I think that was called Gehenna.
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Hell is not a Pagan belief
- Thread starter Many Sages One Truth
- Start date
gnostic
The Lost One
outhouse said:
No, it isn't. (concerning part of your last statement in bold)
Judaism have no concept of "hell". Christians did change the Judaic word Sheol to mean something else but the original context of Sheol had absolutely nothing to do with a place of torment or punishment.
The Christian hell did derive their concept (as place of torment) from pagan concept, most notably from pre-Christian Hellenistic influences of Tartarus.
Whether it is "eternal" punishment is a pagan concept or a Christian twist on hell. Hell don't belong to Judaism.
outhouse
Atheistically
I agree that hell isnt part of judaism
BUT you are wrong
hell did evolve and its roots started in judaism with sheol and gehenna.
Judaism
does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on his or her life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah explains it as a "waiting room"
Like I said hell evolved over a very long period of time starting with judaism and into christianity.
You would be better off discussing the evolution then to discredit facts
outhouse
Atheistically
According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah.
outhouse
Atheistically
Yes, Gehenna, Not sheol or haides.
KJV translates Gehenna in English as hell fire.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit where dead things and refuse were destroyed not kept burning forever.
Thus, Gehenna is a fitting symbol for destruction not pain.
outhouse
Atheistically
yes a garbage pit that burned 24/7 though.
with that said there is no evidence so far that it ever existed.
gehenna was more the just a gabage pit or it would have been worded as such, instead we find the metaphors and parables and allegory with hell and sheol
gnostic
The Lost One
outhouse said:
outhouse said:
All references to Gehenna as being hell is only found in the Christian scriptures of the bible and not the Hebrew scriptures (or OT).
What (references) are found in the Rabbinical Judaism and mystic Kabbalah are mostly due to interpretations with Christian influences.
The Judaism Sheol had nothing to do with Christian Hell.
And Gehenna was not originally about a place of spiritual punishment (thus hell), as a physical place, which the Christians to metaphor for hell, and later Rabbinic Jews and Kabbal Jews changed.
outhouse
Atheistically
I agree
BUT your missing the evolution of hell over thousand years from such places. Ancient hebrews did not look at death and being buried as simply putting someone in a dirt pit or grave. There was mythology involved and it never stopped growing.
Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on his or her life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life
you do know the OT used the term Ge Hinom which was simular to the above.
please pay attention to this phrase
In both Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna was a destination of the wicked.
because that does tie in exactly what I stated.
The Book of Isaiah does not mention Gehenna by name, but the "burning place"
Rabbinical Judaism
The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin
Come on brother, brush up on hell with me and we will both learn more. But make no mistake,,,,,,,,,,,,,hell evolved into what it did today from judaism
there may have been times of slow and fast evolution of hell but the exact same thing can be said for the deities they worshipped as well
gnostic
The Lost One
Getting back to the OP.
Hell is a pagan concept.
It is found in ancient Egyptian and Greek religions. Neither of these religions called it hell, but both certainly influenced Hellenistic (pre-Christian) Judaism and Early Christian theologies.
Judaism before the Hellenistic period, didn't have the Final Judgement, in which the soul were judged by some sort of Netherworld deities like the participation of Osiris, Anubis and Thoth in the Hall of Truth, in Egyptian religion, or Hades and the 3 lesser deities (Minos, Rhadmanyths and Aeacus) in Greek religion or Persephone in the Orphic mystery religion. Clearly pagan influence.
The punishment in Egyptian religion was that the soul (or, in Egyptian, Ba) was eaten if the Ba weigh more than the feather of Truth (Ma'at) in the scale of Anubis. Judgement was recorded by Thoth, and the Ba (soul) was eaten by Ammut. That was the punishment for the guilty, complete annihilation or oblivion. This form of punishment is not found in Christian theology.
No, Hell was more like the Greek Tartarus. The soul or "shades" as the Greek called it, was sent to deepest part of the Earth, where they were either imprisoned, or punished in some way, depending on what they did when they were alive.
Hell is a pagan concept.
It is found in ancient Egyptian and Greek religions. Neither of these religions called it hell, but both certainly influenced Hellenistic (pre-Christian) Judaism and Early Christian theologies.
Judaism before the Hellenistic period, didn't have the Final Judgement, in which the soul were judged by some sort of Netherworld deities like the participation of Osiris, Anubis and Thoth in the Hall of Truth, in Egyptian religion, or Hades and the 3 lesser deities (Minos, Rhadmanyths and Aeacus) in Greek religion or Persephone in the Orphic mystery religion. Clearly pagan influence.
The punishment in Egyptian religion was that the soul (or, in Egyptian, Ba) was eaten if the Ba weigh more than the feather of Truth (Ma'at) in the scale of Anubis. Judgement was recorded by Thoth, and the Ba (soul) was eaten by Ammut. That was the punishment for the guilty, complete annihilation or oblivion. This form of punishment is not found in Christian theology.
No, Hell was more like the Greek Tartarus. The soul or "shades" as the Greek called it, was sent to deepest part of the Earth, where they were either imprisoned, or punished in some way, depending on what they did when they were alive.
gnostic
The Lost One
outhouse said:
The "burning place" may simply mean a metaphor for a physical place where human or even child sacrifice might have taken place, outhouse, and not a spiritual place. To me, you are trying to squeeze the physical location into spiritual one.
No where in the Hebrew scriptures or the OT Bible stated that Gehenna was a mythical place.
Prior to Christianity and Hellenistic Judaism, Judaism didn't believe in a spiritual place of punishment.
outhouse
Atheistically
yes tartarus was a part of the evolution, only in the bible its a place where what 200 angels were put.
one could also argue judaism and christianity have pagan roots and thus every part of their religions would be influenced by such. But BUT its not really pagan for the fact hell evolved into what it was from judaism and chrsitianity. Almost all ancient men had views of mythical afterlifes and these views changed.
outhouse
Atheistically
Again hell itself evolved and in doing so there are many different views of hell by different religions
do you forget this???
In both Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna was a destination of the wicked.
and you forget this
The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin
outhouse
Atheistically
Fact is
Judaism and Christianity both evolved during the period we both are discussing, so did their beliefs and views and practices.
As I stated earlier, it would be more productive to debate the evolution and what different time periods viewed if possible by what is really known.
Judaism and Christianity both evolved during the period we both are discussing, so did their beliefs and views and practices.
As I stated earlier, it would be more productive to debate the evolution and what different time periods viewed if possible by what is really known.
gnostic
The Lost One
outhouse said:
I found no evidences of this in the Hebrew writing (referring to the Old Testament Bible or the Tanakh). Can you provide a source for this?
And don't please quote me Isaiah 30:33.
Isaiah 30:33 said:
Topheth does not in any way indicate the afterlife or purgatory for the wicked, like the way you are referring to.
And you keep mentioning "Mishnah in Kiddushin" but you don't provide the passage. Please quote the source for this.
outhouse
Atheistically
I believe I pulled that straight from gehenna wiki.
with holding that passage 30;33. ge hinom is in the OT and still a mythical place
and im sure that belief evolved.
im heading to bed but I will research it tomorrow when im at work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
The picture of Gehenna as the place of punishment or destruction of the wicked occurs frequently in the Mishnah in Kiddushin 4.14, Avot 1.5; 5.19, 20, Tosefta t.Bere****h 6.15, and Babylonian Talmud b.Rosh Hashanah 16b:7a; b.Bere****h 28b. Gehenna is considered a Purgatory-like place where the wicked go to suffer until they have atoned for their sins. It is stated that the maximum amount of time a sinner can spend in Gehenna is one year, with the exception of five people who are there for all of eternity.[9]
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St Giordano Bruno
Well-Known Member
Why are so many Christians who subscribe to a hell so vague about its details? I would like to know its temperature for instance.
outhouse
Atheistically
I was actually hoping that you would quote the relevant passage from Mishnah, instead of what sources the Wikipedia use. I'm fussy in that way.
Im not sure its relevant, because as a historical place gehenna really has no evidence it existed as a 24/7 burning dump as described. If it had been there would be archeological evidence and allthough we have evidence from that time, nothing in the valley anywhere indicated it was used as such.
That would leave Gehenna as a mythical place which makes more sense.
outhouse
Atheistically
Thats exaclty why it evolved so often. There are no decent descriptions of such a place. No one has ever been there and came back from it. This leaves it open to live on in imagination of those who write about it. Thus everytime a mythical place of afterlife is written it changes with the new cultures belief.