Heaven Hell And Death

[sincerly]

Hi Muffled, you didn't change my meaning and I wasn't quoting the entire verse.
When Jesus comes the second time, where do you find that the Redeemed will need to have--"food water, batteries/flashlight"??[/quote]

Hi Muffled, you didn't change my meaning and I wasn't quoting the entire verse.
When Jesus comes the second time, where do you find that the Redeemed will need to have--"food water, batteries/flashlight"??[/quote]

It is a simple extrapolation. We don't use oil lamps for light now, we use flashlights although one could bring a kerosene lantern if one wished but I would think a flash light would be sufficient.

It is simple logic. If one is waiting a long time one needs sustenenace. No-one really knows how long the wait will be other than the fact that in the parable it was long enough for people to run out of oil in their lamps. Maybe a candy br and a Pepsi will do although some think things go better with Coke.

Notice the parable in Luke 19:12-27. Jesus has been at the right hand of GOD the Father in heaven since the Ascension; When HE returns for HIS Redeemed they will not need any of those things.
The next stop will be the Father's mansion.
While one is waiting for the event, Jesus said, "Occupy until I return." One should be "expectantly waiting and continuing to labor in HIS field".

 

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Muffled, Yes, that was the translation of the Hebrew. That molded "dust" didn't acquire "life" until GOD gave it "life" by "breathing that life into it.
"Spirit" in the NT is translated from the Greek "pneuma" from which the English words pneumatic(air associated), pneumonia, etc are derived. In the NT, none of the "spirit" words are associated with the false teaching of something inside one that lives on after the death of the person(good or bad).

As Jesus rightly said, "I am the resurrection and the life". Surely, Jesus Christ can restore life to all(the dust one returned to at death) who had life initially.

Muffled, as Jesus told Nicodemas, "Ye must be born again". Jesus was attesting to the fact that Since Adam and Eve Sinned, they died the second death. (no more living forever as intended by GOD at Creation.) But all will live the first "life" and GOD will gather HIS jewels from the obedient/repentant of all ages.



Hi Muffled, Yes, Jesus did say that That GOD is a SPIRIT and all that worship HIM do so in "spirit and in truth", but that isn't something that is a physical part of one that can not die---along with the body.
GOD is not a physical part of the human anatomy.

This is true. However I believe the spirit is attached to the brain at conception (or creation when it is breathed in). How this can be I don't know except that I am aware that the spirit can affect physical things as evidenced by the fact that God created the physical universe. I also believe that the spirit can be removed by removing that part of the brain ie a frontal lobotomy and the person is no longer a living soul but becomes a living zombie.

I believe that to be true but I also believe the spirit is there and does not die when the body dies and the fact that it isn't physical helps to reveal that it is not dependent on the life of the body.

 

[sincerly]

This is true. However I believe the spirit is attached to the brain at conception (or creation when it is breathed in). How this can be I don't know except that I am aware that the spirit can affect physical things as evidenced by the fact that God created the physical universe. I also believe that the spirit can be removed by removing that part of the brain ie a frontal lobotomy and the person is no longer a living soul but becomes a living zombie.

I believe that to be true but I also believe the spirit is there and does not die when the body dies and the fact that it isn't physical helps to reveal that it is not dependent on the life of the body.

Hi Muffled, That concept of "a soul that can not die" has been indoctrinated/taught for many years and is hard to remove from one's brain...especially, since that indoctrination was done at a time when the Scriptures were not readily available to the masses. Yes, the Scriptures are present for all today, but interpretation is a problem. One still wants to holr to that previous "thinking".
The Disciples are an example of that principle. Acts 1:6, "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

The Jewish leaders had preached/taught that the Messiah's coming was to restore the Jewish Nation---free it from the Roman Rule. However, the message of the Scriptures and John the Baptist was Not to Free one from the Roman Empire, but to seek and save lost mankind. Atone for sins. Fulfill the law/scriptures.

Ezek.18:4, 20 uses the same "nephesh" as is seen in Gen.2:7 and are translated as "soul"(that will die). That Word is,also, translated as "Living Being"(NIV); living person, life or lives-----In the 745 times it is used in the KJV. it never is said to be immortal(or equivalents) .

"Spirit"="ruahh" and all the times it is found 234 ---it is never associated with any modifiers which express immortal, deathless, never dying.
Therefore, Scripturally, mankind is subject to dying----everything about him.

 

[Muffled]

Hi Muffled, That concept of "a soul that can not die" has been indoctrinated/taught for many years and is hard to remove from one's brain...especially, since that indoctrination was done at a time when the Scriptures were not readily available to the masses. Yes, the Scriptures are present for all today, but interpretation is a problem. One still wants to holr to that previous "thinking".
The Disciples are an example of that principle. Acts 1:6, "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

The Jewish leaders had preached/taught that the Messiah's coming was to restore the Jewish Nation---free it from the Roman Rule. However, the message of the Scriptures and John the Baptist was Not to Free one from the Roman Empire, but to seek and save lost mankind. Atone for sins. Fulfill the law/scriptures.

Ezek.18:4, 20 uses the same "nephesh" as is seen in Gen.2:7 and are translated as "soul"(that will die). That Word is,also, translated as "Living Being"(NIV); living person, life or lives-----In the 745 times it is used in the KJV. it never is said to be immortal(or equivalents) .

"Spirit"="ruahh" and all the times it is found 234 ---it is never associated with any modifiers which express immortal, deathless, never dying.
Therefore, Scripturally, mankind is subject to dying----everything about him.

I believe this is the null hypothesis which only works if there is evidence that the text should have said something about it. However the scripture is not completely silent since God is a spirit and He is evelasting.

I believe I was not predisposed to see it that way but was taught by Jesus and scripture that it is that way.

I believe the soul is not immortal but the spirit is. In John 4 Jesus says He will give the woman water of eternal life but the gift He gives her is knowledge of her spiritual condition.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly Hi Muffled, That concept of "a soul that can not die" has been indoctrinated/taught for many years and is hard to remove from one's brain...

Ezek.18:4, 20 uses the same "nephesh" as is seen in Gen.2:7 and are translated as "soul"(that will die). That Word is,also, translated as "Living Being"(NIV); living person, life or lives-----In the 745 times it is used in the KJV. it never is said to be immortal(or equivalents) .

"Spirit"="ruahh" and all the times it is found 234 ---it is never associated with any modifiers which express immortal, deathless, never dying.
Therefore, Scripturally, mankind is subject to dying----everything about him.

I believe this is the null hypothesis which only works if there is evidence that the text should have said something about it. However the scripture is not completely silent since God is a spirit and He is evelasting.


I believe I was not predisposed to see it that way but was taught by Jesus and scripture that it is that way.

I believe the soul is not immortal but the spirit is. In John 4 Jesus says He will give the woman water of eternal life but the gift He gives her is knowledge of her spiritual condition.

Hi Muffled, Let's dispense with the Holy Spirit first. Yes, For the Believer the HOLY SPIRIT will make the Believer's body its "Temple". However, the unrepentant wicked person will not have the Holy Spirit residing in him because the sinner refuses to allow HIM control of his life.
Also, of the GODHEAD, the Scriptures only have affirmed that Jesus was promised to give HIS LIFE in exchange for the Repentant Sinner's death penalty.(And Jesus was assured by the Father that in HIS voluntary laying down of HIS LIFE that HE would be able to "take it again" in that plan of salvation.)

Jesus never taught the concept of a never dying soul(person/being). In Matt.10:28, Jesus said this: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul(life of the person/Being): but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." and that is what is seen in Mal.4:1-3--dust.; Rev.20:12-15.

The same GOD who is from "everlasting unto everlasting" gave those admonitions in Ezek. 18 to mankind---as was seen in Eden---"Ye shall die" and return to "dust". The "rauhh"/Hebrew=spirit is the same "pneuma"/Greek=spirit and can not be made to have different meanings. Jesus and the Scriptures confirm that fact.
Only GOD has immortality at present. (1Tim.6:13-16)
Redeemed mankind will exchange mortality at the second Coming of Jesus.(1Cor,15:53-54)

your is answered in the other colors.

 

[Pegg]

Our body will die anyway.

A soul has yet to be proven with any credibility to exist.

I think you've seen a soul and not realised you were actually looking at one.


the bible says that the 'body' is the soul

 

[sincerly]

I think you've seen a soul and not realised you were actually looking at one.


the bible says that the 'body' is the soul

Hi Pegg, Yes, that scientific evidence is readily seen by looking in the mirror and seeing one's own "soul"/Person/body.

 

[Muffled]

I think you've seen a soul and not realised you were actually looking at one.


the bible says that the 'body' is the soul

I believe I have never seen a scripture that says that.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by Pegg
I think you've seen a soul and not realised you were actually looking at one.

the bible says that the 'body' is the soul

I believe I have never seen a scripture that says that.

Hi Muffled, Go to the Hebrew from which Lev.21:11; Num.6:6 amd Hag. 2:13 were translated ----"nehphesh"="soul" and "body"; as well as "life" or lives and "persons". It is translated about 43 different ways.(Of 745 times it is used in the O.T.)

 

[Bick]

The wages of sin is death but the gift from God is eternal life. Romans 6:23. I believed for a long time on the theory of hell but through prayer and reading of the scriptures I believe God has revealed to me the truth. If we accept Jesus as personal Lord and saviour then we are promised eternal life but we reject him our body and soul will die.

Based upon the Scriptures, you are on the right track.
Throughout the Scriptures, life and death are contrasted, with Life being the reward and Death being the loss.
Indeed, the wages (or ration) of sin is death, as you quoted from Rom. 6:23, not "conscious eternal torment" as is the popular, orthodox theology.
In the N.T. the word "hell" was chosen by the compilers of most of the English Versions, in 11 places, where Jesus was usuing the word "Gehenna", in the Greek. This was a place outside the walls of Jerusalem where the rubbish and offal were dumped. It was kept burning to help clear the air of the stench and to consume the bodies of animals and criminals who were cast there.
Jesus warns his followers and the multitudes to live lives so they would not be judged by the Jewish court (Sanhedren) to die and be cast into the fires of Gehenna.
Those being judged were live humans, not some "disembodied spirit/soul".

 

[Harikrish]

Heaven, hell and the afterlife are all human speculations. The majority of humans don't even have a high school understanding of the natural sciences dealing with the physical world we live in. It is ridiculous to think some have attained an understanding of God who belongs to the realm of metaphysics.

Most of our understanding of God comes from people who heard voices in their head and saw apparitions they recognized as God. Those mental conditions have been identified as delusions or hallucinations. They are not special gifts, they are clinically treatable conditions.

 

[Muffled]

That's exactly the reasoning behind 33,000 different trinity religions--all say they have the HS teaching them--are there 33,000 different HS,s with 33,000 diffetrent truths--No. 1 cor 1:10)
The teachings of Gods son are in the pages of the bible--you say you don't need it? God commanded---This is my son the beloved whom I have approved--Listen to him--- How can one listen to Jesus without learning his truths so they can apply those truths?

I beleive it is easy to say but not always easy to have as fact. There is only one HS so there should only be one belief. My pastor does not agree with me but he does not hear directly from the HS and simply works on his own reasoning and what he was taught in seminary. This is my experience with my JW brother-in-law. He does not hear directly from the HS (and I have never met a JW who does) and simply parrots the teaching he received. This is my experience that most people have not heard directly from the HS as I have.

I beleive I keep my spiritual ears ready to hear the HS.

 

[Muffled]

It is, also, the reason why there are many who are following false teachers and the call seen in Rev. 18:4 was given. "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

I believe that is happening today as people separate themselves from churches that have become apostate.

 

[Muffled]

Heaven, hell and the afterlife are all human speculations. The majority of humans don't even have a high school understanding of the natural sciences dealing with the physical world we live in. It is ridiculous to think some have attained an understanding of God who belongs to the realm of metaphysics.

Most of our understanding of God comes from people who heard voices in their head and saw apparitions they recognized as God. Those mental conditions have been identified as delusions or hallucinations. They are not special gifts, they are clinically treatable conditions.

I believe you don't have a clue.

 

[kjw47]

I beleive it is easy to say but not always easy to have as fact. There is only one HS so there should only be one belief. My pastor does not agree with me but he does not hear directly from the HS and simply works on his own reasoning and what he was taught in seminary. This is my experience with my JW brother-in-law. He does not hear directly from the HS (and I have never met a JW who does) and simply parrots the teaching he received. This is my experience that most people have not heard directly from the HS as I have.

I beleive I keep my spiritual ears ready to hear the HS.

If you heard from the HS-- you would be a JW--you cannot find any other teachers who teach Jesus' truth'= the key.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
It is, also, the reason why there are many who are following false teachers and the call seen in Rev. 18:4 was given. "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

I believe that is happening today as people separate themselves from churches that have become apostate.

Muffled, exchanging "one poison" for another is still the deception of Satan. 2Pet.1:10,is still the Scriptural way to go.
"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
One needs to "recheck that list of beliefs" for scriptural errors that will allow one to "fall/perish".

 

[sincerly]

If you heard from the HS-- you would be a JW--you cannot find any other teachers who teach Jesus' truth'= the key.

kjw, the Holy Spirit speaks through the Scriptures that was "Inspired and preserved" by HIM.
I, personally, do not find that the Holy Spirit would condone some of your beliefs. But that's another topic.

 

[Harikrish]

I believe you don't have a clue.

There are no scientific clues in the Bible about heaven or hell. There is nothing mystical about death. Death is the absence of life.

In fact Islam offers a better and detailed description of heaven. Hinduism makes it redundant because reincarnations have local earthly destinations and not some remote paradise.

 

[Muffled]

If you heard from the HS-- you would be a JW--you cannot find any other teachers who teach Jesus' truth'= the key.

I believe I have never heard a JW say that he heard from the Holy Spirit so I could not verify by the gift of Discernment whether they actually do or not.

I beleive the Holy Spirit has never led me in that direction and He constantly refutes there erroneous interpretations.

I believe if JW teachers actually had the truth that they would teach it but they don't.

 

[Muffled]

sincerly said: ↑
It is, also, the reason why there are many who are following false teachers and the call seen in Rev. 18:4 was given. "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."



Muffled, exchanging "one poison" for another is still the deception of Satan. 2Pet.1:10,is still the Scriptural way to go.
"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
One needs to "recheck that list of beliefs" for scriptural errors that will allow one to "fall/perish".

I believe a church that is not apostate can not be equated to a church that is apostate.