Has india lost kashmir already?

[England my lionheart]

England:

Who cares how many X amount of choices there are if Kashmiris are only concerned with choice y and z.

I care,because its not self determination

Every nation has committed crimes in its past. Your own nation is responsible for some of the greatest suffering and oppression bought upon the world. This and the fact that England has been a nation for thousands of years should indicate something, it takes time to develop. Especially when a country is confronted by warlike Westerners threading to "bomb you back to the stone age". Either way it's a lose/lose for Pakistan, yet you continue to complain about civil rights when the country was formed relatively overnight.

LOL formed,theres no need to bomb it back to the Stoneage its beyond that,1947 partition and Pakistan have struggled ever since,1948 Israel state declaration and Israel flourish.


Haha there is no appeasing you is there. By the way there is evidence that India is helping to fund secessionists and the TTP in Pakistan to destabilize the government.

Show us the evidence and we shall discuss

You still haven't answered this

I already answered

 

[nameless]

Why don't you ask the Kashmiri people themselves.

Kashmir belongs to Pakistan and the Muslim Community

Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey

NEW DELHI: For those who still think a plebiscite will tilt the status of Kashmir and that most Kashmiris yearn to wave the Pakistani green, there are now numbers for the first time to contradict these claims.

A survey carried out across both Jammu and Kashmir and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, that its author claims is the first ever of its kind, shows that only 2% of the respondents on the Indian side favour joining Pakistan and most such views were confined to Srinagar and Budgam districts. In six of the districts surveyed late last year by researchers from the London-based thinktank Chatham House, not a single person favoured annexation with Pakistan, a notion that remains the bedrock for the hardline separate campaign in Kashmir.

Read more: Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey - The Times of India Just 2% of people in J&K want to join Pak: Survey - The Times of India

 

[nameless]

“We have very little doubt that the Indians and the Israelis, that are all over Afghanistan with German passports pretending to be military contractors, are operating 17 camps along the Taliban regions training and arming terrorists."
Gordon Duff, Editor of Veterans Today


Framing Pakistan: how the pro-Israel media enables India’s surrogate warfare > Global > Redress Information & Analysis

Any proof to defend this? nothing more than the hear-say, these claims are not even eligible for first test of Propaganda...

 

[nameless]

It's a quote from the article. I didn't write it, it's just the first of articles to come up in my search.

you should atleast verify the credibility of the article before posting here.

It's obvious that tension between Pakistan and India have always been high and it wouldn't surprise me that elements within the Indian government, either independently or ordered to, were engaged in various "unkosher" activities to destabilize Pakistan.

provide proof if you have any, or it would be an disgraceful attempt...

Likewise, it wouldn't surprise me that Pakistan had done the same against India.

it is a truth pakistan exports terrorism to india.

Anyway I'm going to post a final comment and leave it at that. Anyone with a basic understanding of South East History knows that the Muslim sultanates and empires achieved their rule through war. I understand that and I know that many Hindus and other religious minorities were persecuted by demented rulers living by a barbaric code of life.

thats how muslims became majority in kashmir, and pakistan arguing to separate kashmir, how pathethic....

But among these emperors were also some of the most benevolent and pragmatic rulers of the time including Babur. Sure, there is a dark spot in many of their rule of religious intolerance and persecution.

There was not even a single ruler who was not tyrannic, and babur is the most barbarian out of them. Again your knowledge in history so pathetic.

However, even more strongly is the good that came out of a Hindu Muslim land. The Dheli Sultanate and the Mughal Empire helped restore the prestige of India to heights that weren't heard since the demise of the Gupta Empire and raised India to a world class civilization for a long time. Even now the Taj Mahal, one of the most recognized cultural symbols of India, is a testimony to the good of their rule.

pure non-sense. Islamic conquest of india is often described by historians as the bloodiest thing to happen in the human history. 80 million hindus were persecuted during those days, mass rapes, looting the weatlth, innumerable temples were destroyed, kidnapped, plunderered, and you claim there happened even more good. India was the richest nation before islamic nation, now among the poorest, just pathetic your claims are..... i bet none of the historians would agree to this crappy claim.

Associating and calling the descendants of these Muslims "barbarians" and labeling them as not being either Indian or, in the threads case, Kashmiri is ignorant prejudiced thinking. They have lived in that land for hundreds of years and are as rightful inhabitants. Denying their status as Kashmiri is not only wrong it is pointless. They are not going to leave Kashmir short of a forced exodus. It is idiotic to ignore what these people think and want and to believe that a military can stay and occupy the land which so detests their presence is foolish.

Ofcourse they have right to live there, but advocating for separation is pointless when india-pak history and that of kashmiris is considered, though there are only few who are in favour in that.

It is obvious that if things remain the same in Kashmir violence will only multiply and will cost Indian and Kashmiri lives.

In short the problems within Kashmir will multiply and will be a lose lose for everybody. The right to self determination would solve this problem and negate one of the biggest issues that prevent a lasting and meaningful peace between Pakistan and India as well as a common recruiting tool used to recruit jihadis all over the world. Is Kashmir really worth all the money, animosity, and lives

Its upto pakistan to stop exporting terrorism, pakisthan has no priviliage to interfere even if there is any such issue. The violence is due to pakisthan, if pakisthan withdraws their terrorists there would be peace in kashmir.

Similarly the statement "give back Pakistan" is nonsensical in so many ways. Either you see immediately what and why is wrong with this statement and why it can never hope to be possible or you just don't have a clue.

likewise, it is non-sense to separate kashmir when formation of pakistan is considered.

 

[sthitpradnya]

abibi,
when i read your line about Jinnah wanting peace between hindus and muslims i was rolling on the floor laughing.the world knows how jinnah held the hindu community to ransom by commanding the muslims to observe "direct action day"
as for jinnah's personal view and the muslim league's official stand on the pakistan issue this is what jinnah had to say- "PAKISTAN WAS FORMED THE DAY THE FIRST ARAB SAILORS SET FOOT ON INDIAN SOIL" Care to comment on THIS effort of jinnah's for hindu-muslim unity?

 

[Bismillah]

You sicken me. You and nameless reject the atrocities that one side commits and focus pure negativity on the other. You and others like you are directly responsible for why there can never be peace in this region. Blaming one side never works, when you're committing the same deeds without batting an eye. This will be my last post in this thread, it is too frustrating to deal with people like nameless who pick and prod the most irrelevant points all the while insulting you in poor grammar.

In response here is the plan that Jinnah submitted and was rejected.

In 1927, Jinnah entered negotiations with Muslim and Hindu leaders on the issue of a future constitution, during the struggle against the all-British Simon Commission. The League wanted separate electorates while the Nehru Report favoured joint electorates. Jinnah personally opposed separate electorates, but then drafted compromises and put forth demands that he thought would satisfy both. These became known as the 14 points of Mr. Jinnah.[27] However, they were rejected by the Congress and other political parties.

In the 1937 elections to the Central Legislative Assembly, the League emerged as a competent party, capturing a significant number of seats under the Muslim electorate, but lost in the Muslim-majority Punjab, Sindh and the North-West Frontier Province.[32] Jinnah offered an alliance with the Congress – both bodies would face the British together, but the Congress had to share power, accept separate electorates and the League as the representative of India's Muslims. The latter two terms were unacceptable to the Congress, which had its own national Muslim leaders and membership and adhered to secularism. Even as Jinnah held talks with Congress president Rajendra Prasad,[33] Congress leaders suspected that Jinnah would use his position as a lever for exaggerated demands and obstruct government, and demanded that the League merge with the Congress.[34] The talks failed, and while Jinnah declared the resignation of all Congressmen from provincial and central offices in 1938 as a "Day of Deliverance" from Hindu domination,[35] some historians assert that he remained hopeful for an agreement.[33]

Here is a quote from Jinnah in regards to interfaith unity

There is no other solution. Now what shall we do? Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous, we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make. I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation. Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State. Jinnah, August 11, 1947 – presiding over the constituent assembly.

Muhammad Ali Jinnah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your malicious reference to Direct Action day is misleading. This was the intent and manner in which it was carried out

In his book The Great Divide, H V Hodson recounted, "The working committee followed up by calling on Muslims throughout India to observe 16th August as direct action day. On that Day meeting would be held all over the country to explain League's resolution. These meetings and processions passed off — as was manifestly the Central league leaders' intention — without more than commonplace and limited disturbance with one vast and tragic exception... what happened was more than anyone could have foreseen."[15]

The riots affected Muslims as much, and could be argued more so, as any one else. No one sane could have wanted this.

Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce as the Muslims in the beginning.[5][21] Field Marshal Viscount Wavell estimated that appreciably more Muslims than Hindus were killed.[25] Parties of one community would lie in wait, and as soon as they caught one of the other community, they would cut him to pieces.[25] Near military installations, static guards, forces specially trained to protect such installation, took over from police guards and a party of troops under Major Littleboy, the Assistant Provost-Marshal, did valuable work in the rescue operation for displaced and needy persons. Outside the military areas, the situation worsened hourly. Buses and taxis were charging about loaded with Sikhs and Hindus armed with swords, iron bars and firearms.[16] In later interviews some of the Hindu participants recounted

... I heard that two goalas (milkmen) had been killed in Beliaghata and riots have started in Boubazar ...;it was a very critical time for the country; the country had to be saved. If we become a part of Pakistan, we will be oppressed… so I called all my boys and said, this is the time we have to retaliate, and you have to answer brutality with brutality ... We were fighting those who attacked us ... We fought and killed them. So if we heard one murder has taken place, we committed ten more ... the ratio should be one to ten, that was the order to my boys. —Gopal Patha, BBC "50 years of India’s independence".

... I saw four trucks standing, all with dead bodies piled at least three feet high; like molasses in a sack, they were stacked on the trucks, blood and brain oozing out… that sight had a tremendous effect on me ... One murder would fetch ten rupees, and a wounding would bring five ...

—Jugal Chandra Ghosh, BBC "50 years of India’s independence"

 

[arimoff]

Actually I think you are wrong Abibi, there will never be peace as long as Muslims keep invading and at the same time keep crying that they are the innocent ones. everybody can't be wrong against you, it is you who are against everybody.

 

[Willamena]

everybody can't be wrong against you...

Yeah, they can. Nothing prevents it.

 

[arimoff]

Yeah, they can. Nothing prevents it.

Math does. what are the odds.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

abibi,
when i read your line about Jinnah wanting peace between hindus and muslims i was rolling on the floor laughing.the world knows how jinnah held the hindu community to ransom by commanding the muslims to observe "direct action day"
as for jinnah's personal view and the muslim league's official stand on the pakistan issue this is what jinnah had to say- "PAKISTAN WAS FORMED THE DAY THE FIRST ARAB SAILORS SET FOOT ON INDIAN SOIL" Care to comment on THIS effort of jinnah's for hindu-muslim unity?

I for one believe that Pakistan has good reason to believe they should have Kashmir. Still what would happen to the Buddhist minority in Ladakh? The thought scares me the whole special culture would be destroyed.