Having your period? Then go to the back of the class and sit by yourself

[Jayhawker Soule]

They are there because they want to be and they are separated out of reasons having to do with modesty and the weakness of men.

And out of respect for that modesty, and out of tradition. To paint them as hated victims is egregiously stupid and self-serving.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You were not being asked. Your views are clear.

If you want to ensure that nobody else responds to your questions, you're free to use the forum's private message function.

Toilet arrangements are discriminated on the basis of gender. Would you consider them to violate policy?

Since the Ontario Human Rights Code specifically declares things like segregated washrooms and changerooms to not be gender discrimination, and since any school board policy would have a lower status than the Code, no, I wouldn't.

You do realise you're giving them special treatment? Shifting the entire schools scheduel for them, even if you say "Oh well, dem kiddies can all go an have dey fun, so its all equal" that doesn't change the fact that their presence has changed the school as a whole.

There is such a thing as reasonable accommodation. If we can adjust an arbitrary decision (e.g. the timing of lunch, which at many schools seems to just be drawn out of a hat) in a way that benefits some students while disadvantaging none, why shouldn't we?

It's when accommodation requires us to bend or break the rules, or to go to extraordinary lengths, that it becomes unreasonable.

Nobody's asking Muslim students to stop being Muslim during school hours, but there does have to be an acknowledgement of the fact that they are in a public school setting, and that there are implications that go along with this, and that there are limits on what is appropriate in a public school.

Who says they are inferior? This is the same thought projected onto Jewish women. "We are inferior because, because, because..." I don't feel inferior to my husband. he doesn't force me to do anything i don't want to do and neither does he manipulate me into doing what he wants me to do. Many Muslim women are the same.
How is being a woman automatically place them into an inferior position?

And the seats are just as comfortable at the back of the bus, right?

The implication, though, in your posts, throughout, is that public = secular, and that's simply incorrect. If that were the case, we would all be non-religious.

Well, no. "Secular" does not equal "non-religious".

It's the case in Canada that we have secular public office, but we still have the ability to fund public religious programs. Secular bias can be discriminatory.

Canada isn't perfectly secular. We still do things like fund Catholic schools while also barring Catholics from the position of head of state.

However, we do have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms that requires equal protection and benefit of the law to all people regardless of gender, religion, and several other characteristics. This issue first hit the press when Hindu parents protested that their children weren't receiving the same consideration from the school that their Muslim classmates received. How do you think this should be addressed?

How can a Muslim student and a Hindu student receive equal benefit of the law (which normally is considered to include benefit of government institutions) when the Muslim student gets special, extraordinary religious accommodation and the Hindu student doesn't?

 

[Rakhel]

Penguin, can you answer the question or not?

How does being born a woman automatically make them inferior?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Penguin, can you answer the question or not?

How does being born a woman automatically make them inferior?

I don't understand what you're asking. Women aren't inferior.

 

[Rakhel]

not based on some of the responses coming from the "Progressive" movement. there are many in this thread that are projecting this idea that they are being forced to participate and are being force to sit at the back of the class.
Hell, when I went to school, the teacher wasn't putting the smart students at the front, they were putting the less intelligent students in the front seats. So they could pay attention and the teacher could better assist them in their studies.
The principle is the same. Women don't feel inferior because they are sitting in back. It is the men's stupidity that think we are.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The principle is the same. Women don't feel inferior because they are sitting in back. It is the men's stupidity that think we are.

Is it any less reasonable to say that women having to sit at the back of a prayer service creates a situation of inferiority than it is to say that "coloured" people having to sit at the back of a bus does the same thing? Was Rosa Parks all upset about nothing?

However, as I've repeatedly pointed out here, this is a separate issue to the main point. Even if the arrangement was one that all the Muslim students loved, it's still not right for the school to have a double standard.

 

[Father Heathen]

Penguin, can you answer the question or not?

How does being born a woman automatically make them inferior?

They are not, but that is something the abrahamic faiths assert.

And no one is implying that women are hated by the faithful, but that the religious view is that they are to be submissive and obedient to men.

 

[Rakhel]

you right it is a separate issue that isn't even addressed in NYC(Most of the black people here would rather sit at the back of the bus)
But i don't see a double standard. unless you want to talk about the school providing a place fro Muslims to worship and not for Christians, Jews, and Hindus. But then you would have the Atheists complaining about the unfairness attributed to them because they are being left out. Followed by the idea that prayer is being forced in school even though they weren't force to participate, followed by....
a never ending cycle because someone who isn't even associated with the community, and doesn't even understand the cultural whatnot, is throwing a fit

 

[Rakhel]

They are not, but that is something the abrahamic faiths assert.

And no one is implying that women are hated by the faithful, but that the religious view is that they are to be submissive and obedient to men.

again, another assumption place by those who can't or don't want to understand.
I could say it til I am blue in the face. It is the ahteist's position that religious woman are made to feel inferior.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

you right it is a separate issue that isn't even addressed in NYC(Most of the black people here would rather sit at the back of the bus)

As would I, but I'd still object to someone telling me that I had to sit at the back of the bus or the room because I'm white, or because I'm male.

But i don't see a double standard. unless you want to talk about the school providing a place fro Muslims to worship and not for Christians, Jews, and Hindus.

Yes, there is that double standard, but I was talking about the school board's rules against gender discrimination. Except for certain narrow circumstances like washrooms and changerooms (which are specifically dealt with by the law), the school board's policy is that discrimination on the basis of gender is unacceptable. However, in this case, we have a situation where gender discrimination is occurring in a school and the administration isn't doing anything to stop it. The school board has a policy, and this policy is being violated. The question of whether the students involved mind that it's being violated doesn't change this fact.

But then you would have the Atheists complaining about the unfairness attributed to them because they are being left out.

And they'd have a valid point. Why should religious beliefs get special treatment while deeply held non-religious beliefs do not?

Followed by the idea that prayer is being forced in school even though they weren't force to participate,

I'm not sure I follow you on this one.

followed by....
a never ending cycle because someone who isn't even associated with the community, and doesn't even understand the cultural whatnot, is throwing a fit

What do you mean by "someone who isn't even associated with the community"? I grew up in Toronto and I've lived in the Toronto area my entire life. It is very much my community.

 

[Draka]

9-10th_Penguin, would you ever care to address any of the 3 times I've pointed out that the separation has nothing to do with any perceived inferiority but the Islamic call for modesty AND the supposed weakness of men?

Let me ask you, if you were a Muslim woman would you want to be bent over with your butt square in front of some random guy's face? As a man, would you find yourself still in the correct frame of mind to be all humble and godly during prayer if you looked straight ahead at some random woman's behind? We're not talking about sitting in pews at a church where you only see the backs of heads. We're talking about pretty much looking at a whole lot of backsides. Not every man can keep his mind from wandering certain places it shouldn't. By not having the women in front of or intermingled with the men it lessens that possibility. It has to do with focus and modesty. Have you ever thought for a moment that perhaps the women don't want to be in front of the men? That they're behind the men because that's preferable to them? That they wouldn't be comfortable with men right behind them? Would you still insist on integration if you realized the women didn't want to be integrated?

 

[Willamena]

Well, no. "Secular" does not equal "non-religious".


Canada isn't perfectly secular. We still do things like fund Catholic schools while also barring Catholics from the position of head of state.

However, we do have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms that requires equal protection and benefit of the law to all people regardless of gender, religion, and several other characteristics. This issue first hit the press when Hindu parents protested that their children weren't receiving the same consideration from the school that their Muslim classmates received. How do you think this should be addressed?

How can a Muslim student and a Hindu student receive equal benefit of the law (which normally is considered to include benefit of government institutions) when the Muslim student gets special, extraordinary religious accommodation and the Hindu student doesn't?

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms applies to governments. The secularity of governments does not trickle down to the public. That's all I needed to say.

I've no say in the ethical issue of one group claiming favourism for another group.

 

[Willamena]

Is it any less reasonable to say that women having to sit at the back of a prayer service creates a situation of inferiority than it is to say that "coloured" people having to sit at the back of a bus does the same thing? Was Rosa Parks all upset about nothing?

However, as I've repeatedly pointed out here, this is a separate issue to the main point. Even if the arrangement was one that all the Muslim students loved, it's still not right for the school to have a double standard.

It's all in how you paint it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

9-10th_Penguin, would you ever care to address any of the 3 times I've pointed out that the separation has nothing to do with any perceived inferiority but the Islamic call for modesty AND the supposed weakness of men?

Let me ask you, if you were a Muslim woman would you want to be bent over with your butt square in front of some random guy's face? As a man, would you find yourself still in the correct frame of mind to be all humble and godly during prayer if you looked straight ahead at some random woman's behind? We're not talking about sitting in pews at a church where you only see the backs of heads. We're talking about pretty much looking at a whole lot of backsides. Not every man can keep his mind from wandering certain places it shouldn't. By not having the women in front of or intermingled with the men it lessens that possibility. It has to do with focus and modesty. Have you ever thought for a moment that perhaps the women don't want to be in front of the men? That they're behind the men because that's preferable to them? That they wouldn't be comfortable with men right behind them? Would you still insist on integration if you realized the women didn't want to be integrated?

If everyone is free to stand where they please, then the girls who don't want to stand in front of the boys can still stand in the back, and the boys who don't want to stand behind a girl can stand at the front.

And to top it all off, if a guy is uncomfortable standing in front of girls or if one of the girls finds guys' rear ends too distracting, then they can be accommodated, too.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms applies to governments. The secularity of governments does not trickle down to the public. That's all I needed to say.

Actually, many of its provisions apply to everyone, but that's beside the point, since the provisions that apply to government do apply to government-run public schools.

 

[Sahar]

"A school should be a safe space for all children. Not a place where 12-year-old girls are treated as second class citizens, and certainly not a place where menstruating girls are ostracized as "unclean" and sent to the back of the "prayer-cafeteria" as third class citizens!

Yes, you read that correctly. Valley Park Middle School in Toronto allows Muslim students to use the cafeteria for Friday prayer, but has decided to segregate their students based on gender. Seventh and eighth grade girls pray behind the boys, separated by tables, while participating girls who have their period must sit on their own in the back of the room, not partaking in the prayer."

Please sign this petition to call up the Toronto School District Board to respect gender equity and not shame girls for menstruating.
source
​

And they need a petition to stop embarrassing discrimination?

I like the sensational formulation of this whole thing!

Nothing in Islam or in Muslims' schools is called "unclean women". There are certain conditions that nullify ritual ablution that is necessary for the prayer, blood of menstruation is one of them.

Menstruating women/girls don't pray. Anyone who doesn't pray (menstruating or not) can't just sit in between the lines of the prayers. They can sit anywhere else in the mosque where they don't disturb the prayers order.

 

[Sahar]

I can see how things progress and end up with banning hijab or banning the building of minarets, etc. And they are all start with hate and anti-Muslim feelings then with some sensational propaganda, you can win more voices.

Menstruating girls are unclean and third class citizens, sign the petition!! What is this rubbish?

What does sign the petition really mean?
Does it mean the school must not allow the Muslim students to pray?
Does it mean the school must force the students to pray in a different order?
Does it mean the school must force the girls who don't pray to pray?

:sarcastic

 

[Sahar]

I said I do not believe there is any basis in it, and if there is no religious basis in something, it doesn't need to be treated as such.

Nothing more.

I don't understand. If there was a religious basis for it, you would be okay with allowing it?

In this particular case, since the worship is occurring on school property during school hours, the following board policies would deal with it:

Policy P031 - Human Rights

[/left]
Policy P044 - Code of Conduct

​

Policy P051 - Safe Schools

I see two issues here:

- So... in your mind, the arrangement of "separate but equal" can actually result in equal treatment, free of discrimination?

- Regardless of whether the outcomes for boys and girls are equal in value, you can't segregate on the basis of gender without discriminating on the basis of gender. The school's policies address not only equitable treatment, but also discrimination itself.​

When you "segregate" by rows specific for boys and rows specific for girls and both perform the same acts of worship, you discriminate against who exactly?

Does this mean bathrooms specific for girls only and for boys only are discrimination? Clothes changing rooms specific for boys and for girls are discrimination? Or the normal thing is mixed rooms for changing clothes and mixed bathrooms in the Canadian public schools?

Are you sure that no Muslim girl feels inferior in their own mosque? Personally, I wouldn't want to bet on that.

If she feels inferior, she is not forced to participate in any practice that makes her feel inferior, don't you think?

 

[Sahar]

This will be my third time stating this and I don't hold out for more of a response than the other two times (none) but will state it again none-the-less.

The reason that certain groups and followings of Muslims separate their prayer space and have the women pray either behind the men or with a division between them or even in a different room has to do with the men. Not the women. It is a matter of modesty. A huge deal in Islam. Muslims, while bowed in prayer, have another's hind quarters in front of them. Men are considered to be easily distracted by having a woman's rear end in his direct line of vision while he's attempting to pray. Not to mention that it can feel awkward for the woman if she realizes she might be being oogled during prayer services. For this reason the women pray out of the line of sight of the men.

Another thing...certain prayer times, such as Friday prayers, are considered mandatory for men and optional for women. Technically, the women don't even have to be there. It's not like they are being told...'you must pray and you must pray back there because you're not as good as the men'. They are there because they want to be and they are separated out of reasons having to do with modesty and the weakness of men.

It's all about modesty. During the prayers, the worshipers must stand besides each other "shoulder to shoulder, foot to foot" without leaving holes . This isn't possible between both sexes.
Women are behind men to guard their modesty and their hijab. Muslim women wear hijab for good reasons and we are supposed to keep it while praying. I am sure many Muslim girls wouldn't like it if men watched them kneeling and prostrating...these positions make your clothes take the shape of your body especially your buttocks, your shirt might slide up, your skirt might slide down during these movements, good part of your legs might show and other things can show if you are not careful. In short, it's to guard your hijab.

There was a time when I went to pray in the mosque and prayed in the same room specified to men. I was the only girl and I took a corner. That mosque had two gates, one of them was just behind me. And men were entering the mosque from both gates, normally. I was very uncomfortable to the idea of them entering behind me and seeing me in the prostrating and bowing positions. Every move, I was checking if nothing could show from beneath my skirt. I couldn't pray comfortably at all.

At least when you pray in the same room with men, you don't have a gate from which men can enter behind you. If there is such a gate, it becomes specified for women.

 

[Sahar]

What really bothers me in this discussion is the assumption that Muslim women or girls don't have a will, can't speak for themselves and somehow need a non Muslim saver. And this is the real degrading attitude.

Let's be clear, Muslim women have the absolute freedom to attend the congregational prayer at the mosque or not, Islamically speaking. Most Muslim women don't bother and pray where they are whether their homes or a room in their workplace, etc. If any woman goes to the mosque to attend the congregational prayer, it's because she desires it and is willing to exert more effort to pray.

If any women feel inferior at the mosque, she doesn't have to participate. It's that simple. This applies to the Muslim girls of that Canadian school.

In fact, no one can force anyone to pray at all.

Secondly, anyone who won't participate in the prayer, s/he shouldn't disturb its order and so s/he must take any side.
If you saw women who were taking sides without participating in the prayer, it's none of your business if they were on their menses or not.