Hello FIRST TIMER HERE

[gseeker]

Welcome!

I am probably going to be a stone in your foot when it comes to debating about christianity.

Hopefully it will be fun though

Blessings :namaste

Only if she lasts long enough. Lol This site can be frustrating to those without an open mind. Most Christians don't have open minds says this former Christian. Still, the fact that she admitted that the Bible has errors is a good sign she might survive on here.

 

[gnomon]

Welcome Lady B.

Lady B!!!!!!!

What does the B mean?

I'm guessing Brittany. But let's wait.

 

[Lady B]

Only if she lasts long enough. Lol This site can be frustrating to those without an open mind. Most Christians don't have open minds says this former Christian. Still, the fact that she admitted that the Bible has errors is a good sign she might survive on here.

Ha, I assure you I have a open mind and a solid shield. I have been debating Islam for 2 years while defending my own faith, I have dealt with much arrogance and disrespect. I am perhaps naive to believe I will be treated with more respect here. I dare say I do my best to respect others views and opinions and give ample space for those who seek to oppress. Sometimes I can only shake my head and wonder how is this even a genuine concept ? But alas to each his own, we all can be in error somewhere someway somehow....It Is only God without error, thanks be to him!

 

[Lady B]

Welcome Lady B.

Lady B!!!!!!!

What does the B mean?

I'm guessing Brittany. But let's wait.

the B is for Brande and thank you for asking, how thoughtful

 

[Lady B]

Only if she lasts long enough. Lol This site can be frustrating to those without an open mind. Most Christians don't have open minds says this former Christian. Still, the fact that she admitted that the Bible has errors is a good sign she might survive on here.

Numerical and inconsequential translational errors mind you ...not In agreement with content errors. Just wanted to clarify

 

[Lady B]

Welcome.
Learning Arabic? Impressive degree of dedication.
I look foreward to your posts.

so you speak arabic? I could use some help sometimes

 

[Pastek]

Welcome !

 

[gseeker]

Numerical and inconsequential translational errors mind you ...not In agreement with content errors. Just wanted to clarify

So you don't believe there are errors in the content between the Gospels and between the letters? And how do you ignore the later inclusions in mark and the adulterous woman? Id say that would would be content? I could easily show you content errors between the Gospels and letters but you have to believe in Occam's razor.

 

[Lady B]

So you don't believe there are errors in the content between the Gospels and between the letters? And how do you ignore the later inclusions in mark and the adulterous woman? Id say that would would be content? I could easily show you content errors between the Gospels and letters but you have to believe in Occam's razor.

You can easily show me your opinions of content errors, you can even research and find some scholars to back you up. But let me ask you, If you prove your point, the story of the adulteress woman was added after the closing of the cannon, what good will come of this? I also can go find many scholars to refute yours. The fact is it will make no difference to me, or you really. It is unimportant and the context and message of the bible does not change. If one day anyone shows absolute proof that negates the deity of Christ, I will despair. For this is the pillar of my faith. When a verse or chapter was admitted into the canon of scripture is just not worth debating sorry.

 

[9Westy9]

welcome to the forum

 

[Shuddhasattva]

It is. Why? Apocrypha. Many of them paint a very different picture of Jesus and his teachings, including the teaching that the god of the old testament, YHWH, is the demi-urge - either actively malevolent or clueless as to the absolute reality with a lot of resulting collateral damage.

Also, welcome.

 

[Lady B]

welcome to the forum

why thank you!!

 

[loverOfTruth]

Greetings ! My name is Brande I am a Christian woman, homeschooler,artist and apologist. I have been debating Muslims in a respectful way for 2 years now. I have studied Islam and the life of Mohammad as much as possible. I am now learning Arabic as a second language as advised by my Islamic friends, thanks! I have many questions I would like to ask and be answered back in a respectful manner. Hope this site will benefit us all, thanks for having me!

Peace Be Unto You. Looking forward to learn from you and answer your questions in a respectable manner. Welcome aboard.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Actually there were many gods that individual tribes worshipped until Mohammed entered the picture. I guess you could say Islam never was the worship of multiple gods because when Islam became Islam they did away with the household idols. You have to remember that Islamic people are derived from the Hebrew people and the Hebrews at one time had household idols and the Muslims took that belief with them when the tribe split. As to why I reject Christianity, have you ever read any of the works of Dr Ehrman? This was a man who became a born again Christian, went through Bible college, seminary, and a ivy league college to become a Bible translator. He discovered that there are over 400,000 errors between Bible manuscripts with whole sections of the Bible added after the fact, the adulterous woman and the entire ending of mark. That helped set me on the path that would lead me to reject the Christian faith.

Thanks for the correction that Islam came to abolish polytheism and Idol worship in Arabia. However, I do not agree with the statement that 'Islamic people are derived from the Hebrew people'.
From the lineage point of view, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) came from Abraham->Ishmael where as the Jews and Christians came from Abraham->Isaac.
From religion's point of view, Muslims believe that the simple message of 'Submission to GOD' has been revealed to all the prophets starting from Prophet Adam(PBUH) and then continuing with many other including Moses(PBUH) and Jesus(PBUH) and finally ending with Prophet Muhammad(PBUH).That message is..."There is no god but GOD", meaning that there is only ONE GOD with no partners. Everytime mankind turned their heels on the message of Monotheism or went far astray from God's message, a messenger was sent to remind them. Finally, God ended the chain of revelation with Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as stated in the Holy Qur'an :
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah(God), and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things." (Al-Qur'an 33:40)

 

[Lady B]

Originally Posted by gseeker
Actually there were many gods that individual tribes worshipped until Mohammed entered the picture. I guess you could say Islam never was the worship of multiple gods because when Islam became Islam they did away with the household idols. You have to remember that Islamic people are derived from the Hebrew people and the Hebrews at one time had household idols and the Muslims took that belief with them when the tribe split. As to why I reject Christianity, have you ever read any of the works of Dr Ehrman? This was a man who became a born again Christian, went through Bible college, seminary, and a ivy league college to become a Bible translator. He discovered that there are over 400,000 errors between Bible manuscripts with whole sections of the Bible added after the fact, the adulterous woman and the entire ending of mark. That helped set me on the path that would lead me to reject the Christian faith.




Again with all due respect you have some very important facts of Islam confused with the various pagan religions at the time of Mohammad. I do not make a habit of defending a religion so contrary to my own, However as I have studied in depth Islam I feel equipped to do so. The very foundations of Islam is monotheist, Mohammad did not come to reform Islam from polytheism, His message was reform the then pagan religions to which worshipped idols and bring all nations to Islam.

 

[gseeker]

Originally Posted by gseeker
Actually there were many gods that individual tribes worshipped until Mohammed entered the picture. I guess you could say Islam never was the worship of multiple gods because when Islam became Islam they did away with the household idols. You have to remember that Islamic people are derived from the Hebrew people and the Hebrews at one time had household idols and the Muslims took that belief with them when the tribe split. As to why I reject Christianity, have you ever read any of the works of Dr Ehrman? This was a man who became a born again Christian, went through Bible college, seminary, and a ivy league college to become a Bible translator. He discovered that there are over 400,000 errors between Bible manuscripts with whole sections of the Bible added after the fact, the adulterous woman and the entire ending of mark. That helped set me on the path that would lead me to reject the Christian faith.




Again with all due respect you have some very important facts of Islam confused with the various pagan religions at the time of Mohammad. I do not make a habit of defending a religion so contrary to my own, However as I have studied in depth Islam I feel equipped to do so. The very foundations of Islam is monotheist, Mohammad did not come to reform Islam from polytheism, His message was reform the then pagan religions to which worshipped idols and bring all nations to Islam.

So you refuse to believe the Bible now? Did not Abraham have household idols? Was not polytheism the religion of the time? Was Abrahams son with the concubine not Ishmael? Was Ismael not the beganing of the Arabic people? Did he not follow his father and mothers religious beliefs not to mention the beliefs of his people? Was not Mohammed the ancestor of Ishmael? Fast forward to Mohammed, did he not destroy the idolatry in the temples? If so, where did he find his God Allah? Do you not know that archeology has discovered a temple with a Pantheon of gods predating Mohammed and one of those gods names was Allah? The God of the moon.

Did you know that the Hebrew people had a Pantheon of gods as well and one of those gods El was the father other gods and even had a goddess for a wife. That's El as in Elohim the very God you worship.

Just as the Egyptians had one God more powerful than the others, so did the children of Abraham.

Please refute this if you can without calling the Bible a lie since you seem to believe the Bible is inherently correct on inspired by God.

I say that both Muslims and Christians are both wrong and that while Allah or Elohim might be the one true God, a book and mans perception cannot define that God.

 

[loverOfTruth]

So you refuse to believe the Bible now? Did not Abraham have household idols? Was not polytheism the religion of the time? Was Abrahams son with the concubine not Ishmael? Was Ismael not the beganing of the Arabic people? Did he not follow his father and mothers religious beliefs not to mention the beliefs of his people? Was not Mohammed the ancestor of Ishmael? Fast forward to Mohammed, did he not destroy the idolatry in the temples? If so, where did he find his God Allah? Do you not know that archeology has discovered a temple with a Pantheon of gods predating Mohammed and one of those gods names was Allah? The God of the moon.

Did you know that the Hebrew people had a Pantheon of gods as well and one of those gods El was the father other gods and even had a goddess for a wife. That's El as in Elohim the very God you worship.

Just as the Egyptians had one God more powerful than the others, so did the children of Abraham.

Please refute this if you can without calling the Bible a lie since you seem to believe the Bible is inherently correct on inspired by God.

I say that both Muslims and Christians are both wrong and that while Allah or Elohim might be the one true God, a book and mans perception cannot define that God.

Here's a detailed refutation of the false claim about Allah being the moon God : Reply To Robert Morey's Moon-God Allah Myth: A Look At The Archaeological Evidence
And here it is straight from the Qur'an : "And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah , who created them, if it should be Him that you worship." (Al-Qur'an 41:37)

And by the way, muslims also believe that there is nothing that can represent God(or God's words) wholly but the Qur'an is a book of guidance sent by God as He seemed fit for Humanity. As stated in the Holy Qur'an :

"Say, 'If the sea were ink for [writing] the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement.'" (Al Qur'an 18:109)

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him."
(Al-Qur'an 112:1-4)

"And We have not revealed to you the Book, [O Muhammad], except for you to make clear to them that wherein they have differed and as guidance and mercy for a people who believe." (Al-Qur'an 16:64)

"Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)." (Al-Qur'an 2:255)

Hope this clarifies. Peace.

 

[javajo]

Welcome!

 

[gseeker]

Occam's razor and your source is highly subject. Keep in mind, I'm not a Christian and I'm not picking on the Islamic faith. You can see that I also bring into question the worship of the Jewish and Christian Elohim.

Let me as you a two part question. Why is Mecca so important and what do the Muslims believe the stone in the dome of the rock is?

 

[Lady B]

Occam's razor and your source is highly subject. Keep in mind, I'm not a Christian and I'm not picking on the Islamic faith. You can see that I also bring into question the worship of the Jewish and Christian Elohim.

Let me as you a two part question. Why is Mecca so important and what do the Muslims believe the stone in the dome of the rock is?

Islam believes Mecca is where Abraham built his alter, then the koresh took it over and Mohammad reclaimed it for Islam. The stone was part of the original structure That Abraham and Ishmeal built.as far as your list of polytheistic tribes,I will only answer that They did not claim to be Islamic. Muslims do hold that Abraham was Muslim, However Their reasoning is He held to one God, therefore He must have been Islamic.