Having your period? Then go to the back of the class and sit by yourself

[beenie]

You'd think that these champions of Muslim women would actually take the time to talk to Muslim women, but ...

Did everyone miss my reply?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And for the school boards and PTA's that use churches to meet, they need to buy their own damn building.

I don't know of any board or PTA around here that uses a church to meet.

And I believe that most school boards do own buildings; they call them "schools".

How are you paying for or endorsing anything? I only see them using a room, not forcing your government to build a room for them. The room isn't even used solely for them. It's a cafeteria. Seriously, put down the kool-aid.

Cafeteria space has value. If it's granted to one group, this prevents the school from using the space at that time for something else.

And even if the room is sitting vacant, use of the space creates cost in terms of things like custodian time.

As for endorsement, no official activities can take place in a school during school hours without the endorsement of the school administration, who are acting on behalf of the public. This is especially true when outside people are brought into the school, such as the imam. Except for parents of students in the school (who have a legal right to visit their children's school under Ontario law) and the students themselves, nobody is allowed admittance to a school unless they are on school-related business and have been approved by the administration.

So... in effect, by allowing the prayer service to happen and by allowing an outside imam to come in to oversee it, the school has declared that the prayer service is school-related business. IOW, they have endorsed the practice.

 

[Songbird]

Did everyone miss my reply?

I think it's not about Muslims, just like when my high school Bible study debate wasn't about Christians.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think it's not about Muslims, just like when my high school Bible study debate wasn't about Christians.

Actually, I don't think it's really about Muslims either.

The question of gender segregation is really one issue in a larger double standard: one set of rules for Muslim prayer services in a public school, and a different set of rules for all other activities in the school. Even if everyone who participated in the prayer service liked the arrangement, it would still be wrong.

It's not really about declaring Muslim worship to be bad in some way; it's about noting that it (in this specific case, anyhow) is incompatible with the normal rules that are supposed to apply to everyone.

 

[gnomon]

The only thing that persuades me on this issue is what Muslim women say and the relative harm.

It doesn't seem to be an issue among Muslim women from what I've read elsewhere and the relative harm is practically nonexistent.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a state controlled entity allowing a gender bias based on cultural grounds but the it's hard for me to find an argument that rises to the comparison of women's rights gained in health care, jobs, education, protection under the law, etc.

Ultimately, on this specific issue, points were raised on this issue by someone, not on this site, that completely changed the view of this for me. The issue that students being allowed to leave the school led to missed class time. Students could leave the school and basically leave the supervision of the school to use the time to basically socialize. That's right. Muslim kids are just like any other kids. Perfect time to go hang out with their friends if they wanted rather than attend prayer.

However, the argument that because this practice is grounded in religion therefore it must be given a level of respect is laughable. The entire history of women's civil rights involved changing such cultural beliefs through necessity, a change in the point of view among members of the culture and as well by the force of law. The state has and will continue to enforce limits on religious and other cultural practices. All the civil right's movements in Western history involved placing limits on a number of different cultures and their ability to freely practice their cultural beliefs.

But still, after thinking about it I cannot raise this issue up to that level. I'm just a waffle on the fence on this one.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As for endorsement, no official activities can take place in a school during school hours without the endorsement of the school administration, who are acting on behalf of the public. This is especially true when outside people are brought into the school, such as the imam. Except for parents of students in the school (who have a legal right to visit their children's school under Ontario law) and the students themselves, nobody is allowed admittance to a school unless they are on school-related business and have been approved by the administration.

So... in effect, by allowing the prayer service to happen and by allowing an outside imam to come in to oversee it, the school has declared that the prayer service is school-related business. IOW, they have endorsed the practice.

BTW - I just discovered that I'm wrong on one point here. I just had a look at what the Education Act says about visitors in public schools and discovered this:

Same
(3) A member of the clergy may visit a public school in the area where the member has pastoral charge.

Education Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. E.2

So... apparently, the school has a legal duty to admit the imam.

I think this is ridiculous, but it's the current law of the land.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ultimately, on this specific issue, points were raised on this issue by someone, not on this site, that completely changed the view of this for me. The issue that students being allowed to leave the school led to missed class time. Students could leave the school and basically leave the supervision of the school to use the time to basically socialize. That's right. Muslim kids are just like any other kids. Perfect time to go hang out with their friends if they wanted rather than attend prayer.

I've said it before in this thread, but I think the best way to deal with the problem would've been to move the lunch hour to something in the normal range (which I know is as late at 1:00-2:00 at some schools around here) that accommodates Friday prayer time.

The students would be free to use this time to go off school grounds to the local burger joint or mosque as they see fit, and they'd all have to be back by the bell at the end of lunch.

 

[Madhuri]

I am also confused by it. I never did understand it either, in my own religion. I'll pose the question in a new thread.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You'd think that these champions of Muslim women would actually take the time to talk to Muslim women, but ...

Did everyone miss my reply?

Perhaps because you identify yourself as a moderate Muslim folks just assume you're an imposter ... :yes:

 

[Draka]

Yes. But the question here is how many settings should allow gender discrimination, not one of the total number of people involved.

So it is your assertion that, say, a community center which opened its doors and rooms for people of all religions to use for prayers and rituals and whatnot should have a disclaimer on the door that prohibits Muslims from praying in their traditional manner, because the men and women pray in separate groups, but all other religious practices are ok?

Wait. Should state park administrations not allow Dianic Wiccans to use parks for their rituals?

Wait. Freemasons. Their lodges are to be objected to as well right? Another place of gender discrimination right?

So... by the same token, because students can and do smoke on the sidewalk in front of the school, they should be allowed to smoke in the playground at the times when they'd be smoking on the sidewalk otherwise? After all, the school wouldn't be encouraging any negative behaviour, because nobody would be doing anything they weren't already doing... right?

Bad example. As smoking on the grounds around others actually affects others' health. A group of students praying in gender designated groups in the cafeteria doesn't impact other students who would be in classes at that time. Smoking and praying are not on equal grounds and to equate the two is like using arguments against homosexuality by using pedophilia.They have nothing to do with each other.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Did everyone miss my reply?

Oops...sorry

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So it is your assertion that, say, a community center which opened its doors and rooms for people of all religions to use for prayers and rituals and whatnot should have a disclaimer on the door that prohibits Muslims from praying in their traditional manner, because the men and women pray in separate groups, but all other religious practices are ok?

And then there's the Sikh marriage that my wife attended and where we found ourselves seated on different sides of the room. And then there's ...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So it is your assertion that, say, a community center which opened its doors and rooms for people of all religions to use for prayers and rituals and whatnot should have a disclaimer on the door that prohibits Muslims from praying in their traditional manner, because the men and women pray in separate groups, but all other religious practices are ok?

No, it's not. A community centre normally doesn't place the sort of behavioural restrictions on the people who use it that a school does.

If they have space that all community groups can use on an equal basis, then all community groups can use it on an equal basis. The staff of the community centre where I practice my martial arts don't get involved in how we carry on our practices; I wouldn't expect them to get involved any more in the goings-on of a religious group that meets in their space.

However, if a public community centre ran a summer camp for children, I'd expect that program to be free of this sort of gender segregation.

Wait. Should state park administrations not allow Dianic Wiccans to use parks for their rituals?

Do people normally have to get permission from the park administrator for their activities in a park? I see no reason to place more restrictions on Dianic Wiccans than they place on a group of friends playing frisbee.

Wait. Freemasons. Their lodges are to be objected to as well right? Another place of gender discrimination right?

Well, yes, they are. And religious discrimination as well. However, a Masonic Lodge does not purport to fill some sort of official role for society as a whole; a public school does.

Bad example. As smoking on the grounds around others actually affects others' health. A group of students praying in gender designated groups in the cafeteria doesn't impact other students who would be in classes at that time. Smoking and praying are not on equal grounds and to equate the two is like using arguments against homosexuality by using pedophilia.They have nothing to do with each other.

A group of students, some of whom are smoking, will have the same effects on each other's health whether they're on the sidewalk in front of the school or in a corner of the playing field.

Edit: I once saw a floor plan for my high school from the 70s that had an area off by itself - but still on school property - labelled "student smoking area". By the time I was a student there, the "smoking area" was gone. Students smoked just off school property... but at a spot that was actually closer to a main door. Do you think that any student was healthier because of this change? I don't.

 

[Songbird]

11, 12, 13 year old girls, of any religion or race, feel humiliated when they forget to bring enough pads and happen to "leak." You want the boys to see that? do you have any idea how that feels? To be sitting in a class room and have some kid, any kid, look over at you and see blood on your pants or skirt?
I'm sure guys go through it too. Especially when they start "tenting." a girl looks over at a guy and suddenly, she shrieks and starts laughing and pointing at him.

School is bad enough without giving the bullies ammunition to throw at you.

All other issues aside, and having gone through adolescence, I sure would rather have risked that kind of humiliation - which was rare - than have everyone know when I menstruated - every single month - by being separated.

Maybe girls raised in that manner don't mind.

 

[Father Heathen]

I find it intersesting, that, with the exception of Draka, who is pagan, this is essentially a Jewish vs atheist debate. I personally find it patently offensive that the atheists here wish to force their personal prejudices concerning allowable religious behavior down everyone's throats. True freedom of religion means that a religious group can freely practice, as they see fit, in any situation. It seems that atheists only want to allow religious practice if they aren't allowed to see.

No one is saying they cannot believe or practice what they wish, only that it shouldn't be done at tax payer expense. Also a public school is not the proper environment for divisive and misogynistic practices.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... misogynistic practices.

Rubbish. Do you truly believe that the girls participating in the prayer service are victims of mysogynistic practices? Have you ever in your life actually talked to Muslim women?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Rubbish. Do you truly believe that the girls participating in the prayer service are victims of mysogynistic practices?

I do.

There are much worse examples of misogyny in the world, but it still is misogynistic.

However, as I pointed out before, even if the women found the prayer service to be beneficial, it would still be problematic in a public school. A double standard that harms a group is especially bad, but any double standard is still bad in its own right.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

This reminds me of a few other situations ....

Once, when Condoleeza Rice visited Saudi Arabia, she spoke to a group of female students. One of them said they enjoy the "protection" Saudi laws offer, and that women in Saudi Arabia don't want or need to drive cars. The other students cheered, and Ms. Rice was taken aback.

Would it be Western hubris to suppose, perhaps, that these Saudi students are mistaken about their own status? I'm not talking about forcing them to conform to my views; I'm just saying, would it be arrogant for me to *have* this view? After all, their judgment is influenced by the fact that they have no choice in the matter. And when people are given the legal/cultural/religious freedom to choose, women don't voluntarily banish themselves from cars, or segregate themselves to the back pews. Only under the threat of group exclusion do they convince themselves that this is a form of "equality", or that driving a car isn't really very important.

There were also blacks who gladly participated in the LDS church for many years, and during that time they were excluded from the priesthood and segregated in a number of rituals. Would it be arrogant of me to conclude that the LDS church's practices before the 1970's were racist? If some committed black Mormons claim the practices were not racist, they were equitable and fair practices which blacks voluntarily accepted, do I have to accept that they are right?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I do.

You were not being asked. Your views are clear.

 

[Father Heathen]

Rubbish. Do you truly believe that the girls participating in the prayer service are victims of mysogynistic practices? Have you ever in your life actually talked to Muslim women?

How is being segregated and placed in a position that suggests females are lesser anything other than misogyny?