

I'm not sure how you can label Pakistan as a terrorist nation when it's people are the ones that directly suffer the most at the hands of terrorists, it's military is the one that is engaged in fighting these terrorists and suffering casualties that exceed any other military's commitment in the "war against terror" while the economy is non existant, even while Pakistan faces its largest disaster in its history. It is interesting to note that from your remarks hint that Pakistan is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Ultimately, labeling the people who suffer the most from terrorist attacks and who are engaged in a conflict before the war on terror was acknowledged with terrorists will only serve to alienate them and fuel the jihadis. Then I guess I'll see how happy you will be then.

 

[Bismillah]

Pakistans weak claim on Kashmir is that if the majority of Kasmir is Muslim it should be administered by them and thats why they allowed militants to infiltrate and why they want the Sikhs gone.

First of all, Kashmir was for all intents and purposes a territory intended to become a part of Pakistan until the Maharaja found it fit to do otherwise. Regardless of that I'll ask you the same question I asked the OP.Why don't you ask the Kashmiris what they want.

I am still waiting for a link to the Fatwa.

 

[England my lionheart]

The ISI has supported the Afghan Taliban, but have you ever wondered why? After millions poured in military aid by the U.S to resist the Soviets, they left both the Afghanis and Pakistanis holding the bag. What would any competent intelligence agency do when armed resistance fighters were busy revolting and counter revolting next door?

OK so far

As for Kashmir, I maintain that the right to self determination guaranteed by the U.N yet barred by India would end any "terrorism" India faces. If the occupying Indian army were to leave Kashmir then it's logical they wouldn't face Kashmiri terrorism, nor would they have the blood of Kashmiris on their hands.

Wrong,Pakistan oppose Kashmiri independence as do India so the only two choices for Kashmir is Pakistan or India so i don't call that self determination.

As for their human rights record it's not secret that Pakistan is a poor country riddled with corruption and it's now surprise that the ruling government is preoccupied with bigger things, particularly explosions in the capital.

Yes it is preoccupied because its getting a taste of its own medicine,yes its poor Country but that does'nt excuse the crimes they commit,mind you its not much of a surprise considering the type of Government it is.

I'm not sure how you can label Pakistan as a terrorist nation when it's people are the ones that directly suffer the most at the hands of terrorists, it's military is the one that is engaged in fighting these terrorists and suffering casualties that exceed any other military's commitment in the "war against terror" while the economy is non existant, even while Pakistan faces its largest disaster in its history. It is interesting to note that from your remarks Pakistan is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Ultimately, labeling the people who suffer the most from terrorist attacks and who are engaged in a conflict before the war on terror was acknowledged with terrorists will only serve to alienate them and fuel the jihadis. Then I guess I'll see how happy you will be then.

I have the utmost sympathy for the Pakistani people,after all they have little or no freedom of concience and little education,they live under a shockingly cruel legal system with little hope of any improvement any time soon.

 

[England my lionheart]

First of all, Kashmir was for all intents and purposes a territory intended to become a part of Pakistan until the Maharaja found it fit to do otherwise. Regardless of that I'll ask you the same question I asked the OP.Why don't you ask the Kashmiris what they want.

I am still waiting for a link to the Fatwa.

The Maharaja found fit to do so on the proviso that there would be a referendum of self determination which should include a vote on independence which neither Pakistan or India would agree to.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Pakistan has in effect annexed Kashmir.The majority of the population is islamized.

The position is very similar to that of the territories that Israel has taken from the Arabs.

The position is unlikely to be reversed.

The Government in Pakistan is very weak, many of its institutions and forces are infilterated by extreemists. As a country it is not Terrorist, but it is an easy place for terrorists to thrive.

It has large backward areas where the Taliban are welcome for giving more support to the local people, than they can get from corrupt government officials.
Pakistans fortunes are no doubt tied to that of Militant Islam.

Countries in their condition are noted for corruption, terrorism, and moral decline. We have evidence of all three.

Eventually Militant Islam will fail them... but I am not about to hold my breath.

Efforts, by the west, to counter this trend are both expensive and failing.

 

[Bismillah]

England: Why are the only two choices Kashmiri face India or Pakistan? Why not let Kashmiris make the choice themselves and why can't they choose either Pakistan or India? You realize both India and Paksitan administered Kashmir are regarded as autonomous territories? Like I said if the Indian army leaves, then Kashmir can finally begin to heal itself. Living under perpetual occupation won't help anything, it'll just promote fighting between Kashmiri rebels and the Indian army with the civilian population suffering the most.

You realize the only reason Pakistan is swamped by terrorism is because of the Government's support of the U.S? Again there is a difference between terrorists residing in Pakistan, and the government sponsoring terrorists. To the contrary the government is locked in a futile battle to expel these extremists. Can you explain the types of "crimes" the government commits?

Your sympathy would be put to better use in encouraging the government during the only time in Pakistan's history that it has actively engaged against terrorists. This would be more productive than alienating an already distrustful public and affirming their beliefs of Western hypocrisy.

No, the Mahajara agreed to accede Kashmir to India.

By the way, your line of reasoning indicates that most nations are terrorist states. I guess the United States and Britain are terrorist sponsoring states, do you agree with that?

 

[Bismillah]

Pakistan has in effect annexed Kashmir.The majority of the population is islamized.

Last time I checked it was the Indian military occupying Kashmir.

The position is very similar to that of the territories that Israel has taken from the Arabs.

Except the Arabs were the locals in Palestine and outnumbered and still do outnumber foreign Jews. Whereas Kashmir was always inhabited with a large majority of Muslims. I agree that the exodus of many other minorities is regrettable, but then again at the time huge masses of people were relocated and believe there were about 15 million refugees on both sides of the border. This instance really isn't that unique.

many of its institutions and forces are infilterated by extreemists

Source please? Will this lead you to the line of reasoning that the militants may some day take control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal!

It has large backward areas where the Taliban are welcome for giving more support to the local people, than they can get from corrupt government officials.

The tribal belt surrounding the Afghani-Paki border is pretty much an autonomous region. This is where the majority of terrorists can be found, not in Islamabad. I don't agree with your second point. The locals do no support the terrorists and tribal elders are regularly targeted and killed for protesting the crimes that these organizations commit against innocents.

Eventually Militant Islam will fail them... but I am not about to hold my breath.

Fail who? The terrorists? Do you think they actually have a realistic interpretation of the world? As for civilians, I think it really is obvious that they have already rejected and fear militant Islam.

Efforts, by the west, to counter this trend are both expensive and failing.

Really efforts by the West to counter terrorism in Pakistan are expensive? How much is it a couple drone missiles and 7 billion in aid for the next decade? This is a reference to actual failed attempts against "terrorism" COSTOFWAR.COM - The Cost of War

 

[England my lionheart]

England: Why are the only two choices Kashmiri face India or Pakistan? Why not let Kashmiris make the choice themselves and why can't they choose either Pakistan or India? You realize both India and Paksitan administered Kashmir are regarded as autonomous territories? Like I said if the Indian army leaves, then Kashmir can finally begin to heal itself. Living under perpetual occupation won't help anything, it'll just promote fighting between Kashmiri rebels and the Indian army with the civilian population suffering the most.

I am all for self determination,what i am saying is if there were to be a referendum there are just two choices as independence would be unacceptable to India or Pakistan.

You realize the only reason Pakistan is swamped by terrorism is because of the Government's support of the U.S? Again there is a difference between terrorists residing in Pakistan, and the government sponsoring terrorists. To the contrary the government is locked in a futile battle to expel these extremists. Can you explain the types of "crimes" the government commits?

Pakistan is swamped with Terrorists because its a weak Government with no control,as for the crimes it commits Sharia law Hudood punishments are crimes on there own.

Your sympathy would be put to better use in encouraging the government during the only time in Pakistan's history that it has actively engaged against terrorists. This would be more productive than alienating an already distrustful public and affirming their beliefs of Western hypocrisy.

Pakistan should have actively engaged the terrorists a long long time ago

No, the Mahajara agreed to accede Kashmir to India.

By the way, your line of reasoning indicates that most nations are terrorist states. I guess the United States and Britain are terrorist sponsoring states, do you agree with that?

No i don't,even our worst Governments do not tollerate them

 

[sthitpradnya]

the truth of the matter is -
1) when muslims are in a minority in a country they keep bleating about "minority rights" .
2) as soon as they become the majority other communities, HOWEVER FARTHER BACK THEY HAPPEN TO HAVE INHABITED THAT AREA THAN MUSLIMS get driven out by muslims BY WHATEVER MEANS THEY THINK FIT.IT IS A HISTORICAL TRUTH THAT HINDUS HAVE BEEN INHABITANTS OF KASHMIR EVEN BEFORE ISLAM WAS FORMULATED IN ARABIA BY MOHAMMAD.the only claim they have over kasmir is "majority".that's the precise point of my post.
3) if you see the history of islam esp after the death of mohammad during the reign of the khalifas you will find this pattern repeated everywhere they went with their vandalising "armies".
4) what is this pattern? converting inhabitants of a land to islam.turning them against their own fellowmen who refuse to be converted.gradually swelling the ranks of muslims by polygamy,fraudulent conversions,driving out other communities.finally laying claim to be the sole inheritors of that land because it happens to be dar-ul-islam meaning land of islam.neat strategy huh?

 

[sthitpradnya]

another example of this "geopolitical" pattern of islam.have you heard of a group of islands called the Maldives in the indian ocean? these islands were once entirely populated by hindus.in fact the other name for it is "laksha-dweep" which means "a hundred thousand islands" in sanskrit.
today it is an exclusively muslim "republic".the official state policy of Maldives only allows muslims to apply for citizenship.if a non-muslim desires to marry a subject of the republic he/she has to convert to islam first.once muslims takeover a territory this is the "liberal" policy they adopt to keep "undesired elements" at bay.comments?

 

[Sufi]

Kashmir is the Palestine of Asia Hindus are commiting a masjor genocide against the Muslims there i have many friends from the Kashmiri area and the Indians/Hindus are commiting enormous atrocities (murder rape genocide) etc Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and the Muslim Community.