Having your period? Then go to the back of the class and sit by yourself

[Father Heathen]

Far, far better that it be done by the State at the behest of self-righteous liberals who feel best suited to tell Muslim women how to pray as Muslim women. I mean, how dare those girls practice their religion! :slap:

Because the children choose their faith and practices by their own free will, right?

 

[Father Heathen]

First off, it's not like non-Muslims would be showing up to the Muslim prayers. These would be Muslims doing what they already were taught to do according to their faith. It's not like the school is teaching them to do this, it is just allowing them to do it as they already do.

It's still abhorrent regardless, and tax payers shouldn't have to support it. It would be better that they find a private school to accommodate them.

 

[Skwim]

Having read through all the posts here I have to agree that if the practice of segregating menstruating girls from everyone else during prayer is a religious one, then that's the way it should go; however, had this been in the USA instead of Canada (I'm not familiar with its laws on separation of church and state) I wouldn't expect any public school to provide its facility for any kind of religious practice.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Having read through all the posts here I have to agree that if the practice of segregating menstruating girls from everyone else during prayer is a religious one, then that's the way it should go; however, had this been in the USA instead of Canada (I'm not familiar with its laws on separation of church and state) I wouldn't expect any public school to provide its facility for any kind of religious practice.

Canada has no official separation of church and state. Our head of state is also the head of a major Christian denomination, and here in Ontario as well as certain other provinces, we have a taxpayer-funded Catholic school system that operates in parallel to the secular public school system.

However, we do have a Charter right to equal protection and benefit of the law without discrimination on the basis of religion.

The Charter has an exception for Catholic schools (which is a whole other kettle of fish and an issue that I'd really like to have resolved, even though this probably won't happen any time soon), but not for cases like this.

Speaking as a Canadian, I was very surprised when I learned that this was going on in a public school.

 

[Skwim]

Canada has no official separation of church and state. Our head of state is also the head of a major Christian denomination, and here in Ontario as well as certain other provinces, we have a taxpayer-funded Catholic school system that operates in parallel to the secular public school system.

However, we do have a Charter right to equal protection and benefit of the law without discrimination on the basis of religion.

The Charter has an exception for Catholic schools (which is a whole other kettle of fish and an issue that I'd really like to have resolved, even though this probably won't happen any time soon), but not for cases like this.

Speaking as a Canadian, I was very surprised when I learned that this was going on in a public school.

That's very interesting. Thanks for bringing me up to date.

 

[Katzpur]

Skwim, you've got to be ******* kidding me man. So this is where we are? This is precisely why the rational hate religion.

How is it rational to hate religion when this is an isolated case of religious fundamentalism gone off the deep end? There are billions of religious people who realize how crazy this practice is. It's as irrational to hate religion as it is to be a religious fanatic.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I find the practice of segregating girls, and especially menstruating girls, objectionable; however, I find much of religious practice objectionable. If the school is going to accommodate extra-curricular / cultural / religious student activities, then the students must be free to practice the way they want, not the way I want. As long as reasonable accommodation is made for all groups, without disproportionate favor being given to one particular group, I don't see a problem ....

 

[Poisonshady313]

Not at all, so please don't claim something I did not say.

Again, see above.

Thank you in advance.

It's not an unreasonable summation of what you've said. You don't want to say they can't use that time and place for their prayers, but you don't want them to be able to do things in their own way because it seems wrong to you.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Or, in another way of looking at it, if you're going to do something in a secular public school, you have to be willing to deal with everything that comes with it. If the school provides space for the activity, it's well within the rights of the school to set rules on how the space can and can't be used. It's up to the individual practitioners to decide whether their needs can be accommodated.

And as for where the line should be drawn, I think a good starting point would be the overarching policies of the school board. In the case of the Toronto District School Board, they have policies mandating things like equal treatment on the basis of gender, inclusiveness to all students, and strict rules about admission of visitors onto school property for non-school-related business. Since we're talking about an activity involving students of the school occuring on school property during school hours, I see no reason to set aside any of them in this case.

I wonder what section of the school's handbook deals with the rules and regs of Muslim worship.

equal treatment I believe (and I could be wrong) includes both men and women being able to abide by the tenets of their faith, especially when engaging in particularly religious activity. If that means women sitting in the back, then so be it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I find the practice of segregating girls, and especially menstruating girls, objectionable; however, I find much of religious practice objectionable. If the school is going to accommodate extra-curricular / cultural / religious student activities, then the students must be free to practice the way they want, not the way I want. As long as reasonable accommodation is made for all groups, without disproportionate favor being given to one particular group, I don't see a problem ....

:clap

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Because the children choose their faith and practices by their own free will, right?

Certainly not if you have anything to say about it ...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wonder what section of the school's handbook deals with the rules and regs of Muslim worship.

In this particular case, since the worship is occurring on school property during school hours, the following board policies would deal with it:

Policy P031 - Human Rights

Under this policy, the Board upholds and supports the right to equal treatment without discrimination
based on the following prohibited grounds:
[...]
• Gender
[...]
​

​

Policy P044 - Code of Conduct

(c) The standards of behaviour outlined in this Policy shall apply to all members of
the school community, including students, parents and guardians, teachers or
other school staff members, Board members, volunteers and visitors:
�� on school property;
�� while travelling on a school bus that is owned by the Board or that is under
contract to the Board;
�� in-school sports activities;
�� in off-site school-sponsored activities; or
�� in circumstances where engaging in an activity will have an impact on the

school climate.

[...]

(a) Standards of Behaviour: Respect, Civility, and Responsible Citizenship
Under the Provincial Code of Conduct, all members of the school community
must:
[...]
�� respect and treat others fairly, regardless of, for example, race, ancestry,
place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, religion, gender, sexual​

orientation, age, or disability;

​

​

Policy P051 - Safe Schools

The mission of the Toronto District School Board is to provide “learning environments that are
safe, nurturing, positive and respectful.”
Such learning environments are peaceful and welcoming for all. They must be free of negative
factors such as abuse, bullying, discrimination, intimidation, hateful words and deeds and physical
violence in any form. They must also clearly demonstrate respect for human rights and social
justice and promote the values needed to develop responsible members of a democratic

society.

​

equal treatment I believe (and I could be wrong) includes both men and women being able to abide by the tenets of their faith, especially when engaging in particularly religious activity. If that means women sitting in the back, then so be it.

I see two issues here:

- So... in your mind, the arrangement of "separate but equal" can actually result in equal treatment, free of discrimination?

- Regardless of whether the outcomes for boys and girls are equal in value, you can't segregate on the basis of gender without discriminating on the basis of gender. The school's policies address not only equitable treatment, but also discrimination itself.​

 

[Poisonshady313]

In this particular case, since the worship is occurring on school property during school hours, the following board policies would deal with it:

Policy P031 - Human Rights

[/left]
Policy P044 - Code of Conduct

​

Policy P051 - Safe Schools

I see two issues here:

- So... in your mind, the arrangement of "separate but equal" can actually result in equal treatment, free of discrimination?

- Regardless of whether the outcomes for boys and girls are equal in value, you can't segregate on the basis of gender without discriminating on the basis of gender. The school's policies address not only equitable treatment, but also discrimination itself.​

If someone were being deprived of something or made to feel inferior, you'd be right. If gender separation is just part of how the services are conducted, and they partake in these services knowing that this is the case, I wouldn't consider it discrimination.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If someone were being deprived of something or made to feel inferior, you'd be right. If gender separation is just part of how the services are conducted, and they partake in these services knowing that this is the case, I wouldn't consider it discrimination.

Our friends are enamoured by their own gallantry ...

fully willing to defend your inaliable right to live and pray as they deem appropriate.​

God bless 'em!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If someone were being deprived of something or made to feel inferior, you'd be right.

And I'd say an arrangement of "boys in front, girls behind, and menstruating girls away against the wall" certainly creates a situation where someone could be made to feel inferior.

If gender separation is just part of how the services are conducted, and they partake in these services knowing that this is the case, I wouldn't consider it discrimination.

You wouldn't? What do you think "discrimination" means?

Our friends are enamoured by their own gallantry ...

fully willing to defend your inaliable right to live and pray as they deem appropriate.
​

God bless 'em!

Don't twist what I'm saying.

You have the right to pray however you want in your own house of worship, on your own time. You also have the responsibility to follow certain rules when in a school setting, regardless of whether you're praying or not. It's not about dictating prayer; it's about dictating how students should be treated in school.

 

[waitasec]

i may be wrong but i think it has to do with the embarrassment a little girl may have being on her period and bending over in front of a boy or anyone really...

 

[Poisonshady313]

And I'd say an arrangement of "boys in front, girls behind, and menstruating girls away against the wall" certainly creates a situation where someone could be made to feel inferior.

Not if they actually know better, which they do by middle school.

You wouldn't? What do you think "discrimination" means?

to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit;

There is neither favor nor preference... it's simply the arrangement of Muslim services.

If you mean to suggest the secondary dictionary definition of the word: to note or observe a difference, you'd have to start considering things like the appropriateness of separate restrooms for boys and girls... or the appropriateness of all male sports teams/all female sports teams.

Seeing as how those things aren't likely to be singled out as instances of unacceptable violations of school policy regarding discrimination, it seems to me that this Muslim worship situation shouldn't be either.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's not about dictating prayer; it's about dictating how students should be treated in school.

This thread is a condescending attack on how Muslim's pray and the white-man's-burden mentality ever ready to protect them from their belief system and protect those "not them" from exposure. One can almost hear the strains of Onward Christian Soldiers in the background. I am twisting nothing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not if they actually know better, which they do by middle school.

Know better than what? To believe that the arrangement makes them feel inferior?

I'm well beyond middle school age and I think that it's an entirely reasonable position for a person to have at any age. Don't you?

to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit;

There is neither favor nor preference... it's simply the arrangement of Muslim services.

There absolutely is preference.

First off, Muslim students get preferential treatment over other students by having this prayer service in the first place while other students (such as the Hindu students whose parents' protests started this whole fight in the press) do not.

Second, the physical arrangement of the prayer space demonstrates favour for the boys over the girls. If you wanted actual neutral segregation (if such a thing is even possible), you'd need to have some arrangement where boys and girls get equal pride of place: boys on the left and girls on the right, for instance, with neither group ahead of the other.

Third, excluding the menstruating girls only affects girls. Barring exceptional circumstances, boys are free to participate in every service. Girls are excluded at regular intervals. Discrimination on the basis of menstruation is a form of discrimination on the basis of gender.

If you mean to suggest the secondary dictionary definition of the word: to note or observe a difference, you'd have to start considering things like the appropriateness of separate restrooms for boys and girls... or the appropriateness of all male sports teams/all female sports teams.

Seeing as how those things aren't likely to be singled out as instances of unacceptable violations of school policy regarding discrimination, it seems to me that this Muslim worship situation shouldn't be either.

Except that in these cases, great pains are taken to ensure equal treatment: there have been court challenges and (IIRC) complaints to human rights tribunals in cases where the girls' sports team gets inferior treatment to the boys' sports team: poorer quality gym space or equipment, less desireable practice times, etc.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This thread is a condescending attack on how Muslim's pray and the white-man's-burden mentality ever ready to protect them from their belief system and protect those "not them" from exposure. One can almost hear the strains of Onward Christian Soldiers in the background. I am twisting nothing.

Baloney. It's not about any menace of "the other"; it's about the fact that a fair and just society demands that our common laws and rules be applied equitably and evenly for all, and that a common good such as a public school not be used as a tool for unfairly and inequitably benefiting only one portion of society.

It's not about protecting Muslims from their belief system. As I said before, I have no problem with the students going to the local mosque and praying on their own time and off school grounds.

A public school belongs to all citizens. Just as it would be inappropriate for the school to loan out its cargo vans to help Muslim students (and only Muslim students) move, it's inappropriate for school space and time to be used for the enrichment of only Muslim students. It's also inappropriate to suspend normal school rules for only one group, and it's definitely inappropriate for a school administration to wash its hands of responsibility for activities that occur on school property, during school hours, involving students.

For me, the religious aspect of this is secondary. I don't care what basis is being used to create a double standard for students; I object to double standards, period.