Health Care and the US Elections

[Revoltingest]

See my edit "as far as health care is concerned, at the very least."

No change to my post.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Once Government controls medicine, there will be less services and higher prices. This is not bad, if you are a parasite, since there is no change in cost to you but you still get something for nothing. But someone who has to suddenly pay more for less will not be happy.

Here in Ontario, the difference in what the richest pay for their health care premium vs. what the poorest pay is $900 per year.

Health premium

Learn about the premium that helps fund Ontario’s health services.

www.ontario.ca

I see that in the US, the average healthcare premium is $8,435 per year for an individual. I see from a quick googling that the lowest premium for Medicaid is $60 per year... so you have a spread of $8,375/y between the people paying the most vs. the people paying the least.

 

[crossfire]

No change to my post.

Let me ruminate on "healthcare as a means of destruction" for a bit........You're right! (to an extent)

 

[Revoltingest]

Being a healthy person in Belgium vs being a healthy person in the US, as a belgian citizen you will pay LESS then a US citizen will pay premiums to private insurance.
And the coverage of the more costly insurance in the US will be LESS then the coverage you get from the health care system in Belgium.
Furthermore, the system in Belgium will not be actively trying to find reasons NOT to pay your medical bills, should you have any.

My health insurance & copays are quite affordable.
And my care is first rate.
I know this isn't the same for all, but your broad
brush is inaccurate for many of us here.


Story time....
I needed physical therapy on my hand after surgery.
This was time sensitive for full recovery. I first checked
with the state run facility just down the road from me
(run by University of Mich). They had no openings
for over a month. So I called a privately run facility
in the next town over. They could see me the next
day. This "Plan B" resulted in better service, & a
very happy hand with delighted digits.
And it was quite affordable because of my insurance.


It's not all rainbows & unicorns over here, but neither
is it the horror story that you foreigners believe.

 

[Revoltingest]

Let me ruminate on "healthcare as a means of destruction" for a bit........You're right! (to an extent)

Tis simple....
1) Find definition of "socialism" in dictionary.
2) Observe what military does, ie, kill people & break things.
3) Consider interesting parallels between lawyering & soldiering.

Ignore #3.
Just a tangent.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'd rather not be limited to solely what government
officials determine what I need & when.

They don't. The medical professionals that you consult do.

It shouldn't be illegal for me to hire docs to provide a service
that government won't in a reasonable period of time.

You don't seem to understand how it works. The government doesn't provide health services.
At no point have I dealt with any "government officials" when I required surgery. Nor did the doctors and specialists I consulted.

I went to my housedoc, who gave me the names of 3 specialists at various hospitals. I then looked them up and decided who to call.
I booked an appointment for a consult after deciding. He checked me out and diagnosed my case. We then scheduled the operation.
I then went to the hospital on the day I was scheduled and had the surgery. Spend the night, had my follow-up checkup and then went home.
The hospital then send the bill to the universal health care service, who paid said bill.

That's all that service does: pay the bill. At no point are they involved in the process of hiring doctors or decided if I require surgery or of how urgent it is.
I picked the doctor.
I decided that I wanted the surgery.
I decided, together with the surgeon, when to do the surgery.
The government just paid the bill.
And to pay said bill, they used the money provided by all Belgian citizens who pay taxes, a portion of which is destined for the universal health care budget.

Getting better care sooner.

What do you mean, "better"?
Maybe this is a US thing, but over here in Belgium, there are strict standards in place. You don't get "better" care at hospital A as opposed to hospital "B".

Secondly, the "sooner" part - I consider that absolutely disgusting.
To me, that's the equivalent of saying that you should be able to have the police prioritize your case of a few youngsters who threw eggs at your car over somebody whose home is being invaded and being held hostage, just because you wave with a few dollar bills.

When it comes to health, safety, security,... prioritization should be based on urgency. Not on the size of the wallet.

Are they because you oppose government
allowing a private alternative to people
willing & able to pay?

No. I oppose it because I feel it is disgusting to deprive people from the care they need (be it health, safety, security) simply because you "buy it off" of them.

Someone shouldn't have to wait to have their life-threatening cancerous skincells removed because some rich dude hogs the surgeon for some bs cosmetic treatment or whatever.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yer preach'n to the choir, girlie.
I see that God is punishing your country
by sending Boris to flood it. That's for
siding with Putin against Ukraine.

In the leftist regions...not certainly in the rightist regions.

And the leftists here are warlike.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

My health insurance & copays are quite affordable.
And my care is first rate.
I know this isn't the same for all, but your broad
brush is inaccurate for many of us here.


Story time....
I needed physical therapy on my hand after surgery.
This was time sensitive for full recovery. I first checked
with the state run facility just down the road from me
(run by University of Mich). They had no openings
for over a month. So I called a privately run facility
in the next town over. They could see me the next
day. This "Plan B" resulted in better service, & a
very happy hand with delighted digits.
And it was quite affordable because of my insurance.


It's not all rainbows & unicorns over here, but neither
is it the horror story that you foreigners believe.

Your story is only a story that goes for people that have the money.
Everybody else has to wait. And the only reason they have to wait is because people with money buy their priority spot.

Over here, money or no money, you'll go to the first facility and they'll say "we don't have room for the next month... but go there, they can see you tomorrow".


What I get from your story is that the first facility is overrun with people needing care, leading to long wait times, while there is another facility where they are twiddling their thumbs.

 

[Revoltingest]

They don't. The medical professionals that you consult do.

Those professionals are limited by what funds
government allocates to them.
Do you really believe that government doesn't
impose any prioritization regulations?
Of course they do. Not only because they can
(having never seen a power they didn't want to
exert), but because it's useful.

You don't seem to understand how it works.

The government doesn't provide health services.

We're talking about proposals.
However, US government does provide some health
services, eg, end stage renal disease, veterans.

At no point have I dealt with any "government officials" when I required surgery.

Duh!
They deal with health care administrators.
No bedside services.

Nor did the doctors and specialists I consulted.

I went to my housedoc, who gave me the names of 3 specialists at various hospitals. I then looked them up and decided who to call.
I booked an appointment for a consult after deciding. He checked me out and diagnosed my case. We then scheduled the operation.
I then went to the hospital on the day I was scheduled and had the surgery. Spend the night, had my follow-up checkup and then went home.
The hospital then send the bill to the universal health care service, who paid said bill.

That's all that service does: pay the bill. At no point are they involved in the process of hiring doctors or decided if I require surgery or of how urgent it is.
I picked the doctor.
I decided that I wanted the surgery.
I decided, together with the surgeon, when to do the surgery.
The government just paid the bill.
And to pay said bill, they used the money provided by all Belgian citizens who pay taxes, a portion of which is destined for the universal health care budget.



What do you mean, "better"?
Maybe this is a US thing, but over here in Belgium, there are strict standards in place. You don't get "better" care at hospital A as opposed to hospital "B".

Secondly, the "sooner" part - I consider that absolutely disgusting.
To me, that's the equivalent of saying that you should be able to have the police prioritize your case of a few youngsters who threw eggs at your car over somebody whose home is being invaded and being held hostage, just because you wave with a few dollar bills.

When it comes to health, safety, security,... prioritization should be based on urgency. Not on the size of the wallet.


No. I oppose it because I feel it is disgusting to deprive people from the care they need (be it health, safety, security) simply because you "buy it off" of them.

Someone shouldn't have to wait to have their life-threatening cancerous skincells removed because some rich dude hogs the surgeon for some bs cosmetic treatment or whatever.

I don't know why you're arguing about your
personal experience in the context of my
proposing single payer with a Plan B.
Why do you (appear to) oppose it?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Those professionals are limited by what funds
government allocates to them.

Limited, how?

Do you really believe that government doesn't
impose any prioritization regulations?

Yes. The regulation is: prioritization based on urgency.
When they prioritize based on the size of the wallet, we call that "corruption".

I don't know why you're arguing about your
personal experience in the context of my
proposing single payer with a Plan B.
Why do you (appear to) oppose it?

I already told you. And you illustrated my problem with it quite well with your "story time" example. People with money buy prioritization with money, meaning that people with less money need to wait longer.
And as your own story illustrates, facility A has long wait times while facility B is twiddling with their thumbs waiting from somebody with money to come around.

The result is that the entire potential capacity of health care is in fact far greater then what is being used.
Hundreds of people waiting for specialist A to have an open spot to treat them, while specialists B and C's schedules are wide open.

 

[PureX]

For profit health care is basically just organized collective extortion. "Pay us whatever we demand, or suffer and die". And capitalism LOVES extortion! It's the perfect price-gouging business model.

So all the other nations of the world that have successfully implemented universal health care have had to set price caps to stop the inevitable price gouging that will occur when people suffer and die for lack of the services on offer. And this is why heath care costs half as much in all those other nations as it costs in the U.S. ... because all those nations have capped the prices that heath care providers and all their adjacent businesses can charge people.

But here in the U.S. the capitalists run the show, and they absolutely HATE the idea of anyone setting price caps that would put a limit on their greed. They hate it so much that they will not tolerate even the mere mention of the government setting price caps. And any politician or phony news 'commentator' that would ever be foolish enough to mention those words in public would be DESTROYED immediately by an avalanche of slander and name-calling that would make hardened criminals blush and cry. They would be compared to Stalin and Hitler and Mao, and universally proclaimed to be FAR, FAR, FAR worse. The end of all human civilization would be touted as the inevitable result of allowing this heinous criminal to continue spewing his horrific filth. (Lest someone might actually believe it.)

So there will be no health care reforms in the U.S. that involve any sort of price capping. Or any other means of reigning in the greed of the rich capitalists that are already raking in billions from their health care extortion. Insurance, drugs, doctors, hospitals, procedures, paraphernalia: all wildly overpriced and yielding massive profits for the capital investors. Because what are the sick and injured gonna do? NOT pay?

Capitalism, baby! You bet your a$$ you'll pay or you'll die!

 

[Revoltingest]

What I get from your story is that the first facility is overrun with people needing care, leading to long wait times, while there is another facility where they are twiddling their thumbs.

Your posts are full of such histrionics that
betray blind opposition to private care.
To confirm, I ask again....
Do you oppose single payer health care
system that allows for a Plan B?

 

[Stevicus]

But that only goes for the private health insurance companies. Which was my point.
For all other companies, it's not.

If true, then that should be a major incentive for all other companies to support universal healthcare, but such is not really happening in the U.S.

But they won't....... I assure you that I pay less tax for universal healthcare then people in the US pay in premiums to private insurance for even less coverage then I enjoy.

Furthermore, those private insurance companies will actively look for reasons to NOT pay your bills.
In the system I enjoy, there's no such thing. Bills are paid, no questions asked.
There's no "ow, so you broke your leg while doing irresponsible stupid things? We don't cover stupidity"

I agree, there's a certain degree of myopia on the part of many people in the U.S. who view higher taxes as automatically bad, yet don't seem to feel the same way about higher prices or higher expenses which benefit the private sector. Or they might blame the government for high prices, while virulently arguing against giving government the power to control prices.

In lieu of universal healthcare, another possible solution might be to impose price controls on healthcare. They've done some of that already, such as recent moves to control insulin prices, but that hardly scratches the surface. They need to do more of that, in order to keep the cost of healthcare down. That may be possible if Harris wins and the Democrats retake the House, but I'm only moderately hopeful of that.

All those industries in Belgium earn loads of money.
There just are no middle men taking a piece of the pie, meaning it's cheaper for the consumer / patient.

Yes, this is a good point. There are a lot of middle men who are part of the process who stick their hand in the till. That seems to be a problem in a lot of industries. This also feeds into common perceptions among the working classes is that there are too many people among the "executive" class who just appear to be dead weight and collecting scads of money for doing next to nothing.

Sure. It takes some political balls. However, those insurance companies likely deal in all kinds of insurance and not just health insurance.

I'm not sure. United Healthcare is one of the largest, and they seem to deal just in health insurance. (UnitedHealth Group - Wikipedia)

Their net income last year was over $23 billion. That's a pretty expensive middle man.

Another part of the problem is that, in practice, the result also leads to insurance companies micromanaging patient care which can interfere in the doctor-patient relationship. The question of "what is best for the patient" may often be overshadowed by "what the insurance company will actually pay for."

Also, not all insurance companies are created equal. Some employers will offer great insurance benefit packages, and others...not so much.

Who's these "they" you are referring to here?

Well, based on current events, we might point to Boeing as one example of this process in action. But there's any number of companies, particularly in retail and service industries, such as Walmart, McDonalds, call centers, mines, factories, sweatshops. Some agricultural corporations and food processing plants also seem to have a similar attitude towards their workers. Many employers will skirt the law or set up operations overseas just to avoid having to treat their employees better.

Of course, I recognize that not all business owners are like that. Some are nice. Some are fair. Some treat their employees decently. (There, I said it!)

 

[Revoltingest]

Limited, how?

Any system that doesn't have unlimited funds
will necessarily have limited resources. This
means that services must be prioritized, with
criteria established & enforced.

This will vary from country to country. I've done
some searching, & found some sites with info,
eg, England. But is it necessary for me to give you
specifics of prioritizing care in order to justify my
claim that prioritization exists?
Do you deny that services are prioritized based
upon need, urgency, cost, etc? Ya canna give
every person everything they want as soon as
they want it. Boob jobs will take a back seat to
appendectomies.

Yes. The regulation is: prioritization based on urgency.
When they prioritize based on the size of the wallet, we call that "corruption".


I already told you. And you illustrated my problem with it quite well with your "story time" example. People with money buy prioritization with money, meaning that people with less money need to wait longer.
And as your own story illustrates, facility A has long wait times while facility B is twiddling with their thumbs waiting from somebody with money to come around.

The result is that the entire potential capacity of health care is in fact far greater then what is being used.
Hundreds of people waiting for specialist A to have an open spot to treat them, while specialists B and C's schedules are wide open.

You appear completely opposed to a Plan B.
We must agree to disagree because this is
unproductive.

 

[Estro Felino]

Any system that doesn't have unlimited funds
will necessarily have limited resources. This
means that services must be prioritized, with
criteria established & enforced.

This will vary from country to country. I've done
some searching, & found some sites with info,
eg, England. But is it necessary for me to give you
specifics of prioritizing care in order to justify my
claim that prioritization exists?
Do you deny that services are prioritized based
upon need, urgency, cost, etc? Ya canna give
every person everything they want as soon as
they want it. Boob jobs will take a back seat to
appendectomies.

You appear completely opposed to a Plan B.
We must agree to disagree because this is
unproductive.

You've said it.
In the US people believe that a cancer surgery that can save someone's life is equivalent to a mastoplasty done on a frivolous woman.

The culture of injustice.

 

[Estro Felino]

And by the way...we all will die of old age.

Some sooner than others...apparently...
but I don't want to go to Hell.
But many people can't wait to go there.

 

[Revoltingest]

In the US people believe that a cancer surgery that can save someone's life is equivalent to a mastoplasty done on a frivolous woman.

What a bizarre claim.
English must be a very very difficult language
to learn, if that's what you inferred.

 

[Estro Felino]

What a bizarre claim.
English must be a very very difficult language
to learn, if that's what you inferred.

Does the US Government pay for a cancer surgery that can save your life?

 

[Altfish]

Never.

But I would like you to express your views over universal healthcare.
My best friend was never hospitalized in her entire life. She is also childless.
Why should she give away money to some insurance company that will become richer and richer and whose CEO will probably spend that money on immoral activities?

I pay car insurance, I've never had a crash that was my fault, why should I give away money to some insurance ...... blah blah blah

 

[Revoltingest]

Does the US Government pay for a cancer surgery that can save your life?

Please, no Tuscan Trot (a short version of a Gish Gallop).