Hate speech in the Quran and Bible. Should it be tolerated/accepted?

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If we censor one book, what's to stop us from censoring anything we don't like?

I've been talking about this topic for a long time. The Bible, in my view, is not just "one book." (Nor is the Qur'an, of course, nor other scripture.) It (and they) occupy a different place in the minds of believers.

I've long had a very real, very serious dislike for apologists -- such as William Lane Craig -- who actually go to a great deal of trouble to explain why the genocide of the Canaanites was "right." I've even argued with other Christians (there are a couple here in RF) who have argued that the killing of infants was right because "they would have grown up to be just like their parents -- totally evil." This, of course, is purest nonsense -- nurture plays as much role in how children turn out as nature does.

Even the teachings about hell, in my view, lead the faithful into error. I remember some years ago watching a TV special with Christiane Amanpour about fundamentalism in the US, in which she interviewed a young girl of about 8 or 9. When asked what will happen to the non-Christian kids in her school, she answers with perfect composure and no sense of irony, "they go to hell."

I can tell you I found that chilling.

 

[74x12]

I've long had a very real, very serious dislike for apologists -- such as William Lane Craig -- who actually go to a great deal of trouble to explain why the genocide of the Canaanites was "right." I've even argued with other Christians (there are a couple here in RF) who have argued that the killing of infants was right because "they would have grown up to be just like their parents -- totally evil." This, of course, is purest nonsense -- nurture plays as much role in how children turn out as nature does.

Let me try to explain to you why you're seeing this wrong. Are Christians currently going around using those verses to justify killing Canaanites? Of course not. Some rabid Zionist types might use those verses to justify oppressing Palestinians but by and large no Christian thinks that way.

The point here is that you can get that out of the scripture if you wan; but if you take whole Bible and really try to understand it then it will produce good in you. It will produce virtue.

Even the teachings about hell, in my view, lead the faithful into error. I remember some years ago watching a TV special with Christiane Amanpour about fundamentalism in the US, in which she interviewed a young girl of about 8 or 9. When asked what will happen to the non-Christian kids in her school, she answers with perfect composure and no sense of irony, "they go to hell."

So do you think that means she wants them to go to hell? There is a difference between believing someone goes to hell and wanting them to go to hell. This is why "Go to hell!" is a popular phrase used to curse at someone. That's why hell is a curse word really. Because we all know whether Christian or not that; it's not nice to want someone to "go to hell" ==. In fact according to the Bible not even God wants people to go to hell.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Let me try to explain to you why you're seeing this wrong. Are Christians currently going around using those verses to justify killing Canaanites? Of course not. Some rabid Zionist types might use those verses to justify oppressing Palestinians but by and large no Christian thinks that way.

The point here is that you can get that out of the scripture if you wan; but if you take whole Bible and really try to understand it then it will produce good in you. It will produce virtue.

So do you think that means she wants them to go to hell? There is a difference between believing someone goes to hell and wanting them to go to hell. This is why "Go to hell!" is a popular phrase used to curse at someone. That's why hell is a curse word really. Because we all know whether Christian or not that; it's not nice to want someone to "go to hell" ==. In fact according to the Bible not even God wants people to go to hell.

Your apologetics move me even less than William Lane Craig's do. Sorry.

One thing I know for certain about humans -- our beliefs inform our behaviours. What could have brought "Christian" Americans to lynch 2,000 black people (out of 6,500 killed) between 1865 and 1950? I could hate someone right down to my socks, but nothing in me could EVER bring me to try to kill them. Nothing.

 

[74x12]

Your apologetics move me even less than William Lane Craig's do. Sorry.

One thing I know for certain about humans -- our beliefs inform our behaviours. What could have brought "Christian" Americans to lynch 2,000 black people (out of 6,500 killed) between 1865 and 1950? I could hate someone right down to my socks, but nothing in me could EVER bring me to try to kill them. Nothing.

I don't think they're Christians.

Let me ask you this.

What moved Christians to support the civil war in order to free slaves? What moved Christians to make the underground railroad to free slaves? What moved Christians to write songs like "The truth is Marching on" about the civil war being won by the Union?

For that matter even "Amazing Grace" arguably the most famous protestant hymn in the modern world; was written by a former slaver who repented and became a Christian.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I don't think they're Christians.

No true Scotsman, argument? Nah!

Let me ask you this.

What moved Christians to support the civil war in order to free slaves? What moved Christians to make the underground railroad to free slaves? What moved Christians to write songs like "The truth is Marching on" about the civil war being won by the Union?

You may have forgotten that President Lincoln was beset by Christian pastors from both sides on the question. In the end, his response was "“I am approached with the most opposite opinions and advice, and that by religious men, who are equally certain that they represent the Divine will. I hope it will not be irreverent for me to say that if it is probable that God would reveal His will to others, on a point so connected with my duty, it might be supposed that He would reveal it directly to me."

For that matter even "Amazing Grace" arguably the most famous protestant hymn in the modern world; was written by a former slaver who repented and became a Christian.

I have neither the time nor the heart to look up all the music written by opposing sides, but feel pretty sure there was lots by both. And whether one became more famous than others may, I think, be attributed more to its musical qualities than the bona fides of its composer.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Christianity , like Islam, are very bigoted Religions that display/portray the epitome of hatred for infidels/heretics/pagans/unbelievers etc. (At least , total hatred for them if they die in that state without converting). You don't torture people forever and ever, unless you severely hate them.

It's why I left Christianity. I saw the bigotry and hate constantly. Just go to a Christian website and tell them you pray to the "Queens of Heaven", and see what some of the responses are, about the Kami I cherish being Demons.

Look at all the Biblical verses where God justifies complete genocide against people based on ethnicity or different Religious beliefs.

It's just wrong and goes against my conscience!

Threatening to torture people for ever, most of the world even, is worse than any form of hate speech, and it is very intrinsic to the nature and essence of Christianity.

To what extent should good people who don't like hatred and bigotry, take a stand against the hate-speech and bigotry in the Bible and Quran?

A lot of people are unaware of it, until it is brought to their attention. Some of the gruesome tortures amputations of limbs, crucifixion, and mutilations in the Quran and burning of infidels are so bad, it fills me with darkness to read them.

If you want the quotes and verses, I can provide them, or you can Google it.

I consider Muhammad and his daughter Fatima , peace be upon them, to be my close friends, but I can't object more to some of what is attributed to the Prophet, and his violent aggressive lifestyle, where he personally decapitated people and destroyed everything sacred to Polytheists, repeatedly condemning them to eternal torture in Quranic verses, destroying their shrines that are sacred to them, robbing people of basic liberties, and beyond.

Saudi Arabia, the Capitol of Islam, is run by an extremely bigoted regime where you won't find a single synagogue, Church, or Polytheist temple. It's forbidden and outlawed.

Jewish (as well as Christian and other non-Muslim) religious services are prohibited from being held in Saudi Arabia. That is total tyranny and bigotry!

I believe the Prophet was an orphan with a tough life who had nobody, and did indeed love God, and I love him, I just disagree with some of his behaviors.

I have met many orphans growing up and as an adult in jails, institutions, and ghettos, and they can be very violent angry people compared to those who had parents who nurtured, cared for, and gave them a healthy environment , with good role models.

But should we really be tolerant of pure hatred, bigotry, and hate-speech in the Bible and Quranic text??

The only thing necessary for hatred and bigotry to triumph in our world is for good people to remain silent, passive , and do nothing. Is that right or wrong?

In the poll, please choose the answer that you lean most towards.

I'm firmly against editing ancient manuscripts. You accept the Bible, the quran, and whatever esle, the way they are written. If you don't like this or that in them, then you are under no obligation to believe it. But chagne the text of the manuscript? NOOOOO. i'm also greatly opposed to giving the Bible "more inclusive language" for example.

 

[Spiderman]

No it never did. But you forget that Satan twists scriptures to tempt people just like he tried to do with Jesus Christ in Luke ch. 4. But Jesus only response was to quote other scriptures. Because as Jesus said man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God shall man live.

So Satan's trick has always been to take scriptures out of context. But the proper response to the lies of Satan is that man should believe the testimony of the entire Word of God not just pick and choose.

The Bible for it's day was actually anti-slavery. When the new Testament was written slavery was a fact of life. There was a reason why Christianity was so popular among the slave class of the Roman empire.

Paul even says "be ye not slaves of men" (1 Corinthians 7:23) So although he did not ever encourage violent revolution; yet he taught that if you could obtain freedom from slavery then you should do so.

So the Bible never outrights condemns slavery because to do so would be a revolutionary act in those days; Christianity was not given for violent overthrows of the world order. It was given to save people's souls out of the world. The Bible is not given to save the world but to save people out of it.

But it does discourage slavery and there is no real justification for the existence of slavery if you believe what Jesus really taught which is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Jesus will judge fairly based on their deeds and he will show mercy when he can.

Well you condemn it as hate speech and there are laws already existent against hate speech.

I wasn't speaking of "hate speech" in a legal term.

I was saying it in the sense that torturing a group of people forever and condemning most of the world as "unsaved" , and condemning people to be tortured forever for not accepting Jesus, is pure hatred in it's ugliest forms and pure cruelty!

Jesus said, "unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man, you have no life in you".

That is pure bigotry and leads countless people to judge and condemn people who don't eat Christ's flesh and drink his blood.

It stirs up countless judgemental bigots who think people that don't believe what they do are spiritually dead and going to a lake of fire if they don't repent.

It's depressing, disgusting, and paints up a cruel, narcissistic, hateful bigot for a God. Look up the definition of the word "bigot".

The Bible divided people and turns them against one another. Jesus said, "I come not to bring peace but a sword".

I have seen this repeatedly online and offline! You will lose this argument, mate.

Plenty holy men in Scripture owned slaves too, and God was just fine with it. Scripture even says you can keep virgins of enemy cities as sex slaves.

The Christians who were slave-abolitionists were not following the Bible in that respect. The Bible sanctions slavery.

Jesus himself was racist and referred to a woman and her ethnicity as "dogs".

You will lose this debate my friend.

 

[Spiderman]

I'm firmly against editing ancient manuscripts. You accept the Bible, the quran, and whatever esle, the way they are written. If you don't like this or that in them, then you are under no obligation to believe it. But chagne the text of the manuscript? NOOOOO. i'm also greatly opposed to giving the Bible "more inclusive language" for example.

I'm not saying anything about editing anything.

I'm saying take a stand against pure hatred and bigotry.

 

[Aštra’el]

There is no “should” or “should not”.

It doesn’t matter to me if people find the Bible (or any holy book) offensive, or “hateful”. It doesn’t matter to me how much blood has been spilled in the name of my God(s) or your God(s). It matters to me how people choose to utilize their holy books now, in this time and place, and if it gives them the strength/ motivation/ inspiration to help make their dreams a reality.

I can find strength in any holy book. Any religion. It is possible for others to do the same.

No, I do not feel the Bible “should be” banned, or that it “should not” be. Those phrases are useless to me. I can say that I am glad it is not banned, and it brings me great satisfaction knowing that it is out there empowering people, and helping people connect with God.

 

[Spiderman]

There is no “should” or “should not”.

It doesn’t matter to me if people find the Bible (or any holy book) offensive, or “hateful”. It doesn’t matter to me how much blood has been spilled in the name of my God(s) or your God(s). It matters to me how people choose to utilize their holy books now, in this time and place, and if it gives them the strength/ motivation/ inspiration to help make their dreams a reality.

I can find strength in any holy book. Any religion. It is possible for others to do the same.

No, I do not feel the Bible “should be” banned, or that it “should not” be. Those phrases are useless to me. I can say that I am glad it is not banned, and it brings me great satisfaction knowing that it is out there empowering people, and helping people connect with God.

Okay people, I'm going to say it for about the fifth time, I never asked if we should ban or edit books.

I'm against both banning or editing.

I'm saying take a stand against hatred and bigotry contained in the books.

 

[74x12]

No true Scotsman, argument? Nah!

Well, I don't deny they had a veneer of Christianity but that doesn't mean I consider them as such. Since you're asking me; I say they weren't.

You may have forgotten that President Lincoln was beset by Christian pastors from both sides on the question. In the end, his response was "“I am approached with the most opposite opinions and advice, and that by religious men, who are equally certain that they represent the Divine will. I hope it will not be irreverent for me to say that if it is probable that God would reveal His will to others, on a point so connected with my duty, it might be supposed that He would reveal it directly to me."

So he to thought himself led by God to oppose slavery.

I have neither the time nor the heart to look up all the music written by opposing sides, but feel pretty sure there was lots by both. And whether one became more famous than others may, I think, be attributed more to its musical qualities than the bona fides of its composer.

That's true. But you were painting the picture that Christianity was the very thing keeping slavery going; when it's actually more probable that Christianity is the reason it was ended at all. Sure it is true that those who wanted to retain slaves found excuses to do so (confirmation bias); but the Christians who didn't have slaves themselves saw things more clearly. I mean it is pretty clear from Jesus teachings that slavery is not so good.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm not saying anything about editing anything.

I'm saying take a stand against pure hatred and bigotry.

Well, that's sort of a question with an obvious answer.

BTW, could you give an example of one of these statements that are "pure hatred and bigotry?"

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Christianity , like Islam, are very bigoted Religions that display/portray the epitome of hatred for infidels/heretics/pagans/unbelievers etc. (At least , total hatred for them if they die in that state without converting). You don't torture people forever and ever, unless you severely hate them.

It's why I left Christianity. I saw the bigotry and hate constantly. Just go to a Christian website and tell them you pray to the "Queens of Heaven", and see what some of the responses are, about the Kami I cherish being Demons.

Look at all the Biblical verses where God justifies complete genocide against people based on ethnicity or different Religious beliefs.

It's just wrong and goes against my conscience!

Threatening to torture people for ever, most of the world even, is worse than any form of hate speech, and it is very intrinsic to the nature and essence of Christianity.

To what extent should good people who don't like hatred and bigotry, take a stand against the hate-speech and bigotry in the Bible and Quran?

A lot of people are unaware of it, until it is brought to their attention. Some of the gruesome tortures amputations of limbs, crucifixion, and mutilations in the Quran and burning of infidels are so bad, it fills me with darkness to read them.

If you want the quotes and verses, I can provide them, or you can Google it.

I consider Muhammad and his daughter Fatima , peace be upon them, to be my close friends, but I can't object more to some of what is attributed to the Prophet, and his violent aggressive lifestyle, where he personally decapitated people and destroyed everything sacred to Polytheists, repeatedly condemning them to eternal torture in Quranic verses, destroying their shrines that are sacred to them, robbing people of basic liberties, and beyond.

Saudi Arabia, the Capitol of Islam, is run by an extremely bigoted regime where you won't find a single synagogue, Church, or Polytheist temple. It's forbidden and outlawed.

Jewish (as well as Christian and other non-Muslim) religious services are prohibited from being held in Saudi Arabia. That is total tyranny and bigotry!

I believe the Prophet was an orphan with a tough life who had nobody, and did indeed love God, and I love him, I just disagree with some of his behaviors.

I have met many orphans growing up and as an adult in jails, institutions, and ghettos, and they can be very violent angry people compared to those who had parents who nurtured, cared for, and gave them a healthy environment , with good role models.

But should we really be tolerant of pure hatred, bigotry, and hate-speech in the Bible and Quranic text??

The only thing necessary for hatred and bigotry to triumph in our world is for good people to remain silent, passive , and do nothing. Is that right or wrong?

In the poll, please choose the answer that you lean most towards.

It is the extremist groups who interpret the Quran to say, act with violence and hatred toward others. But many also believe this is their misinterpretation and misapplication of the Holy Book.
So, I would say we should strongly oppose these groups and their misinterpretation.

 

[Spiderman]

Well, that's sort of a question with an obvious answer.

BTW, could you give an example of one of these statements that are "pure hatred and bigotry?"

Those whose names are not written in the book of life shall be thrown into the lake of fire.


"Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man you have no life in you"

Google the threats involving wailing and gnashing of teeth in the next life.

Google "genocide in the Bible"

Or how about God hardening Pharoah's heart and then murdering the first born of Egypt (murdering innocent babies and children) for his hardness of heart.

How about when God murdered over 99.9% of people, drowning babies and children and pregnant women in a flood .

Drowning is a very scary miserable way to die.

I'm on a phone. You can Google it. When I get to a computer I can provide exact verses. Would you like that?

The Bible , the New Testament, condemns to hell those who do not accept Jesus as Lord and savior. That is bigotry. Look up the definition of bigotry.

The Bible and Koran indicate the suffering of damned souls is forever. That is total cruelty and hatred!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That's true. But you were painting the picture that Christianity was the very thing keeping slavery going; when it's actually more probable that Christianity is the reason it was ended at all. Sure it is true that those who wanted to retain slaves found excuses to do so (confirmation bias); but the Christians who didn't have slaves themselves saw things more clearly. I mean it is pretty clear from Jesus teachings that slavery is not so good.

Which you must admit seems to imply that what they claimed to believe didn't actually have a lot to do with how they behaved?

In other words, we invent whatever story supports what we're doing and want to do.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Those whose names are not written in the book of life shall be thrown into the lake of fire.


"Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man you have no life in you"

while I agree that this is an offensive statement, very gross, it is not hateful of anyone. Try again.

Google the threats involving wailing and gnashing of teeth in the next life.

Again, while I also object to this, it is not an example of something that is hateful of anyone. Try again.

Google "genocide in the Bible"

Now in this case I am on your side. I carry out the very Biblical tradition of arguing with god when it comes to this.

Or how about God hardening Pharoah's heart and then murdering the first born of Egypt (murdering innocent babies and children) for his hardness of heart.

Pointing out actions of God, like people dying (which happens every day, constantly), you cannot say that this is an example of people being told to hate egyptians or to kill their first born children. Try again.

How about when God murdered over 99.9% of people, drowning babies and children and pregnant women in a flood .

1. You realize that this never happened, right? That this is a myth? The object of the story is simply to show that God hates sin. And again, you are depicting acts of God, not advice being given to men. Try again.

The Bible , the New Testament, condemns to hell those who do not accept Jesus as Lord and savior. That is bigotry. Look up the definition of bigotry.

Well, I'm not Christians, so I'm one of the ones they are condemning, and while I think it is a stupid idea, I would not say it is hateful. It is an attempt to depict God as just (personally I think the attempt fails, but that IS the idea). There is no advice being given here for Chrsitians to do anything harmful to non-Christians. I think it is fast becoming obvious that you are an ultra sensitive person. Perhaps you just need to nurture a little more tolerance, and allow people to have their beliefs.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Which you must admit seems to imply that what they claimed to believe didn't actually have a lot to do with how they behaved?

In other words, we invent whatever story supports what we're doing and want to do.

He is correct. If there had been no Christianity, there would have been no end to slavery. Give credit where credit is due.

 

[Spiderman]

while I agree that this is an offensive statement, very gross, it is not hateful of anyone. Try again.

Again, while I also object to this, it is not an example of something that is hateful of anyone. Try again.

Now in this case I am on your side. I carry out the very Biblical tradition of arguing with god when it comes to this.

Pointing out actions of God, like people dying (which happens every day, constantly), you cannot say that this is an example of people being told to hate egyptians or to kill their first born children. Try again.

1. You realize that this never happened, right? That this is a myth? The object of the story is simply to show that God hates sin. And again, you are depicting acts of God, not advice being given to men. Try again.

Well, I'm not Christians, so I'm one of the ones they are condemning, and while I think it is a stupid idea, I would not say it is hateful. It is an attempt to depict God as just (personally I think the attempt fails, but that IS the idea). There is no advice being given here for Chrsitians to do anything harmful to non-Christians. I think it is fast becoming obvious that you are an ultra sensitive person. Perhaps you just need to nurture a little more tolerance, and allow people to have their beliefs.

How is willing someone to be tortured forever not hatred for the people being tortured by the Deity or people who support this cruelty?

And I admire you for arguing with Hashem over the genocides. It is good to argue with God. Israel means "contender with God".

Bottom line is, Hundreds of millions of people are oppressed and robbed of basic liberties in our current world thanks to Abrahamic texts and the attitude is one of bigotry in the Quran and Bible.

But Jews are as a general rule quite chill and aren't telling people "convert or burn in hell!".

 

[Spiderman]

He is correct. If there had been no Christianity, there would have been no end to slavery. Give credit where credit is due.

That is so kind and thoughtful of you to say that.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How is willing someone to be tortured forever not hatred for the people being tortured by the Deity or people who support this cruelty?

First, hyou should know that I don't personally believe in any sort of eternal hell, especially not to punish those who merely make mistakes of what they believe.

However, the whole purpose of the heaven/hell afterlife thing, is to create a way for justice to be served when the world we live in is profoundly unjust -- the wicked prosper and the good suffer. The idea is that someday, people will be held accountable for their wrongs.

Now, I find the idea of an eternal unending hell to be a bit much. What possible sin would deserve such a punishment? But I would not call such a belief hateful. I'm sorry, I just can't go along with you on this one.

Bottom line is, Hundreds of millions of people are oppressed and robbed of basic liberties in our current world thanks to Abrahamic texts and the attitude is one of bigotry in the Quran and Bible.

That is just not true. First of all, I don't see Jews and Christians defending any sort of oppression using their Bible. There are extremist Muslim sects, very evil ones, the Taliban, ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc., but these are not typical of Islam. You are the one making the sweeping generalization and being bigotted here. Just sit for a while -- don't ansewr my post yet. Think for a few minutes on all the good things that the Abrahamic faiths do, from feeding the poor to building hospitals. Think about how the abolitionist movement was drivien by the Christian religion. Think about people like Martin Luther King Jr got his inspiration for the civil rights movement from his Chrsitian faith. You need to see both sides of this.