Heaven Hell And Death

[Katzpur]

Hi Katzpur, In the scriptures, those inspired holy men wrote only those messages which GOD asked them to give to the people.
When a person reads those things---GOD's messages will be truly revealed to the TRUTH seeker. GOD didn't lie when HE said, "Seek and find"; "Knock and it shall be opened".

To many are as the five foolish virgins---satisfied with inadequate information---only half prepared. They started the cleansing of the "little sins which so easily beset", but failed to complete the job(for whatever reason).
OR they are accepting the wrong source---for that information.

They do and they will .

Whatever.

 

[kjw47]

If only it were that easy. Don't you think that most people who claim to be Christian genuinely believe that they do know and apply the truth that Jesus taught?

Most that claim to be Christian aren't taught Jesus' truths nor do they bother to learn them. Jesus' truths expose 99% of all religions claiming to be Christian as false religions--Why would they teach his truths?

 

[sincerly]

Whatever.

Hi Katzpur, Not "Whatever"--the Scriptures reveal that disobedience is a very serious activity in which one is engaged. And I'm sure that you agree.

 

[sincerly]

Most that claim to be Christian aren't taught Jesus' truths nor do they bother to learn them. Jesus' truths expose 99% of all religions claiming to be Christian as false religions--Why would they teach his truths?

Hi kjw47, Isn't that the warning Jesus was relaying to John in Rev.3:14-22---the Laodicean Church----? They think they are being lead by Christ, but it is a wolf in the "LAMB'S" clothing. They are still in their sins. Their "gold" is false doctrines. and they refuse to really study those valuable Scriptures for the necessary eye-salve to cure their blindness----which would cause them to do an about face/Repent and Overcome.

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Katzpur, Not "Whatever"--the Scriptures reveal that disobedience is a very serious activity in which one is engaged. And I'm sure that you agree.

I agree that disobedience is very serious. That is not where our difference of opinion lies.

 

[sincerly]

I agree that disobedience is very serious. That is not where our difference of opinion lies.

???----Isn't the root of religious disagreements concerning what GOD has said?

 

[Katzpur]

???----Isn't the root of religious disagreements concerning what GOD has said?

Yes, but I think most of us agree that we should be obeying God's commandments, don't you? That's why I said that our difference of opinion doesn't lie in believing that we should keep the commandments. We have many differences of opinion regarding various doctrines, from whether baptism is essential or not, to whether someone can lose his salvation or not, to whether one is saved by faith alone or by a combination of faiths and works. Every Christian who has an even rudimentary knowledge of the Bible can point to passages which support his opinion on different interpretations of doctrine. All all of them will tell you, "Well, it says such and such right here in the Bible!" And it does. It also says "such and such" and it's not always easy to reconcile the two. I sincerely believe that there is such a thing as "absolute truth," and I believe that God wants us to be able to discern between false and true doctrine. But, that said, I think it is much more important to Him how we live our lives and how we treat our fellow human beings than it is that we are correct with respect to each and every point of doctrine. Also, if each of us genuinely believes that the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is directing us in our beliefs, how is it that we can't seem to agree on things? Surely the Spirit wouldn't be telling you one thing and me another. The bottom line is that each of us is a product of our environment and upbringing, and we each have a completely unique brain and personality. We are almost guaranteed to see things differently from time to time, no matter how important it is to us to get to the truth. That's all I'm saying. I just have a hard time with people who insist that if you don't see things their way, you're not paying close enough attention to what the Bible says, because there couldn't possibly be more than one way of interpreting what it says.

 

[InChrist]

Yes, but I think most of us agree that we should be obeying God's commandments, don't you? That's why I said that our difference of opinion doesn't lie in believing that we should keep the commandments. We have many differences of opinion regarding various doctrines, from whether baptism is essential or not, to whether someone can lose his salvation or not, to whether one is saved by faith alone or by a combination of faiths and works. Every Christian who has an even rudimentary knowledge of the Bible can point to passages which support his opinion on different interpretations of doctrine. All all of them will tell you, "Well, it says such and such right here in the Bible!" And it does. It also says "such and such" and it's not always easy to reconcile the two. I sincerely believe that there is such a thing as "absolute truth," and I believe that God wants us to be able to discern between false and true doctrine. But, that said, I think it is much more important to Him how we live our lives and how we treat our fellow human beings than it is that we are correct with respect to each and every point of doctrine. Also, if each of us genuinely believes that the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is directing us in our beliefs, how is it that we can't seem to agree on things? Surely the Spirit wouldn't be telling you one thing and me another. The bottom line is that each of us is a product of our environment and upbringing, and we each have a completely unique brain and personality. We are almost guaranteed to see things differently from time to time, no matter how important it is to us to get to the truth. That's all I'm saying. I just have a hard time with people who insist that if you don't see things their way, you're not paying close enough attention to what the Bible says, because there couldn't possibly be more than one way of interpreting what it says.

I believe there is quite a bit of validity to much of what Katspur has expressed above. Each person who places their faith in Jesus Christ is unique with a unique background and set of experiences which impact their spiritual perspective and reading of the scriptures. I think the scriptures show that spiritual maturity and understanding is a process and speak of coming to a unity of the faith (Eph. 4:11-16). It is not as if once someones becomes a Christian they are immediately in perfect agreement with every other Christian or have reached perfect spiritual maturity and understanding. I see God as One who interacts on a personal basis with each person guiding and revealing more of Himself and His truths as one seeks to know Him more. As with any relationship this is on-going and takes time. I believe the important key is to continue prayerfully seeking God's interpretation and His will over our own when reading the scriptures and He will give understanding of the meaning He intended.

 

[kjw47]

Hi kjw47, Isn't that the warning Jesus was relaying to John in Rev.3:14-22---the Laodicean Church----? They think they are being lead by Christ, but it is a wolf in the "LAMB'S" clothing. They are still in their sins. Their "gold" is false doctrines. and they refuse to really study those valuable Scriptures for the necessary eye-salve to cure their blindness----which would cause them to do an about face/Repent and Overcome.

Jesus speaking to the laodecians basically said--if one is sitting on the fence, he will vomit them out. ---- This means one can partake of the table of God, yet on the other hand partake of the table of demons as well, and Jesus will not let them enter into Gods kingdom--satan is misleading 99% to do just that by transforming into an angel of light-2 cor 11:12-15)-- this means he is posing as all the false gods as well as using love and giving, anything good--because if he can get one to partake off the table of demons as well--they will lose no matter what they think they have done for God or think they have love for him--Jesus showed this clearly at Matt 7:21-23

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
???----Isn't the root of religious disagreements concerning what GOD has said?

Yes, but I think most of us agree that we should be obeying God's commandments, don't you? That's why I said that our difference of opinion doesn't lie in believing that we should keep the commandments. We have many differences of opinion regarding various doctrines, from whether baptism is essential or not, to whether someone can lose his salvation or not, to whether one is saved by faith alone or by a combination of faiths and works. Every Christian who has an even rudimentary knowledge of the Bible can point to passages which support his opinion on different interpretations of doctrine. All all of them will tell you, "Well, it says such and such right here in the Bible!" And it does. It also says "such and such" and it's not always easy to reconcile the two. I sincerely believe that there is such a thing as "absolute truth," and I believe that God wants us to be able to discern between false and true doctrine. But, that said, I think it is much more important to Him how we live our lives and how we treat our fellow human beings than it is that we are correct with respect to each and every point of doctrine. Also, if each of us genuinely believes that the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is directing us in our beliefs, how is it that we can't seem to agree on things? Surely the Spirit wouldn't be telling you one thing and me another. The bottom line is that each of us is a product of our environment and upbringing, and we each have a completely unique brain and personality. We are almost guaranteed to see things differently from time to time, no matter how important it is to us to get to the truth. That's all I'm saying.

I just have a hard time with people who insist that if you don't see things their way, you're not paying close enough attention to what the Bible says, because there couldn't possibly be more than one way of interpreting what it says.

Hi Katzpur, I'll start with you last sentence first. It concerns the "" what GOD has said?""
The "disagreements" are between the opinions of persons over that which GOD HAS made known.
The reconciliation one has to accomplish is not necessarily between two opinions which may be false, but to make sure that one's understanding of the message is that which GOD is consistent in giving. Let scripture interpret scripture. The "thus saith the Lord" or "It is written".
The Doctrines/teachings of GOD are expressed in/by multiple prophets writings and their fulfillment as seen in the writings expressed in the NT.

I concur, GOD'S Truth are "absolute truth". The Holy Spirit will not give conflicting messages. GOD'S Decalogue is still as valid/in force as when it was uttered on Sinai and presented to Moses on those stone tablets.
"Doctrinal differences" are settled by the scriptural to scriptural comparisons.
Yes, GOD wants us to have a right relationship to HIM and our fellow human Beings and that includes obedience to the principles which HE has established for such.

However, Isn't the influences of "upbring and environment" a great part of what one should discard as one enters into a full following of the True GOD?(i.e.) those ideas and habits which are contrary to those of GOD? Wasn't Abraham called away from an idolatrous nation and family?
Yes, what was good for Paul and Silas is OK for one, but the beliefs of dad as in the case of Abraham---No. We all come from being "sinners".
Does it "seem right" OR is it right?---make a right "search of the scriptures".

 

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by sincerly
???----Isn't the root of religious disagreements concerning what GOD has said?




Hi Katzpur, I'll start with you last sentence first. It concerns the "" what GOD has said?""
The "disagreements" are between the opinions of persons over that which GOD HAS made known.
The reconciliation one has to accomplish is not necessarily between two opinions which may be false, but to make sure that one's understanding of the message is that which GOD is consistent in giving. Let scripture interpret scripture. The "thus saith the Lord" or "It is written".
The Doctrines/teachings of GOD are expressed in/by multiple prophets writings and their fulfillment as seen in the writings expressed in the NT.

I concur, GOD'S Truth are "absolute truth". The Holy Spirit will not give conflicting messages. GOD'S Decalogue is still as valid/in force as when it was uttered on Sinai and presented to Moses on those stone tablets.
"Doctrinal differences" are settled by the scriptural to scriptural comparisons.
Yes, GOD wants us to have a right relationship to HIM and our fellow human Beings and that includes obedience to the principles which HE has established for such.

However, Isn't the influences of "upbring and environment" a great part of what one should discard as one enters into a full following of the True GOD?(i.e.) those ideas and habits which are contrary to those of GOD? Wasn't Abraham called away from an idolatrous nation and family?
Yes, what was good for Paul and Silas is OK for one, but the beliefs of dad as in the case of Abraham---No. We all come from being "sinners".
Does it "seem right" OR is it right?---make a right "search of the scriptures".

I still think that what it gets down to is this... If you and I both read the scriptures but interpret them differently, one of us has to be wrong. The Holy Spirit isn't going to tell one of us one thing and the other one something entirely different. One of us is apparently not listening to the Spirit, right? Which one of us would that be? Or do you have another explanation?

 

[Muffled]

Well, what do you know... Muffled and Katzpur have found something they can agree upon.

I suppose it is always possible that God could get tired of it all and decide to chuck it but somehow I get the feeling that God isn't likely to feel that way about it ever.

 

[Muffled]

The Holy Spirit will not die. However, notice this verse in Ezek.18:4, "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. "
The Hebrew word(nephesh) translated to the English word "soul" is the word seen in Gen.2:7 and translated "soul"( in the NIV it is 'living being".)
This word is translated

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 753
AV — soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 47
Therefore, when one looks at those verses one does not see anything within a living thing" that has life of itself apart from the said "living thing"---whether "living" in the water, creatures of the air , or land animals---all have "life"/sustained by oxygen(breath).

I believe the verse does contain that "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;."
The Soul is the combination of flesh and spirit so when one of those (the flesh) dies the soul has died. However the spirit lives on as the resurrection of Lazarus proves because if the spirit were dead it would have done no good to raise the body to life.

John 11:43 And when he had thus spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 He that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave-clothes; and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

 

[Muffled]

Hi Muffled, And where did you get your understanding of the "author"?

1John 4:1-3, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

Can you not see that the "Bible" will be indispensable until the coming of Jesus??
The Holy Spirit "brings to mind" that which one has obtained. Remember, the five foolish virgins were told to go purchase(needs to be done prior).

i believe from the Bible.

I believe this is correct for those who do not know Jesus.

I believe you ought to get your quote right: Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

There is nothing there about what I have obtained although He does that also.

I believe this is out of context. When the Rapture comes one needs to take food and water and extra batteries for the flashlight because it could be a long wait but there is no doubt in my mind that the Holy Spirit will remind me to do that when the time comes. I won't need to take my Bible or remember Bible verses.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
???----Isn't the root of religious disagreements concerning what GOD has said?

Hi Katzpur, I'll start with you last sentence first. It concerns the "" what GOD has said?""
The "disagreements" are between the opinions of persons over that which GOD HAS made known.
The reconciliation one has to accomplish is not necessarily between two opinions which may be false, but to make sure that one's understanding of the message is that which GOD is consistent in giving. Let scripture interpret scripture. The "thus saith the Lord" or "It is written".
The Doctrines/teachings of GOD are expressed in/by multiple prophets writings and their fulfillment as seen in the writings expressed in the NT.

I concur, GOD'S Truth are "absolute truth". The Holy Spirit will not give conflicting messages. GOD'S Decalogue is still as valid/in force as when it was uttered on Sinai and presented to Moses on those stone tablets.
"Doctrinal differences" are settled by the scriptural to scriptural comparisons.
Yes, GOD wants us to have a right relationship to HIM and our fellow human Beings and that includes obedience to the principles which HE has established for such.

However, Isn't the influences of "upbring and environment" a great part of what one should discard as one enters into a full following of the True GOD?(i.e.) those ideas and habits which are contrary to those of GOD? Wasn't Abraham called away from an idolatrous nation and family?
Yes, what was good for Paul and Silas is OK for one, but the beliefs of dad as in the case of Abraham---No. We all come from being "sinners".
Does it "seem right" OR is it right?---make a right "search of the scriptures".

I still think that what it gets down to is this... If you and I both read the scriptures but interpret them differently, one of us has to be wrong. The Holy Spirit isn't going to tell one of us one thing and the other one something entirely different. One of us is apparently not listening to the Spirit, right? Which one of us would that be? Or do you have another explanation?

Hi Katzpur, The key word is arriving at a different comclusion of the meaning of the scripture--it is a fault of one of the persons----Not that the Holy Spirit inspired the Prophet wrong.
As Jesus told those Pharisees and Scribes, Moses wrote the truth, but they were not listening to him. What spirit were they "believing"? Jesus said the "father of lies".
Did they ever change their minds? NO! and a mock trial and crucifixion took place as GOD KNEW and it had been prophesied that they would "deny the Messiah".
It is the Written Scriptures that one should follow and not "feelings of the spirit leading."
One tries the "spirit" by the inspired writings of the Bible and not by what men claim are "traditions and decrees made by men".

 

[sincerly]

I believe the verse does contain that "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;."
The Soul is the combination of flesh and spirit so when one of those (the flesh) dies the soul has died. However the spirit lives on as the resurrection of Lazarus proves because if the spirit were dead it would have done no good to raise the body to life.

John 11:43 And when he had thus spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 He that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave-clothes; and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Hi Muffled, Yes, that was the translation of the Hebrew. That molded "dust" didn't acquire "life" until GOD gave it "life" by "breathing that life into it.
"Spirit" in the NT is translated from the Greek "pneuma" from which the English words pneumatic(air associated), pneumonia, etc are derived. In the NT, none of the "spirit" words are associated with the false teaching of something inside one that lives on after the death of the person(good or bad).

As Jesus rightly said, "I am the resurrection and the life". Surely, Jesus Christ can restore life to all(the dust one returned to at death) who had life initially.

Muffled, as Jesus told Nicodemas, "Ye must be born again". Jesus was attesting to the fact that Since Adam and Eve Sinned, they died the second death. (no more living forever as intended by GOD at Creation.) But all will live the first "life" and GOD will gather HIS jewels from the obedient/repentant of all ages.

 

[sincerly]

i believe from the Bible.

I believe this is correct for those who do not know Jesus.

I believe you ought to get your quote right: Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

There is nothing there about what I have obtained although He does that also.

I believe this is out of context. When the Rapture comes one needs to take food and water and extra batteries for the flashlight because it could be a long wait but there is no doubt in my mind that the Holy Spirit will remind me to do that when the time comes. I won't need to take my Bible or remember Bible verses.

Hi Muffled, you didn't change my meaning and I wasn't quoting the entire verse.
When Jesus comes the second time, where do you find that the Redeemed will need to have--"food water, batteries/flashlight"??

 

[Muffled]

Hi Muffled, Yes, that was the translation of the Hebrew. That molded "dust" didn't acquire "life" until GOD gave it "life" by "breathing that life into it.
"Spirit" in the NT is translated from the Greek "pneuma" from which the English words pneumatic(air associated), pneumonia, etc are derived. In the NT, none of the "spirit" words are associated with the false teaching of something inside one that lives on after the death of the person(good or bad).

As Jesus rightly said, "I am the resurrection and the life". Surely, Jesus Christ can restore life to all(the dust one returned to at death) who had life initially.

Muffled, as Jesus told Nicodemas, "Ye must be born again". Jesus was attesting to the fact that Since Adam and Eve Sinned, they died the second death. (no more living forever as intended by GOD at Creation.) But all will live the first "life" and GOD will gather HIS jewels from the obedient/repentant of all ages.

I don't know how one can view that as false teaching when the Bible is full of references to it. Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image,
John 4:24 God is a Spirit:

 

[Muffled]

Hi Muffled, you didn't change my meaning and I wasn't quoting the entire verse.
When Jesus comes the second time, where do you find that the Redeemed will need to have--"food water, batteries/flashlight"??[/quote]

It is a simple extrapolation. We don't use oil lamps for light now, we use flashlights although one could bring a kerosene lantern if one wished but I would think a flash light would be sufficient.

It is simple logic. If one is waiting a long time one needs sustenenace. No-one really knows how long the wait will be other than the fact that in the parable it was long enough for people to run out of oil in their lamps. Maybe a candy br and a Pepsi will do although some think things go better with Coke.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Muffled, Yes, that was the translation of the Hebrew. That molded "dust" didn't acquire "life" until GOD gave it "life" by "breathing that life into it.
"Spirit" in the NT is translated from the Greek "pneuma" from which the English words pneumatic(air associated), pneumonia, etc are derived. In the NT, none of the "spirit" words are associated with the false teaching of something inside one that lives on after the death of the person(good or bad).

As Jesus rightly said, "I am the resurrection and the life". Surely, Jesus Christ can restore life to all(the dust one returned to at death) who had life initially.

Muffled, as Jesus told Nicodemas, "Ye must be born again". Jesus was attesting to the fact that Since Adam and Eve Sinned, they died the second death. (no more living forever as intended by GOD at Creation.) But all will live the first "life" and GOD will gather HIS jewels from the obedient/repentant of all ages.

I don't know how one can view that as false teaching when the Bible is full of references to it. Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image,
John 4:24 God is a Spirit:

Hi Muffled, Yes, Jesus did say that That GOD is a SPIRIT and all that worship HIM do so in "spirit and in truth", but that isn't something that is a physical part of one that can not die---along with the body.
GOD is not a physical part of the human anatomy.