Healthcare is a privilege or a right?

[Revoltingest]

one mans service is another mans need
how about a barter system? That way we call all provide a service and receive of services that we need

Barter is really inconvenient. Some of my tenants offer services I just don't need:
- High power industrial lasers
- Drag queen performance
- Cookie delivery
- Wind chimes <--- I've gotten about $2000 worth of'm in rent, but geeezus....I can only use so many. It gets pretty noisy around here in a stiff wind.
- Studenting
- High speed encrypted databases
- Crappy imported furniture
- Japanese language lessons
- More & more & more useless (to me) stuff
Banks, utilities, & taxing authorities don't barter anyway.

 

[Kathryn]

like the aborignals say "we are caretakers"

I think they have the right idea.

Well, they have the basics down. If all we had to do was provide a standard of living on par with the aborigines for every single person in the world, maybe that's feasible via tax dollars.

Unfortunately most people expect more - and some expect more at the cost of others and never understand the concept of contributing positively to society and reaping the benefits of a responsible lifestyle. It's THOSE people I have a problem with and don't care to subsidize.

 

[Kathryn]

So, leave the minorities out of it. You never did account for the fact that life expectancy for white women in the U.S. is still lower than the life expectancy for women in 39 other countries.

Lifestyle choices and genetics have the biggest impact on personal health. I can go to the doctor once a month for a physical but if I'm eating at Mickey Ds every day, smoking, and/or drinking too much, it won't do me much good.

 

[Revoltingest]

Unfortunately most people expect more - and some expect more at the cost of others and never understand the concept of contributing positively to society and reaping the benefits of a responsible lifestyle. It's THOSE people I have a problem with and don't care to subsidize.

We see that here, with some posters talking about how they live simply & don't pay much in taxes, yet they demand that taxes for the actual taxpayers (ie, someone else)
increase, so as to assuage their personal sense of charity. I'm not saying that's wrong, but sticks in my craw that it's so easy to shift the burden to some one else.

 

[Midnight Pete]

The US healthcare system is a FOR PROFIT system. Till that gets resolved, then healthcare here will always be a privilege.

Let's hope there never comes a day when you can't afford health insurance, ninerbuff. That would be tragic.

 

[Kathryn]

We see that here, with some posters talking about how they live simply & don't pay much in taxes, yet they demand that taxes for the actual taxpayers (someone else)
increase, so as to assuage their personal sense of charity. I'm not saying that's wrong, but sticks in my craw that it's so easy to shift the burden to some one else.

True dat.

You know, people are always pointing out that "poor people work hard too - so what's your point when you say you work hard for your money? Why is your work more valuable than their work - it's not fair!"

I have several issues with that approach.

First of all, the hard working poor are not the people I have a problem with, and certainly not the ones I mind helping. I have a problem with the sorry *** poor. I have a problem with the irresponsible poor. I have a problem with ANYONE, rich or poor, who thinks it's my responsibility to clean up after their irresponsible choices.

A few days ago, I ran into a Hispanic woman I know whose family would be classified as the "working poor." My husband and I really like this family, and we try to help them whenever we can. When we moved, we asked her if she had any family members who wanted to make some extra money by cleaning our house after we moved out and she and a couple of cousins came out and did an EXCELLENT job cleaning. Not only did we pay them very well, we also had a TON of stuff that we told them they were welcome to go through and take anything they wanted. They took every single item - which was fine with us.

My husband has also hired her husband several times to do things like wash oilfield vehicles and equipment down, that sort of thing. He's always done a great job. We've also had their cousins cater some events - and THEY did a great job.

We do what we can to reward this extended family whenever we can, because we have such respect for their work ethic.

Well, anyway, we ran into them at a local restaurant and the woman's little sister was with them. She's about 22, and a single mom. Come to find out, she's just moved in with them. As you may know, I am on crutches right now, and so I asked the older woman, "Hey, do you know anyone who can come in and clean my house once a week for the next couple of months till I can do so myself?" After turning around to her sister and speaking in a flurry of Spanish, she turned around to me and said, "Sure, Juanita can do it for you Tuesday - she'll be there at 8 am." Juanita, by the way, speaks perfect English - so I have no idea why they were speaking in Spanish but that's OK.

Yesterday, Juanita showed up at 9:30 am - without calling to say she was running late. No problem - I was just sitting around. My house was NOT very dirty, but it was dusty and the floors needed to be mopped and swept and vaccuumed. In other words, this was LIGHT HOUSEWORK I was expecting - the kind a twelve year old can do.

I had all the cleaning supplies and gave her detailed instructions - which consisted of:

Mop
Sweep
Vaccuum
Dust
Clean bathrooms
Clean kitchen surfaces

Not complicated, right? Especially since everything was basically CLEAN anyway! And I had all the supplies!

I noticed that she was very quiet and sullen, but that's OK too - maybe she just felt awkward.

She worked for three hours. As I sat on the sofa with my leg elevated, I couldn't really follow her around to double check, and she did keep crossing my line of vision carrying supplies, so I assumed she was actually doing what I had asked her to do, though to be honest, I really couldn't figure out why this was taking three hours - but, oh well.

Normally I would have gone around and double checked on her work, and in fact, I did hobble into the master bath to check and pointed out to her that the mirror needed to be cleaned, and the shelves needed to be dusted - she said OK and I ASSUMED she went back and did so, even though when I pointed it out, she looked at me darkly and shrugged her shoulders and mumbled "ok."

MY BAD.

Now I believe in being generous, so I paid her SIXTY DOLLARS for this light housework. Yes, that's $20 an hour, tax free, but I knew she needed the money. She didn't say thank you, she simply took the check and said, "ok." She didn't even say goodbye when she left.

She didn't earn that money. She didn't even earn $30 of it. When my husband got home, he walked around the house and said, "So when is Juanita coming?" From the sofa, I said, "She's been here." "What! I sure can't tell it!" he said.

She had not dusted any bedrooms. She had not cleaned any toilets. She had not cleaned any mirrors. She had not vaccuumed about half the house. She had not wiped down a bit of the kitchen. Hell, all I think she did was work in my direct line of vision. I have no idea what she was doing in any of the other rooms - in fact, now that I think about it, that has me worried. What WAS she doing?

My point is this - she doesn't have a bright future. And she will be relying most likely on government assistance for her and handouts from other people for her and her baby, for a long time.

She could have made $60 a week from me indefinitely for 3 hours of work a week if she'd wanted to. But apparently she doesn't want to.

 

[Midnight Pete]

True dat.

You know, people are always pointing out that "poor people work hard too - so what's your point when you say you work hard for your money? Why is your work more valuable than their work - it's not fair!"

I have several issues with that approach.

First of all, the hard working poor are not the people I have a problem with, and certainly not the ones I mind helping. I have a problem with the sorry *** poor. I have a problem with the irresponsible poor. I have a problem with ANYONE, rich or poor, who thinks it's my responsibility to clean up after their irresponsible choices.

A few days ago, I ran into a Hispanic woman I know whose family would be classified as the "working poor." My husband and I really like this family, and we try to help them whenever we can. When we moved, we asked her if she had any family members who wanted to make some extra money by cleaning our house after we moved out and she and a couple of cousins came out and did an EXCELLENT job cleaning. Not only did we pay them very well, we also had a TON of stuff that we told them they were welcome to go through and take anything they wanted. They took every single item - which was fine with us.

My husband has also hired her husband several times to do things like wash oilfield vehicles and equipment down, that sort of thing. He's always done a great job. We've also had their cousins cater some events - and THEY did a great job.

We do what we can to reward this extended family whenever we can, because we have such respect for their work ethic.

Well, anyway, we ran into them at a local restaurant and the woman's little sister was with them. She's about 22, and a single mom. Come to find out, she's just moved in with them. As you may know, I am on crutches right now, and so I asked the older woman, "Hey, do you know anyone who can come in and clean my house once a week for the next couple of months till I can do so myself?" After turning around to her sister and speaking in a flurry of Spanish, she turned around to me and said, "Sure, Juanita can do it for you Tuesday - she'll be there at 8 am." Juanita, by the way, speaks perfect English - so I have no idea why they were speaking in Spanish but that's OK.

Yesterday, Juanita showed up at 9:30 am - without calling to say she was running late. No problem - I was just sitting around. My house was NOT very dirty, but it was dusty and the floors needed to be mopped and swept and vaccuumed. In other words, this was LIGHT HOUSEWORK I was expecting - the kind a twelve year old can do.

I had all the cleaning supplies and gave her detailed instructions - which consisted of:

Mop
Sweep
Vaccuum
Dust
Clean bathrooms
Clean kitchen surfaces

Not complicated, right? Especially since everything was basically CLEAN anyway! And I had all the supplies!

I noticed that she was very quiet and sullen, but that's OK too - maybe she just felt awkward.

She worked for three hours. As I sat on the sofa with my leg elevated, I couldn't really follow her around to double check, and she did keep crossing my line of vision carrying supplies, so I assumed she was actually doing what I had asked her to do, though to be honest, I really couldn't figure out why this was taking three hours - but, oh well.

Normally I would have gone around and double checked on her work, and in fact, I did hobble into the master bath to check and pointed out to her that the mirror needed to be cleaned, and the shelves needed to be dusted - she said OK and I ASSUMED she went back and did so, even though when I pointed it out, she looked at me darkly and shrugged her shoulders and mumbled "ok."

MY BAD.

Now I believe in being generous, so I paid her SIXTY DOLLARS for this light housework. Yes, that's $20 an hour, tax free, but I knew she needed the money. She didn't say thank you, she simply took the check and said, "ok." She didn't even say goodbye when she left.

She didn't earn that money. She didn't even earn $30 of it. When my husband got home, he walked around the house and said, "So when is Juanita coming?" From the sofa, I said, "She's been here." "What! I sure can't tell it!" he said.

She had not dusted any bedrooms. She had not cleaned any toilets. She had not cleaned any mirrors. She had not vaccuumed about half the house. She had not wiped down a bit of the kitchen. Hell, all I think she did was work in my direct line of vision. I have no idea what she was doing in any of the other rooms - in fact, now that I think about it, that has me worried. What WAS she doing?

My point is this - she doesn't have a bright future. And she will be relying most likely on government assistance for her and handouts from other people for her and her baby, for a long time.

She could have made $60 a week from me indefinitely for 3 hours of work a week if she'd wanted to. But apparently she doesn't want to.

You're all heart, Kathryn.

 

[Gunfingers]

You're all heart, Kathryn.

Whoa, this baby's off the charts.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We see that here, with some posters talking about how they live simply & don't pay much in taxes, yet they demand that taxes for the actual taxpayers (someone else)
increase, so as to assuage their personal sense of charity. I'm not saying that's wrong, but sticks in my craw that it's so easy to shift the burden to some one else.

I pay a crapload in taxes. Between income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes and everything else, about 40% of what I make goes to taxes... and I'm okay with that.

I definitely want that money to be used effectively and responsibly, but I have no issue at all with my "burden" as long as it goes to good use. And if there's a good reason to raise my taxes, I'm okay with that, too.

 

[Kathryn]

You're all heart, Kathryn.

Hey. Let me ask you a question. If you paid to have your oil changed, and your fluids topped off, and then you even tipped the guy because you're generous, and you found out after the fact that though he had topped off the fluids but hadn't even touched the oil, would you be pleased with that level of service or would you be ******?

 

[Midnight Pete]

Hey. Let me ask you a question. If you paid to have your oil changed, and your fluids topped off, and then you even tipped the guy because you're generous, and you found out after the fact that though he had topped off the fluids but hadn't even touched the oil, would you be pleased with that level of service or would you be ******?

I would stand up for my rights as a consumer, just like Michael Douglas in Falling Down.

And after I'd done that, I'd probably have to get lawyer.

 

[Kathryn]

By the way, when I was in my teens, my dad started his own business. For about three years, our family lived on a very strict, I mean RESTRICTIVE, budget. My mom and I realized that if we were going to have ANY extra money, we'd have to get it ourselves.

So we started cleaning houses. We did this for several years, and this was in addition to my other job. It was GREAT! Sometimes we did them together, and sometimes we did them individually. We were called back time and again and our customers were very dissappointed when we quit doing houses a few years later.

A few years ago I seriously considered doing this again - even hiring a couple of people and starting a company. I only decided not to because I went into real estate instead and enjoyed that more.

My point is that there is absolutely NOTHING shameful or degrading about cleaning houses - I really enjoyed doing a great job for other people and getting paid well for it. Profit margin is pretty high in that line of work!

I'm not too good to clean houses for a living. I'd do it again if I needed to.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Despite all the quibbling over sources for immigration, legal or illegal, the amount of "visible" minorities, and the rate of economic growth of the US compared to EU nations, the fact remains that the US has a higher infant morality rate than nearly every other developed country, and a lower longevity rate.
It is also a fact that the US spends more per capita than any other nation on health care.
This can be translated to higher cost for less service.
Obviously something needs to be done. As I said before, in my opinion, no developed nation in the 21st century should be called civilized that denies it's citizens equal access to health care despite financial standing.
Switzerland is a very good example of capitalism and socialized medicine working together in one of the best standards of health care in the world.
All health care payments are handled by private health insurance companies that are forbidden by law from making a profit on basic health care. The government pays for the basic insurance.
However, the insurance companies make a tidy profit off of 'upgrades', Those who can afford it and desire to spend the money on it can get coverage for private rooms, elective surgery, on-call house calls, etc.
Switzerland is considered one of the most capitalistic minded countries in the world. Yet they have found a system that allows for insurance companies to profit, while providing equal access to health care for all its citizens.
Overall health care costs have gone down, while the quality of overall health has gone up.

 

[Revoltingest]

I pay a crapload in taxes. Between income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes and everything else, about 40% of what I make goes to taxes... and I'm okay with that.
I definitely want that money to be used effectively and responsibly, but I have no issue at all with my "burden" as long as it goes to good use. And if there's a good reason to raise my taxes, I'm okay with that, too.

Since you & I clearly (according to some) aren't paying our "fair share", & since society needs much more to solve its ills, how much more should you be forced to pay?
Therein lies the rub....no matter how much you pay, demands for more will arise. You pay only 40%. I also have the AMT, personal property tax (on my calculators,
microwave, silverware, furniture dollies, etc), single business tax, intangibles tax, special assessments, payroll taxes, workers comp, capital gains tax, etc.
Some years, my tax rate isn't even possible to calculate when I have a loss, but still have to pay all these taxes, including tax on imputed income & phantom
income (eg, capital gains taxes on sale of assets which didn't go up in economic value, but did in inflated dollar value due entirely to inflation).

If you feel you should pay more, then you have the right to just donate it. Do you?

Switzerland is considered one of the most capitalistic minded countries in the world. Yet they have found a system that allows for insurance companies to profit, while providing equal access to health care for all its citizens.
Overall health care costs have gone down, while the quality of overall health has gone up.

Good points! There is a myth that the US is the bastion of capitalism & free markets. In that respect, we've been declining relative to the rest of the developed world for years now.
http://www.heritage.org/index/
If we're to increase the number of costly rights extended to citizens & non-citizen residents, then we'd better address our declining economic situation.
Towards that end, we need free markets & more enlightened regulation (ie, less of it with better efficacy).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you feel you should pay more, then you have the right to just donate it. Do you?

Sort of.

I don't donate to the government directly, but I do donate to charities that are supported with government funds, which I guess kinda cuts out the middleman.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sort of.

I don't donate to the government directly, but I do donate to charities that are supported with government funds, which I guess kinda cuts out the middleman.

Same here.
I prefer that approach to taxation.

 

[Smoke]

Lifestyle choices and genetics have the biggest impact on personal health. I can go to the doctor once a month for a physical but if I'm eating at Mickey Ds every day, smoking, and/or drinking too much, it won't do me much good.

Ah. That explains why the life expectancy in Bangladesh is 64. It's all that fast food, smoking, and drinking.

 

[Kathryn]

Ah. That explains why the life expectancy in Bangladesh is 64. It's all that fast food, smoking, and drinking.

OK - sorry, I left out environment. Lifestyle choices, genetics and environment greatly impact life expectancy.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Ah. That explains why the life expectancy in Bangladesh is 64. It's all that fast food, smoking, and drinking.

I think it also about who God likes better. Berkley ca has a life expectancy of 83 this is because God just likes us Liberals better. Their is no place in America more liberal then Berkley that why they have been choosen to live the longest.

 

[Smoke]

OK - sorry, I left out environment. Lifestyle choices, genetics and environment greatly impact life expectancy.

Also proper medical care. I mean, do you have health insurance just because you like to **** away money, or because you think it might be advantageous to have proper medical care when you need it?