Healthcare is a privilege or a right?

[Kathryn]

Let's look at the here and now. America cannot be called the greatest country in the world when we have the second highest mortality rate among infants.

To use Smoke's term, frankly this is ********. See my post above.

I responded to your first post (which included this tidbit of misinformation) with an indepth response addressing socioeconomic factors that are INDEPENDENT OF available healthcare options (which are abundant in the US) and you have not addressed a single point of that post in any depth whatsoever.

What say you? How do you think that minority and poverty rates play into the overall pictures of the US rankings for infant mortality and life expectancy as compared to other, more homogenous, smaller, and less diverse countries which outpace us?

Do you see any correlation between our extreme size (landmass), differing climates, ratio of minorities, wide range of personal incomes, differing cultural norms and our infant mortality and life expectancy rates? Can you see how those two statistics (and the realities they address) could be positively addressed within a much smaller country, with fewer challenges related to diversity, size, population, etc.?

I mean, come on - Scandinavian and even European countries are not nearly as diverse as the US. And they're tiny compared to the US.

Surely a rational mind could see that the set of challenges are as far apart as east is from west.

When the countries which outpace us have the same ratios as we do when it comes to illegal immigration, minorities, diversity of climate, sheer size, and diversity of cultures and socioeconomic factors, then we can compare. We're simply not comparing apples to oranges.

 

[tumbleweed41]

To use Smoke's term, frankly this is bullship. See my post above.

Yes Kathryn. Sorry I did not indicate that we ranked second among what are considered developed nations. Not the entire world.

 

[Kathryn]

Yes Kathryn. Sorry I did not indicate that we ranked second among what are considered developed nations. Not the entire world.

Well, you have stated repeatedly that we rank second to the bottom in the WORLD, not "what are considered developed countries," so I believe I was correct to point out that error in facts. Glad you clarified your position.

Please state your source and then let's take a look at the list.

You continue to dodge my questions about cultural and socioeconomic diversity. Any reason for that?

It's ok if you've never really considered those facets before - it took me awhile to take note of those aspects of the problem as well. But think about it.

 

[Storm]

The question is how best to meet basic needs. If everyone were given all the basics in modern life, eg, quality health care, good fresh food, nice apartment, transportation, internet access (including hardware), vacations, good clothing....

So, the real problem here is that you're either
1) too stupid to understand what "basic needs" are, or
2) so dishonest you'll pretend to be stupid in order to bleat about slippery slopes.
Which is it?

our taxes would be even higher than they are.

Oh no! THE HORROR!

Ms K is perhaps too refined to ask the obvious question.....WTF?

When presented with the data she demanded, Kathryn immediately resorted to the bigoted assumption that the victims are lazy, selfish, and irresponsible. It's not that the services in place are inadequate, it's that poor parents just don't love their kids.

Which is precisely why I refused to give her specific examples.

 

[Revoltingest]

So, the real problem here is that you're either
1) too stupid to understand what "basic needs" are, or
2) so dishonest you'll pretend to be stupid in order to bleat about slippery slopes.
Which is it?

Geeze Louise....I'll chalk this up to a very bad mood.
You're usually so considerate & thoughtful.

Edit: Moderation comment removed.

 

[tumbleweed41]

OK Kathryn. The source is indicated in the graph on the previous page.

Lets address inequitable health care access. What exactly do I mean by inequitable health care access?
Well, lets look at the available means for the poor to get access to health care.
State Medicaid.- I can personally attest that if one makes one dollar over a set amount, you will not qualify. Now, this does not mean that you can now afford health insurance. I think we can all agree that the costs of health insurance are out of control. And there are many factors that can disqualify one from receiving State Medicaid.
So the person who works at what may be the only job available for him/her, makes too much for Medicaid, yet makes to little to afford decent health insurance. and none is offered by his employer, is left in limbo.
What are there options? Well, there is always the free clinic, unfortunately, that is so overwhelmed that they cannot get registered for three months. Of course by then, they can go to the Emergency Room because they have progressed beyond a simple doctors visit to a condition that will require the Hospital by law to give them at least minimal treatment. This racks up a huge medical bill that you may think will simply be written off by the hospital. However, again through personal experience, the city owned hospital decides to turn over all past due bills to a collection agency. this collection agency will accept nothing under a certain minimal amount in monthly payments. (remember, during this process, your health problem has only been temporarily abated in the emergency room.)
But wait! The free clinic can now get you in, but there is a problem, they, like the emergency room, can only treat the immediate symptoms. They do not have the means to actually treat the problem.
Meanwhile, because of the financial hardships caused through missing work to take care of all the redtape, application interviews and the fact that the condition itself has not been addressed, you have to move to a cheaper apartment.
(Good news! Your recent Medicaid application is under review!!)
Oops, you did not let the collection agency know about your new address, so when they served you with a court order demanding information on all your financials, you did not get it. Now their attorney goes to the judge without these court ordered financials and the judge issues a contempt citation against you.
Three weeks later, you play it a little to close on a yellow light and get pulled over. No big deal, you screwed up, now you have to pay a ticket. But the officer sees the contempt warrant on his computer and takes you to the county lockup.
It is there that you find out that the law requires a $1000 dollar cash only bond before you can be released. Now, no bondsman does cash only bonds, because by definition, these are bonds that are not returned when you go to court.
So after four days of incarceration, your spouse is finally able to come up with your bond money through every means legal and you are released.
Unfortunately, you no longer have a job. But the good news is, you finally qualify for State Medicaid!!
Two weeks later you go to court on the contempt citation, your thousand dollar bond is handed over to the collection agency to pay some of your hospital bill, you get to finally see a doctor and start regular treatments for your condition.

And that is only one (very true) example of inequitable access to health care.
If you think that all those programs out there to help the under and uninsured gain access to health care are equal to those with adequate health insurence, you are dead wrong. (pun intended)

 

[tumbleweed41]

Cultural and Socioeconomic diversity.
America is not unique in it's immigration pressure, high unemployment, cultural diversity, or economic status.
What is somewhat unique is the vast landmass that is occupied by its citizens.
As I illustrated earlier, our current system does not provide equatable access to health care. Even though America as a whole spends more on health care than any other country.
In other words, Americans spend more on health care than any other country in the world, yet a smaller percentage of our population receives equatable and antiquate health care than any other developed nation.
Let's not excuse this, let's fix it!

 

[Kathryn]

Cultural and Socioeconomic diversity.
What is somewhat unique is the vast landmass that is occupied by its citizens.

America is not unique in it's immigration pressure, high unemployment, cultural diversity, or economic status.

What? The US is very unique when it comes to it's level of illegal immigration, and immigration in general, and it's cultural diversity, which of the four elements you mentioned, are the two I stated in my posts.

And what specifically do you mean by "economic status" and in what ways based on your definition are we NOT unique. We are the largest economy in the world. I think that in itself presents unique challenges and opportunities.

As I illustrated earlier, our current system does not provide equatable access to health care.

No offense, but you gave one person's example, and as with most personal examples, we don't know all the facts - just your rendition of a story (though it may be 100 percent true and accurate, I'm not saying it's not - it's just impossible to really research and qualify).

For every unique story you tell, I can tell you one of excellent medical care given to the uninsured. I am looking for trends and causes, not simply personal anecdotes - though those usually are interesting.

By the way, I'm not trying to disparage your use of stories and personal anecdotes to put a face on a situation, just showing that that tactic has limitations and must be fleshed out with other facts.

In other words, Americans spend more on health care than any other country in the world, yet a smaller percentage of our population receives equatable and antiquate health care than any other developed nation.
Let's not excuse this, let's fix it

On this we can agree! I would love to see those who truly need and cannot afford healthcare be adequately provided with necessary and cost effective medical options, and will support any fiscally responsible plan that offers this to those truly in need.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Kathryn, when it comes to per capita population, the US ranks bellow Canada in immigration. The EU nations rank either right above, or directly below the US in per capita immigration.

The CATO Institute finds little or no effect of immigration on native born citizen income in the US.

 

[tumbleweed41]

And yes, that was my own personal experience on the inequitable access to heath care in the US.
Fortunately, I have now found a job with an Australian owned company that will be providing my family with adequate health insurance in about three months.

 

[Kathryn]

And yes, that was my own personal experience on the inequitable access to heath care in the US.
Fortunately, I have now found a job with an Australian owned company that will be providing my family with adequate health insurance in about three months.

Fantastic, and congratulations! See, I knew you could do it.

 

[Smoke]

In contrast, those countries who rank above us with better infant mortality rates, also have more homogenous populations, they are much smaller countries, in both population and size, and they have less diversity.

The more congruent a society is, and the less diversity, the easier it is to create and maintain successful programs to meet the less diverse needs of that society. The more diversity, the more challenging this becomes. The US is one of the, if not THE, most diverse nations with one of the largest populations in the world.

Our challenges differ greatly from the challenges of Iceland, Singapore, Japan, or Switzerland, just to name a few countries with lower infant mortality rates.

<--snip-->

We don't rank higher for the same reasons our infant mortality rate is higher than some countries - we have a more diverse population and a higher ratio of minorities, who have a higher ratio of poverty.

We DO spend a lot of money on healthcare - which is why we are a superpower worldwide when it comes to health research and cutting edge technology. It's also why people flock to the US to take advantage of our health resources.

Free enterprise encourages research, innovation, and resources. Who takes advantage of those available options depends on many factors - not simply availability.

As I've stated repeatedly, when we figure out WHY some demographic groups do not access available programs, we can figure out how to facilitate a higher rate of enrollment and participation.

But first we need to figure out WHY - and that takes objective analysis and a deep understanding of the diverse cultures within our American society.

We can't cloud our analysis with our own agendas or preconceived notions, or we will never accurately pinpoint the reasons and therefore reach a true solution.

So basically, our health statistics is bad cause we got so many colored folks, and colored folks don't know how to take advantage of all the wonderful programs we already have.

The problem with that theory is that African-American numbers aren't dragging us down as much as you think. If we take our longest-lived demographic group -- white women -- and compare them to the women of all those nice homogeneous countries, we still don't look so good. In fact, we actually drop from 38th in the world to 40th.

 

[Mister Emu]

Healthcare is a privilige, one we should all have... but a privilige nonetheless.

Services, no matter how necessary, are not rights.

 

[Revoltingest]

Healthcare is a privilige, one we should all have... but a privilige nonetheless.
Services, no matter how necessary, are not rights.

....until enuf people decide they are....then, voila! They are!
Personally, I'm not a big fan of rights whose provision requires the gov't
to take someone else's money by force. But I'm not gonna win that battle.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/19/brussels-declares-vacation-time-human-right/

 

[indian tea]

Healthcare is a privilige, one we should all have... but a privilige nonetheless.

Services, no matter how necessary, are not rights.

correct! as good christians we shouldn't care for the sick and less fortunate
let them die

 

[Mister Emu]

correct! as good christians we shouldn't care for the sick and less fortunate
let them die

How you got that from my statement that everyone should have healthcare I'll never know.

 

[Walkntune]

correct! as good christians we shouldn't care for the sick and less fortunate
let them die

Are you saying there should not be a separation between church and state?

 

[tumbleweed41]

And what specifically do you mean by "economic status" and in what ways based on your definition are we NOT unique. We are the largest economy in the world. I think that in itself presents unique challenges and opportunities.

Yes, the per capita income is higher in the US than in any other developed country, what is interesting is that the economic growth rate of nearly every other developed country has been far outpacing the US since 1950.
In fact, the highest economic growth rates in many of these countries occurred after the implementation of socialized or nationalized health care.

 

[indian tea]

Are you saying there should not be a separation between church and state?

considering Christ, for a Christian to advocate healthcare in this day and age as a "privellige...and continue to let people literally die because they don't have healthcare....

well...

I guess it was lost on you..and mr emu lol

IRONY
1
: a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning &#8212;called also Socratic irony

2
a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance

3
a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play &#8212;called also dramatic irony, tragic irony

Examples of IRONY

1. <LI class=vi-learners itxtvisited="1">a writer known for her clever use of irony <LI class=vi-learners itxtvisited="1">&#8220;What a beautiful view,&#8221; he said, his voice dripping with irony, as he looked out the window at the alley. <LI class=vi-learners itxtvisited="1">She described her vacation with heavy irony as &#8220;an educational experience.&#8221; <LI class=vi-learners itxtvisited="1">It was a tragic irony that he made himself sick by worrying so much about his health. <LI class=vi-learners itxtvisited="1">That's just one of life's little ironies. <LI class=vi-learners itxtvisited="1">The irony of the situation was apparent to everyone.
2. He has a strong sense of irony.

Origin of IRONY

Latin ironia, from Greek eir&#333;nia, from eir&#333;n dissembler First Known Use: 1502

 

[Mister Emu]

considering Christ, for a Christian to advocate healthcare in this day and age as a "privellige...and continue to let people literally die because they don't have healthcare....

Where did I advocate the bolded section?

Please explain how you drew anything resembling that from my statement that healthcare is something everyone should have?