Having your period? Then go to the back of the class and sit by yourself

[Rakhel]

however, had this been in the USA instead of Canada (I'm not familiar with its laws on separation of church and state) I wouldn't expect any public school to provide its facility for any kind of religious practice.

San Diego absorbed a failing Arabic language charter school that had a special recess for praying Muslims. So it does happen in this country.
ACLU of San Diego & Imperial Counties: News & Events

 

[Sunstone]

It's not that at all.

There is no reason in a chess club to seat menstruating girls apart from other members of the club.

I'm sure someone could come up with reasons just as "rational" as any irrational religious reasons. Don't you?

Muslim tradition has reasons for having menstruating girls apart from the rest.

Again, why should Muslim customs be treated any differently than secular customs? To merely assert that Muslims have "reasons" for their customs is to avoid answering that question.

You may not like it... you don't have to. Nobody's asking you to become a Muslim or participate in their prayer services.

Again, you are avoiding the question by raising a red herring. At issue is why Muslim customs should be treated any differently than secular customs? Please address the issue or concede that you know of no reason Muslim customs should be treated any differently than secular customs.

...they're not humiliating anybody.

And you know no 11,12, or 13 year old girls feel humiliated by these practices...how?

 

[Rakhel]

11, 12, 13 year old girls, of any religion or race, feel humiliated when they forget to bring enough pads and happen to "leak." You want the boys to see that? do you have any idea how that feels? To be sitting in a class room and have some kid, any kid, look over at you and see blood on your pants or skirt?
I'm sure guys go through it too. Especially when they start "tenting." a girl looks over at a guy and suddenly, she shrieks and starts laughing and pointing at him.

School is bad enough without giving the bullies ammunition to throw at you.

 

[Draka]

Look, as far as I can tell the practice of separating males and females during prayers has more to do with men being weak than anything about women being second-class or anything like that. It is considered a bad thing to have women intermingled with men or even within clear sight of the men while they are praying as the men are weak and can be easily distracted by the sight of a woman. For this reason the women pray behind the men so as they won't be easily seen by the men. They don't tend to worry about the women getting distracted by the sight of the men. It may sound ridiculous, but if you think about it they are pretty much saying that men are weak lustful creatures and women are not. Now you can disagree with that, but taken in that vein they are not insulting the women, but the men. As for the menstruation thing, that has been discussed both religiously and physically.

Honestly, as has been mentioned several times, this is not about the school teaching the kids segregation or that girls are somehow less-than boys. It's merely allowing Muslim students a place to pray like they normally would so that they don't have to leave the school to fulfill their religious obligations.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I'm sure someone could come up with reasons just as "rational" as any irrational religious reasons. Don't you?

No.

Again, why should Muslim customs be treated any differently than secular customs? To merely assert that Muslims have "reasons" for their customs is to avoid answering that question.

I'm the one who said that Muslim prayer shouldn't be permitted in public school in the first place.

Again, you are avoiding the question by raising a red herring. At issue is why Muslim customs should be treated any differently than secular customs? Please address the issue or concede that you know of no reason Muslim customs should be treated any differently than secular customs.

I'm not sure the question is relevant. What secular customs are not being given enough deference to prompt such a question?

The school made a decision to permit Muslim prayer. They could have just as easily not done so. Having done so, it's not their place to dictate how Muslims hold Muslim services.

And you know no 11,12, or 13 year old girls feel humiliated by these practices...how?

And you know 11, 12, or 13 year old girls feel humiliated by these practices... how?

 

[Skwim]

San Diego absorbed a failing Arabic language charter school that had a special recess for praying Muslims. So it does happen in this country.
ACLU of San Diego & Imperial Counties: News & Events

WOW, that type font and size is difficult to read; so much so I could only skim the article. I didn't catch any reference to a "special" recess, one created specifically for Muslim prayer without equal recess time given to non-Muslims, but if this is the case then I think it's an unlawful concession. If not, if others do have equal recess time, then I have no problem with it. Recess, as I understand it, is free time on outside on school grounds.

 

[beenie]

Um, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought that was the basic set up when it came to prayers in a Mosque? It's Muslim tradition for the men and women to be separated during prayers and I even believe there is something to do with menstration as well. While we may not agree with it, if the space was granted for Muslim prayer then shouldn't it be set up as the Muslims want to pray? In the manner to which they are accustomed? Which would be how it appears they are doing it. Again, if a Muslim would care to correct me then ok, but I thought separation was very much a part of how their prayers are done.

Agreed.

I'm not sure about Muslim thoughts on this, but the reason given for a menstruating woman being unclean under Judaism: The course of menses was a life that could have been, leaving the woman in contact with death, making her ritually impure. In the day of condoms and chemical means of birth control, I can see how this doesn't make much sense to you, but from a perspective of "be fruitful and multiply", it makes a lot of sense to me.

We have an entire set of laws concerning what is called Niddah. A man may not touch his wife during this period of separation(from time the courses start until a week after, provided she gets to a mikvah.

Looks like we're all barbaric then. <<sarcasm intended>>

I find the practice of segregating girls, and especially menstruating girls, objectionable; however, I find much of religious practice objectionable. If the school is going to accommodate extra-curricular / cultural / religious student activities, then the students must be free to practice the way they want, not the way I want. As long as reasonable accommodation is made for all groups, without disproportionate favor being given to one particular group, I don't see a problem ....

Neither do I.

In terms of women not praying during menstruation...I make lemonade out of a lemon. It's a vacation. Most Muslim women see it this way, not as a deficiency or insult...not "dirty" either.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

According to who?

Rosa Parks, maybe?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I didn't mean to suggest you made up the term. I meant to suggest you made up applying it to the seating structure in a mosque.

When I go to synagogue, I sit in the back, and it doesn't bother me at all. I guess I could gripe that the vent for the air conditioner is on the women side...

And when I ride on a bus, I usually prefer a seat at the back. It doesn't mean that those who protested the fact that "coloureds" were forced to ride at the back didn't have a point.

If the Muslim girls are complaining about being sent to the back, then you're right. If it's just a bunch of onlookers seeing something they don't understand and crying foul, they ought to just mind their own business.

Wait... so you do agree that in certain cases - i.e. when the participating students don't like what's going on - it's right for the administration to step in and "interfere" with the prayer sessions? If so, that's a refreshing change in your position.

But I think I have to correct you on one point: this is the onlookers' business. We're talking about events occurring in a public school during school hours involving students. It's the business of every student, parent, taxpayer and citizen.

This isn't more segregation. This is the same segregation that occurs in their mosque.

Let's try this a different way. Think about two sets:

A: {gender-segregated prayer services in mosques, gender-segregated washrooms in public schools}

B: {gender-segregated prayer services in mosques, gender-segregated washrooms in public schools, gender-segregated prayer services in public schools}

Which set is larger: A or B?

It's moved into the school specifically so that students don't have to leave school to participate in prayer. And it's only during the muslim prayer time. We don't have menstruating girls being locked out of classrooms, do we? Muslim girls never sitting in front of Muslim boys during Math class, do we?

The day that starts happening in public schools, I'll get all outraged about it.

This whole situation is happening in a public school. That's why it's an issue.

But as long as Muslim prayer meetings are being accommodated, the school shouldn't tell the students what side of the prayer area they need to be on. It would be better to do away with the accommodation altogether.

I disagree. I think it's nuts to say that if a public school opens the door to reasonable accommodation even a crack that they lose the right to have any responsibility for activites that occur. It's still a public school.

No.

That sounds like a challenge. Here's one. Hopefully you don't mind that I changed it up a bit by making it deal with ovulation instead of menstruation:

Ovulating females can produce certain pheremones that have an effect on the surrounding males, which can be distracting to the males and interfere with their ability to perform complex mental tasks. This can give ovulating girls a slight unfair advantage at chess. Therefore, ovulating girls shouldn't be allowed to play... right?

11, 12, 13 year old girls, of any religion or race, feel humiliated when they forget to bring enough pads and happen to "leak." You want the boys to see that? do you have any idea how that feels? To be sitting in a class room and have some kid, any kid, look over at you and see blood on your pants or skirt?
I'm sure guys go through it too. Especially when they start "tenting." a girl looks over at a guy and suddenly, she shrieks and starts laughing and pointing at him.

School is bad enough without giving the bullies ammunition to throw at you.

Do you think it would give ammunition to bullies if the names of the girls in the class (a middle school class, remember) who were menstruating that day was posted on the classroom bulletin board?

Having an event where menstruating girls are clearly separated from everyone else provides this same information to the other students.

 

[Otherright]

The options are pretty straight forward:

deny Muslims the opportunity to worship as Muslims,

interfere with their opportunity to worship as Muslims, or

enable the ability to worship as Muslims.​

By degrading other humans? That's your answer.

As a follower of the Judaic religion, I find it unsettling how quickly you forget history. Back in the 30s and 40s there was another group of people who thought it was OK to degrade your very people based on ideology.

That didn't go very well.

 

[Draka]

Let's try this a different way. Think about two sets:

A: {gender-segregated prayer services in mosques, gender-segregated washrooms in public schools}

B: {gender-segregated prayer services in mosques, gender-segregated washrooms in public schools, gender-segregated prayer services in public schools}

Which set is larger: A or B?

Technically, since the only reason they are allowing the students prayer space in the school is so they won't leave the school or miss the day in order to go to their regular prayer services. Therefore, the sets would still have the same number in them, it's just the places that differ. Instead of one large group in the Mosque, you'd have a slightly smaller group in the Mosque and a small group in the cafeteria. If you add the groups together you'd have what was in the first group if the cafeteria wasn't provided.

Basically you just asked which was more:
3 bananas, 3 apples and 3 oranges in one pile
OR
2 bananas, 2 apples, and 2 oranges in one pile and a banana, an apple and an orange in another pile.

Just saying.

 

[blackout]

My religion says,
when you have your period
you get to stay home and rest in bed all day.
and night.

And nobody holds it against you.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

By degrading other humans? That's your answer.

As a follower of the Judaic religion, I find it unsettling how quickly you forget history. Back in the 30s and 40s there was another group of people who thought it was OK to degrade your very people based on ideology.

That didn't go very well.

That was a remarkably stupid and/or dishonest statement. The only one degrading people here are those denigrating Muslims in prayer, and the Shoah would have been impossible in a society committed to pluralism rather than awash in bigotry.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Technically, since the only reason they are allowing the students prayer space in the school is so they won't leave the school or miss the day in order to go to their regular prayer services. Therefore, the sets would still have the same number in them, it's just the places that differ.

Yes. But the question here is how many settings should allow gender discrimination, not one of the total number of people involved.

Instead of one large group in the Mosque, you'd have a slightly smaller group in the Mosque and a small group in the cafeteria. If you add the groups together you'd have what was in the first group if the cafeteria wasn't provided.

Basically you just asked which was more:
3 bananas, 3 apples and 3 oranges in one pile
OR
2 bananas, 2 apples, and 2 oranges in one pile and a banana, an apple and an orange in another pile.

Just saying.

So... by the same token, because students can and do smoke on the sidewalk in front of the school, they should be allowed to smoke in the playground at the times when they'd be smoking on the sidewalk otherwise? After all, the school wouldn't be encouraging any negative behaviour, because nobody would be doing anything they weren't already doing... right?

 

[HiddenDjinn]

I find it intersesting, that, with the exception of Draka, who is pagan, this is essentially a Jewish vs atheist debate. I personally find it patently offensive that the atheists here wish to force their personal prejudices concerning allowable religious behavior down everyone's throats. True freedom of religion means that a religious group can freely practice, as they see fit, in any situation. It seems that atheists only want to allow religious practice if they aren't allowed to see.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I find it intersesting, that, with the exception of Draka, who is pagan, this is essentially a Jewish vs atheist debate. I personally find it patently offensive that the atheists here wish to force their personal prejudices concerning allowable religious behavior down everyone's throats.

This is a public school paid for by taxpayer funds. If anyone's shoving anything down anyone's throats, it's those who would turn a civic institution into a prayer hall for a single religion.

True freedom of religion means that a religious group can freely practice, as they see fit, in any situation.

When expressed that way, "true freedom of religion" could come into conflict with many other important rights.

It seems that atheists only want to allow religious practice if they aren't allowed to see.

No, that's not it. Practice your religion right in front of me if you want; just don't expect me to pay for it or endorse it. These prayer services demand that I - or the elected and appointed representatives acting on behalf of all residents and citizens - do both.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

This is a public school paid for by taxpayer funds. If anyone's shoving anything down anyone's throats, it's those who would turn a civic institution into a prayer hall for a single religion.

And for the school boards and PTA's that use churches to meet, they need to buy their own damn building.

When expressed that way, "true freedom of religion" could come into conflict with many other important rights.

And your proposal comes into conflict with many important rights as well, so I guess it's even.

No, that's not it. Practice your religion right in front of me if you want; just don't expect me to pay for it or endorse it. These prayer services demand that I - or the elected and appointed representatives acting on behalf of all residents and citizens - do both.

How are you paying for or endorsing anything? I only see them using a room, not forcing your government to build a room for them. The room isn't even used solely for them. It's a cafeteria. Seriously, put down the kool-aid.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You'd think that these champions of Muslim women would actually take the time to talk to Muslim women, but ...

 

[HiddenDjinn]

You'd think that these champions of Muslim women would actually take the time to talk to Muslim women, but ...

The problem, the Muslim woman may tell them to **** off and leave her religious practices alone.

 

[Songbird]

I should hope such a person would attend a private school. Failing that, I don't think they should permit such activities. I honestly don't agree with them permitting Muslim prayer services.

But if the school did allow slaughtering a chicken every tuesday at noon, and the religion prescribes a manner in which this ought to be done, the school has no business determining that one manner is more cruel than another.... they lost that fight the moment they permitted the activity in the first place. An activity they still can very well stop permitting altogether.

I ask because when the brouhaha about the Bible study at my high school happened, this was the exact question a friend asked me while we were debating religious activities on school property. That was....thinking...16 years ago. It's funny to see this debate play out on a forum, albeit with different factors.

If the time was set aside for study, and not for prayer, the people who wanted music worship time were wrong. Perhaps those folks should have asked for yet another empty classroom dedicated for their purpose.

I think you're arbitrarily picking the other side of the issue now. Or my terminology wasn't clear. In Christian Bible studies, it's common to have a time of music worship first, then a scripture study, then prayer. This was well known to the faculty, especially in a district with a large number of evangelical Christians. Denying one aspect of their study is the same thing as denying Muslim gender segregation during prayer. It's how Christians worship.

And for the record, the public at my large high school overwhelmingly decided it's quite acceptable for the school to set parameters on how religion is expressed on its grounds.

In the end, I see little wrong with a school saying, we want you to have some freedom for religious expression here, but we reserve the right to limit it. But I do see how it's insulting and condescending to strip a prayer service of a major ritual due to lack of understanding.