Hell

[Sleeppy]

Yes and no.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

jesus didn't condone, nor advocate, suicide.
Love doesn't exclude self for loving all as one.
the cross, yoke, represents the idea of two people working together as a team, or as One.

Right, agree that Jesus didn't condone, nor advocate, suicide.
Just a a parent who sends their their youth off to war does Not send them off condoning or advocating suicide.
Since Jesus died for all - 1 John 1:7 - then all are covered by his self sacrifice.
However, since Not ALL accept Jesus, that is why Matthew 20:28 says that Jesus' ransom sacrifice covers MANY and does Not say ALL. Those of Hebrews 6:4-6 for example are Not covered.

Jesus too prayed his followers be One as he and his Father are on in John chapter 17.
They were a team, united in goal, belief, unity, faith, purpose, etc.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"Heaven, as conventionally described, is a place so inane, so dull, so useless, so miserable, that nobody has ever ventured to describe a whole day in heaven, though plenty of people have described a day at the seaside."
- George Bernard Shaw

The apostle John describes what those resurrected to heaven will do:
According to Revelation 5:9-10 they will serve mankind living on Earth.
They have two (2) jobs to do:
1) They serve as kings in that they take care of governmental responsibilities toward those living on Earth
2) They serve as priests taking care of spiritual duties toward the meek who inherit the Earth.
Those living on Earth will definitely have days at the seaside because according to Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14 Jesus will have earthly subjects, or citizens, from sea to shining sea.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

and which do you prefer?

I like my feet right here on terra firma ( Earth )
Most people do Not have a heavenly calling, but do what they can to remain alive right here on Earth.
That is why people have desires to seek medical help to prolong life on Earth.
We're originally created to live forever on Earth.
That is also why Jesus' promised Earth to humble meek people - Matthew 5:5

Which do you prefer ? How does Revelation 22:2 appeal to you that there will be healing for earth's nations.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I was raised to believe that Hell and suffering are eternal. Now?? I hope not. That concept seems very harsh punishment for such a short time on this planet.

Many were raised to believe in a suffering eternal hell. That is because many are taught about a myth-hell just taught as being Scripture when Not really what the Bible really teaches about biblical hell.
Especially when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted their philosophies and their theories and began teaching a non-biblical hell as being from the Scriptures.
Does anyone righteous go to hell ?______
The day righteous Jesus' died the dead Jesus went to biblical hell according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27
If the Bible's hell was a permanent place then Jesus would still be in biblical hell.
Jesus now has keys to unlock the Bible's temporary hell ( grave ) -Revelation 1:18
So, to me, the Bible's hell is simply man's temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
Both Jesus at John 11:11-14 and the old Hebrew Scriptures teach sleep, Not suffering, in death.
- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

In the account about Adam there is No mention of punishment after death, but just 'returning' to earth's dust.
- Genesis 3:19. Since ' death ' is the price tag that sin pays ( and Not death plus something ), then to pay an additional price would be double jeopardy.- Romans 6:7,23

 

[Thief]

I like my feet right here on terra firma ( Earth )
Most people do Not have a heavenly calling, but do what they can to remain alive right here on Earth.
That is why people have desires to seek medical help to prolong life on Earth.
We're originally created to live forever on Earth.
That is also why Jesus' promised Earth to humble meek people - Matthew 5:5

Which do you prefer ? How does Revelation 22:2 appeal to you that there will be healing for earth's nations.

I don't believe in the immortality of Man
not even in the garden

the body was made to form a unique spirit

the clay will stiffen....and fail

then God and heaven will come to see what stands from the dust

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The apostle John describes what those resurrected to heaven will do:
According to Revelation 5:9-10 they will serve mankind living on Earth.
They have two (2) jobs to do:
1) They serve as kings in that they take care of governmental responsibilities toward those living on Earth
2) They serve as priests taking care of spiritual duties toward the meek who inherit the Earth.
Those living on Earth will definitely have days at the seaside because according to Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14 Jesus will have earthly subjects, or citizens, from sea to shining sea.

Oh. My... that's about as narcissistic as anything I've read in weeks... with a side of megalomania.

No wonder many biblical scholars consider "revelations" to be heretical.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't believe in the immortality of Man
not even in the garden
the body was made to form a unique spirit
the clay will stiffen....and fail
then God and heaven will come to see what stands from the dust

I agree with you. I too don't believe in the immortality of Man, Not even in the Garden (Eden).
However, that does Not mean I don't believe in everlasting life ( living forever )
Adam and us are ' mortal '. The 'immortal' are death proof. We are Not death proof.
Mortal Adam was offered (Not immortality), but offered everlasting life as long as Not breaking God's Law.
In other words, Adam ( and us ) could gain ' everlasting life ' as in living forever on a paradisical garden-like Earth.
Adam chose to turn down living forever. We, on the other hand, because of Jesus, still have the choice to accept or reject God as Sovereign over us or not. Accepting the God of the Bible as the only real God means that we can have the original offer of living forever ( everlasting life on Earth ) that was offered to Adam before his downfall.
What stands (or will stand) 'from the dust' is a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection back to life on Earth as the prophet Daniel looked forward to according to Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13 under Christ's millennial reign over Earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Oh. My... that's about as narcissistic as anything I've read in weeks... with a side of megalomania.
No wonder many biblical scholars consider "revelations" to be heretical.

What country or nation do you know of that has No government ?
The government or kingdom that Jesus believed in was Not in men's imperfect governments or their kingdom rule, but Jesus believed in the government in which the prophet Daniel believed in according to Daniel 2:44
Man has tried every form, or every type of rulership possible and still can't bring Peace on Earth.
If we would Not have divine involvement into mankind's affairs, then Earth will become filled with violence as it was in the days of Noah. Righteous people would be killed off.
The 'Revelation 5:9-10 governing idea' started back with Jesus as mentioned at Luke 22:28-30.
Jesus, as ruling king of God's kingdom government, is Not narcissistic or megalomania.
Those who are chosen to govern with Christ for a thousand years are also Not that way, but humble.
They will bring an end to enemy death - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26 - besides ushering global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill. The violent wicked people will be gone forever according to Psalms 92:7

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

What country or nation do you know of that has No government ?

Somalia, but that's not the point, and 100% skips over my objection to your comment. Human governments exist-- and they are composed of actual human beings.

The government or kingdom that Jesus believed in was Not in men's imperfect governments or their kingdom rule, but Jesus believed in the government in which the prophet Daniel believed in according to Daniel 2:44

Kings? And the opposite-- serfs, slaves and the other lower-classes. If your statement is accurate? Then?

Jesus was both naive and kinda stupid. Modern humans are more ethical than Jesus, since he thought kings were a good idea...!

Man has tried every form, or every type of rulership possible and still can't bring Peace on Earth.

Mainly due to religions' inability to cooperate. Once we can get rid of religion? Likely a proper, non-bigoted government can be invented, without the crap such as 'slavery is okay' (christianity/islam) and 'women are second-class' (most islam and some christianity).

So, you were wrong-- humans have most definitely not tried every type of government possible.

We have not tried one completely devoid of religious bigotry and hate... (for one)

We have not tried a complete participatory democracy-- not possible until the modern day, but the rise of the internet does make it possible now.

so not even close.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The 'Revelation 5:9-10 governing idea' started back with Jesus as mentioned at Luke 22:28-30.
Jesus, as ruling king of God's kingdom government, is Not narcissistic or megalomania.
Those who are chosen to govern with Christ for a thousand years are also Not that way, but humble.
They will bring an end to enemy death - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26 - besides ushering global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill. The violent wicked people will be gone forever according to Psalms 92:7

No--- what you describe, here? Is Master/Slave. Which is kinda Medieval/Bronze-Age.

Modern humans are better than Master/Slave mentality. Alas, religion is not, especially christianity-- which teaches master/slave to it's followers...

 

[Thief]

I agree with you. I too don't believe in the immortality of Man, Not even in the Garden (Eden).
However, that does Not mean I don't believe in everlasting life ( living forever )
Adam and us are ' mortal '. The 'immortal' are death proof. We are Not death proof.
Mortal Adam was offered (Not immortality), but offered everlasting life as long as Not breaking God's Law.
In other words, Adam ( and us ) could gain ' everlasting life ' as in living forever on a paradisical garden-like Earth.
Adam chose to turn down living forever. We, on the other hand, because of Jesus, still have the choice to accept or reject God as Sovereign over us or not. Accepting the God of the Bible as the only real God means that we can have the original offer of living forever ( everlasting life on Earth ) that was offered to Adam before his downfall.
What stands (or will stand) 'from the dust' is a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection back to life on Earth as the prophet Daniel looked forward to according to Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13 under Christ's millennial reign over Earth.

the point of departure is living in flesh as if it be forever
it cannot

life eternal is in spirit....only
life with God would be in His realm

flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Human governments exist-- and they are composed of actual human beings.
Mainly due to religions' inability to cooperate. Once we can get rid of religion? Likely a proper, non-bigoted government can be invented, without the crap such as 'slavery is okay' (christianity/islam) and 'women are second-class' (most islam and some christianity).
So, you were wrong-- humans have most definitely not tried every type of government possible.
We have not tried one completely devoid of religious bigotry and hate... (for one)
We have not tried a complete participatory democracy-- not possible until the modern day, but the rise of the internet does make it possible now.
so not even close.

Back in the late 1700's a professor Alexander Tyler noted that a democracy can't last more than about 200 some years because once the people know how to get the money out of the treasury it causes economic collapse.

Of course, agree, human governments exist.... composed of actual human beings.
Scripture places them in a relative position to God's absolute position.
Human governments are to work in harmony with God's Golden Rule.
Also, agree about 'religions' inability to co-operate' including with the Golden Rule, and Jesus' New command to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as he did - John 13:34-35.

Jesus never held women as second class. God made a promise with a woman named Sarah that she would be mother of nations. Earth's nations which will be blessed with healing according to Revelation 22:2; Genesis 17:16

Human have Not tried the theocracy as mentioned at Daniel 2:44. The government that Jesus said to pray for when he taught to pray for God's kingdom to come " thy kingdom come....." . No hate, No bigotry, etc. is part of that coming kingdom government in the hands of Christ Jesus, as Prince of Peace, who will usher in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

Yes, ' we can get rid of religion ' ( the world's religions ) who think they sit as some sort of religious ' queen ' who will never see sorrow or mourning according to Revelation 18:7-9.

The United Nations already sees a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world.
With backing the U.N. can be strengthened to become God's Arm of the Law to go up against the world's corrupted religions.
A bad economy can make the wealth such religions have amassed look easy for the taking.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

the point of departure is living in flesh as if it be forever
it cannot
life eternal is in spirit....only
life with God would be in His realm
flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God

Agree, flesh ( physical ) can Not inherit the kingdom of God ( No rapture involved ) - 1 Corinthians 15:50
Those who inherit the kingdom with Jesus are ' resurrected ' to heavenly life - Revelation 20:6; 5:9-10; 2:10
To me, that does Not mean that Jesus does Not have earthly subjects, or citizens, of God's kingdom because Jesus will have subjects from ' sea to sea ' according to Psalms 72:8. Jesus aids those on Earth - Psalms 72:12-14.
Those earthly subjects or citizens are the humble meek who will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised at Matthew 5:5.
No one goes to heaven to die in heaven. The death problem exists here on Earth. Jesus will end death on Earth.
Enemy death will be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No--- what you describe, here? Is Master/Slave. Which is kinda Medieval/Bronze-Age.
Modern humans are better than Master/Slave mentality. Alas, religion is not, especially christianity-- which teaches master/slave to it's followers...

Jesus did teach at Matthew 16:24 to disown oneself for the sake of the kingdom ( thy kingdom come )
That is a voluntary denying of one's self in order to live by the Golden Rule, and live by Jesus' New commandment found at John 13:34-35 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus had.

Even people today who are 'working hard' toward something are sometimes referred to as slaving for it - Matthew 6:24
The master/slave relationship between Jesus and his followers is one of ' friendship', such as Jesus' friend mentioned at John 11:11; John 15:14-15. The preaching/teaching work which Jesus did - Luke 4:43 - thus hard working Jesus had confidence it would be carried on by his followers according to John 14:11-12. That is why Jesus gave the commission to his modern-day followers tell the good news message about God's kingdom government throughout the Earth as it is now globally being done today as Jesus said it would be at Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8.
So, working hard does Not mean being enslaved to something bad, but happy to volunteer one's self as Jesus did.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Back in the late 1700's a professor Alexander Tyler noted that a democracy can't last more than about 200 some years because once the people know how to get the money out of the treasury it causes economic collapse.

Oh look! Tyler was beyond wrong. How about that? Tyler was obviously one of those idiots who actually think that Kings and other Special Privileged Classes is a good idea....

He reminds me of The Donad Trumpenfurer.

So I dismiss his bat exhaust ideas as pure conjecture.

I submit, instead, the USA, which has lasted quite a bit more than 200 years, in spite of the very ugly idea that Special Classes of People-- with equally Special Privileges is too common among Religious Theology.

The bible is full of such language-- Special Status of Moses (above everyone else). Special Status of the Isralites -- and let's just murder all the indigenous people who had the "arrogance" to live in an area first. How Dare Those Native Peoples! Gawd has Picked This Land For Us to Use.

Indeed-- under Christianity, the USA followed the Old Testament model over and over-- wiping out or driving away, native peoples into concentration camps. They called it "Divine Right" or some such tomfoolery.

But Never Mind That-- your source, Tyler was an idiot.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Of course, agree, human governments exist.... composed of actual human beings.
Scripture places them in a relative position to God's absolute position.
Human governments are to work in harmony with God's Golden Rule.

Well, here's the thing. You failed to establish "ownership" of the so-called Golden Rule.

(You also failed to show that your god is the Real God™, and that your claim about What God Wants, is accurate... but nevermindthat)

See-- the "Golden Rule" or some variant of it, goes all the way back to the beginning of Civilization (writing, etc).

It pre-dates the bible by thousands of years. (which does not exist before about 500 BCE, and the current rendition did not exist until after about 300CE)

You can find versions of this rule in pretty much every civilization on the planet. Archeologists tell us that quite well enough. Civilizations that have risen and fallen, all before the biblical Abraham was even a gleam in his father's eye.

Each of these had some sort of god or gods, of course-- it seems to be a human failing, especially in Civilization's Infancy.

But you don't get to claim "god's law" here.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Jesus never held women as second class.

Ummmmmm.... no? You have a valid reason to think that Jesus (if he existed) was not a Good Jew, then?

Looking closely at Jewish Law, which we do have Jesus' words where he informs everyone he intends to Uphold The [Jewish] Law.

Which most definitely, and without question, has women Second Class-- indeed, they are chattel, to be owned (or dismissed or even sold) at the whim of the men.

Or are you going to make something up that isn't in the actual bible?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Human have Not tried the theocracy as mentioned at Daniel 2:44.

Hello! Have you never heard of the Dark Ages? You cannot get more Theocratic than that!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Jesus did teach at Matthew 16:24 to disown oneself for the sake of the kingdom ( thy kingdom come )
That is a voluntary denying of one's self

Voluntary or otherwise? Slavery is still slavery


Modern humans now recognize this is pure EVIL.

It is ample proof that the bible is a near-total failure, in morality and ethics, as compared to modern times.