Has the atheist movement helped facilitate the rise of Islam?

[gsa]

The constant debates and debuking of Christianity by the atheist movement has considerable weakened the faith, especially in the West. But in this religious vacuum, Islam has come to rise. Atheists for the most part don't tackle Islam intellectually because it goes against their liberal fears of spreading Islamophobia.

Plenty of atheists (or "New Atheists," if you prefer) are highly critical of Islam. Perhaps you missed the recent Maher controversy? This is not new, either; Sam Harris has also been critical of Islam, and you can read much the same in Dawkins and others.

However, in the US at least, the focus on Christianity has nothing to do with aversion to Islam and everything to do with the prevalence of Christianity.

Even on the debate forums here very few atheists will debate muslims, with the exception of a few, while many atheists will debate even topics like consciousness with vigor.

I am not very familiar with the dynamics of this site, but I think that DIR blue rule allows for balkanization that discourages the kinds of engagements you may want to see. After all, they need Muslims to engage them in the green forum, right? And many might not be interested.

1) There are thousands of jihadists from the West, many from good homes and good educations who have gone to fight in the Middle East and will bring back their fanaticism and PTSD

Which has nothing to do with atheism, but probably has a great deal to do with psychology and alienation. I am not altogether convinced that these jihadists are much interested in religion; this Dutch guy "said his world was turned upside down by the endless gruesome videos of the Assad regime's brutal crackdown," not because he was disillusioned with the Enlightenment. Same with the American interviewed in this piece. And these are comparatively sane individuals; I would suggest that some of the less mentally stable converts are probably motivated by something other than visceral hatred of secularism.

2) There are billions of dollars poured into spreading Islam in the West from the Middle East oil states

Yes. So far, it hasn't encouraged mass conversion to Islam among most demographic groups, nor has it managed to radicalize American Muslims. Note that the situation in Europe is quite different, but then so are the political and socioeconomic realities of European Muslims.

3) Religious superiority reigns supreme in the Muslim world amongst the vast majority of Muslims who view the Quran as the literal and final word of God

Except not really. I mean I think that they pay lip service to it, but trust me there's pragmatic accommodation for all sorts of things in Muslim communities, including gay friends and relatives, intermarriage, alcohol use, etcetera. Also you are making too much of the Quran, and light of commentaries.

4) Islamic population continues to rise in Europe while secular and Christian populations continue to fall

Where is secularism falling in Europe? And are you referring to immigration and higher birth rates, or conversions?

While some people can argue that the Republicans have many Christian fundamentalists, their wars have been obviously about greed and resource acquisition and very little to do with the crusades.

Similarly, the politicization of Islam is not just or even primarily about religious beliefs.

I believe Islam should be tackled with the same fervour that atheists use to tackle Christianity, Judaism and other faiths, that it is the literal word of God. That is an incredibly dangerous concept, more dangerous than what any other religion preaches.

I don't see many atheists criticizing these religions across the board, actually, and I think there are far, far more atheist critics of Islam than of Judaism. Sensitivity to anti-semitism and/or support of Israel is a component of this, and the latter may even be guided by skepticism about Islam.

 

[Sapiens]

The constant debates and debuking of Christianity by the atheist movement has considerable weakened the faith, especially in the West.

If a few pointed headed intellectuals can, using nothing but words, so kick the stuffing out of Christianity that they can be said to have "considerable weakened the faith," one must ask if such a frail, feeble, flaccid, fragile faith should be permitted to live. Wouldst not be better to put it out of its misery like a badly wounded dog?

But in this religious vacuum, Islam has come to rise. Atheists for the most part don't tackle Islam intellectually because it goes against their liberal fears of spreading Islamophobia.

I guess you don't get out much? Or read much outside of the comics and graphic novels?

Even on the debate forums here very few atheists will debate muslims, with the exception of a few, while many atheists will debate even topics like consciousness with vigor.

Muslims don't come out to play ... I guess their afraid that if we can kick their older brothers' ****, theirs will be even easier.

This has led to pretty bad consequences:

1) There are thousands of jihadists from the West, many from good homes and good educations who have gone to fight in the Middle East and will bring back their fanaticism and PTSD
2) There are billions of dollars poured into spreading Islam in the West from the Middle East oil states
3) Religious superiority reigns supreme in the Muslim world amongst the vast majority of Muslims who view the Quran as the literal and final word of God
4) Islamic population continues to rise in Europe while secular and Christian populations continue to fall

While some people can argue that the Republicans have many Christian fundamentalists, their wars have been obviously about greed and resource acquisition and very little to do with the crusades.

I'd say that the Republicans have been the lackeys of the Saudis for a long, long, time. Some Democrats too.

I believe Islam should be tackled with the same fervour that atheists use to tackle Christianity, Judaism and other faiths, that it is the literal word of God. That is an incredibly dangerous concept, more dangerous than what any other religion preaches.

I'm happy to take on all comers.

 

[Bunyip]

The constant debates and debuking of Christianity by the atheist movement has considerable weakened the faith, especially in the West. But in this religious vacuum, Islam has come to rise. Atheists for the most part don't tackle Islam intellectually because it goes against their liberal fears of spreading Islamophobia.

I disagree. Most atheists do not attack Islam simply because it is less influential in the West. I have no fear of tackling Islam intellectually. I tend to attack only the creationist Christian right, because they are deliberately subverting science education and public policy.

Even on the debate forums here very few atheists will debate muslims, with the exception of a few, while many atheists will debate even topics like consciousness with vigor.

I have seen people here debate Moslems all of the time.

This has led to pretty bad consequences:

1) There are thousands of jihadists from the West, many from good homes and good educations who have gone to fight in the Middle East and will bring back their fanaticism and PTSD
2) There are billions of dollars poured into spreading Islam in the West from the Middle East oil states
3) Religious superiority reigns supreme in the Muslim world amongst the vast majority of Muslims who view the Quran as the literal and final word of God
4) Islamic population continues to rise in Europe while secular and Christian populations continue to fall

While some people can argue that the Republicans have many Christian fundamentalists, their wars have been obviously about greed and resource acquisition and very little to do with the crusades.

I believe Islam should be tackled with the same fervour that atheists use to tackle Christianity, Judaism and other faiths, that it is the literal word of God. That is an incredibly dangerous concept, more dangerous than what any other religion preaches.

 

[paarsurrey]

I disagree. Most atheists do not attack Islam simply because it is less influential in the West. I have no fear of tackling Islam intellectually. I tend to attack only the creationist Christian right, because they are deliberately subverting science education and public policy.

I have seen people here debate Moslems all of the time.

Yes, they do. I agree with you.

Why don't the Zoroastrians debate with others? Why they prefer to be secluded?

Regards

 

[Tiapan]

Originally Posted by shahz View Post
But in this religious vacuum, Islam has come to rise. Atheists for the most part don't tackle Islam intellectually because it goes against their liberal fears of spreading Islamophobia.

Education cures religion, any rise in Islam (or other religion) is a failure of states education program.

Cheers

 

[amorphous_constellation]

While some people can argue that the Republicans have many Christian fundamentalists, their wars have been obviously about greed and resource acquisition and very little to do with the crusades.

I believe Islam should be tackled with the same fervour that atheists use to tackle Christianity, Judaism and other faiths, that it is the literal word of God. That is an incredibly dangerous concept, more dangerous than what any other religion preaches.

Hey look, you're talking like we are reigning in supreme control here. We are not. We have not had an atheist president yet even, our country still swears oaths on a collection of ancient rambling psychopathy. We struggle to get what we want here, and although the back of the Church is broken, we are oftentimes squashed in the flailing. So please get off our back.

Tell you what, I actually support Israel. I support a Zoroastrian state, I support the division of Shia and Shiite. Want to know how that makes sense? Because I think the more division the better, that will dam it up good. And if the republican christians want to support Israel and fight endless wars in the middle-east, fine, we atheists have reason leave the ring, and that reason is to leave it to the actual boxers. Truth be told we are well outside of that ring and still gasping for air, like a fish just on the cusp of evolving into a land animal. But hopefully in the time, the whole world will be sucked into our scientific secular blackhole, just by looking at it.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Lots to say, but one take-away: that term, "Islamophobia" is fundamentally a lie, and anyone who uses it should be seen as being dishonest in that moment.

Or maybe that terminology was made up out of consideration for sweet and innocent Muslims like myself

It is really not fair to have others talk to and/or look down at me, without even trying to know who I really am, just because I'm a Muslim

 

[LuisDantas]

Or maybe that terminology was made up out of consideration for sweet and innocent Muslims like myself

It is really not fair to have others talk to and/or look down at me, without even trying to know who I really am, just because I'm a Muslim

Fair point, but IMO unrelated to the term itself.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Fair point, but IMO unrelated to the term itself.

Hmm...

I though Islamophobia meant the fear of Muslims and Islam just because they are Muslims and Islam.

Sorry about that

 

[LuisDantas]

Hmm...

I though Islamophobia meant the fear of Muslims and Islam just because they are Muslims and Islam.

Sorry about that

That is indeed a good question to make: what constitutes Islamophobia?

The question has often been raised without much consensus. There are those (me among them) who feel the concept is suspect and has been abused in order to justify undue restriction to fair criticisms.

 

[Bunyip]

Hmm...

I though Islamophobia meant the fear of Muslims and Islam just because they are Muslims and Islam.

Sorry about that

I thnk that much of the fear of Islam comes from the cultural practices that conflict with some very important and fundamental attributes of Western societies. Mocking religious and political figures is a VERY important and ancient tradition in Western societies - our freedom to mock is not just tomfoolery, it is a critical characteristic. So for many the restrictions on mocking or representing the Prophet in images are a very serious issue. Western newspaper cartoonists and comics mock our religious leaders and politicians mercilessly - and their freedom to do so is essential to Western democatic traditions. Another example is the burka, the idea of masking our women and thus rendering the anonymous is extremely confronting to many Westerners.

I'm saying this because I don't think that it is the religion that inspires fear or phobia, but that perhaps many Moslems underestimate just how confronting the burka and the prohibition against portraying the prophet are to Western sensibilities.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I thnk that much of the fear of Islam comes from the cultural practices that conflict with some very important and fundamental attributes of Western societies. Mocking religious and political figures is a VERY important and ancient tradition in Western societies - our freedom to mock is not just tomfoolery, it is a critical characteristic. So for many the restrictions on mocking or representing the Prophet in images are a very serious issue. Western newspaper cartoonists and comics mock our religious leaders and politicians mercilessly - and their freedom to do so is essential to Western democatic traditions. Another example is the burka, the idea of masking our women and thus rendering the anonymous is extremely confronting to many Westerners.

I'm saying this because I don't think that it is the religion that inspires fear or phobia, but that perhaps many Moslems underestimate just how confronting the burka and the prohibition against portraying the prophet are to Western sensibilities.

Well, I've never heard of Christophobia. It seems in my travels through the internet, that organization is mocked every few feet with neon lights. And actually in Christianity, it is doctrinal in part that they want non-believers to mock them, in order 'heap coals on their heads.' My guess is that in Islam they don't have that same mentality.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I thnk that much of the fear of Islam comes from the cultural practices that conflict with some very important and fundamental attributes of Western societies. Mocking religious and political figures is a VERY important and ancient tradition in Western societies - our freedom to mock is not just tomfoolery, it is a critical characteristic. So for many the restrictions on mocking or representing the Prophet in images are a very serious issue. Western newspaper cartoonists and comics mock our religious leaders and politicians mercilessly - and their freedom to do so is essential to Western democatic traditions. Another example is the burka, the idea of masking our women and thus rendering the anonymous is extremely confronting to many Westerners.

I'm saying this because I don't think that it is the religion that inspires fear or phobia, but that perhaps many Moslems underestimate just how confronting the burka and the prohibition against portraying the prophet are to Western sensibilities.

And I completely understand your point, and don't disagree with it (I kinda agree with it too). Muslims' cultures and customs do have the tendency to scare people indeed. I remember a story from the Islamic Heritage that in one battle the other side saw Muslims brush their teeth with special long and hard roots that has cleaning properties and a good smell (early tooth brushes and tooth paste design) and they though Muslims were sharpening their teeth to eat them which scared them . You know, different looks of people around the world could give weird impressions.

The thing is, I just don't see it is common sense, aside from fair as I mentioned before, to generalize such fear over all Muslims. In my stay here on RF, more that once I was told that I cleared some misconceptions about Muslims, including some generalizations. It is as if this Islamophobia terminology was right in place and it was cleared up to some people.

I want people to accept me for who I am, not what my religion is.

 

[Bunyip]

And I completely understand your point, and don't disagree with it (I kinda agree with it too). Muslims' cultures and customs do have the tendency to scare people indeed. I remember a story from the Islamic Heritage that in one battle the other side saw Muslims brush their teeth with special long and hard roots that has cleaning properties and a good smell (early tooth brushes and tooth paste design) and they though Muslims were sharpening their teeth to eat them which scared them . You know, different looks of people around the world could give weird impressions.

The thing is, I just don't see it is common sense, aside from fair as I mentioned before, to generalize such fear over all Muslims. In my stay here on RF, more that once I was told that I cleared some misconceptions about Muslims, including some generalizations. It is as if this Islamophobia terminology was right in place and it was cleared up to some people.

I want people to accept me for who I am, not what my religion is.

Exactly. It is just fear of the unknown. Moslems are not the bogey man.

 

[Sha'irullah]

As a former Muslim and an anti-theist I make it my duty to tackle Islam with utmost intellectualism. As I write this I am also writing a paper on Islamic violence and its inherent relevance upon the religion.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

what constitutes Islamophobia?

Phobias are fears which are largely irrational, but with Islam there seem to be grounds for rational fears too.

And talking of phobias, let's not forget this one: Atheophobia - RationalWiki

 

[paarsurrey]

I would like to add to my post #50.
Following is the prophecy of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi, which mentions the same phenomenon as described by the OP.

Quote:
"I, the claimant of both these dignities (the Promised Messiah and Imam Mahdi), have been among you for twenty-five years. Who then are you waiting for beside me? All these signs refer to the one who is present at the time of their manifestation, and not to someone of whom there is no trace in the world. It is a case of strange hard-heartedness. I simply fail to understand why people still await someone else when my claim has been affirmed by all the relevant signs and all opposition against me has been frustrated! It is true that I have not descended physically from heaven, nor have I come into the world to fight and cause bloodshed, but I have come for peace and am from God. I prophesy that after me and till the end of days, no Mahdi will ever appear from God who will create disturbance in the world through war and bloodshed, nor will there be any Messiah who will descend physically from heaven. You had better bid farewell to both these notions. These are vain desires which the people of this generation will carry with them to the grave. No 102 Essence of Islam—IV Messiah will descend and no blood-thirsty Mahdi will appear. He who was to come has come, and I am that one fulfilling God's promise. He who does not accept me, fights God for having sent me. [Majmu‘ah Ishtiharat, vol. 3, p. 520]
Why do you wonder if I have come as the Messiah; the breeze of the spring carry the fragrance of the Messiah.
There is great eagerness in heaven in support of the call of truth; Angels are descending upon the well disposed.
The independent thinkers of Europe are turning in this direction;
the pulse of the spiritually dead has begun to beat suddenly.
The wise are saying goodbye to the Trinity; they are devoting themselves to the Fountain of Tauhid.
An elegant flower has blossomed in the garden of the Ummah; An intoxicating fragrance is flowing from the garden.
[Brahin-e-Ahmadiyyah, Part V, Ruhani Khaza’in, vol. 21, pp. 131-133]" Unquote
https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Essence-4.pdf Pages 101-102​

Yes, the enlightenment in the West has benefited the rise of Islam as mythical Christianity could not face reason and rationality.
Regards