Hello

[Dr. James Robertson]

Welcome Doc,
I googled Heritage and found. It is beautiful. Looks like a place i could live.

It is God's country, isn't it? Of course we don't have much in the way of job opportunities, but it is a wonderful place to retire, or for someone who can live anywhere, like a truck driver or a telecommuter.

You said you counsel homosexual, i am a counselling student myself. May i ask what techniques you use when counselling them?

It varies with the individual, of course. First and foremost is to help them deal with the guilt. We hate the sin, not the sinner. My opinion is that the "fire and brimstone" approach just causes a person more frustration, and can often push them over the edge. As a counseling student, you probably know what I mean by that...it is something that is best not said. I hate to throw in the "G-factor", which, I'm sure you know, refers to jargon across platforms, but there are certain daemons that we don't want to bring to the foreground.

One important thing to keep in mind is that, despite the fact that it was removed from the DSM, homosexuality is a mental illness. A person who has one mental illness is likely to have others, and so I do my best to evaluate whether or not a person needs to be referred to professional counseling. I believe that the power of God can heal anyone, but I'm not sure that I have that much faith in myself! If a person does not appear to be in any danger of emotional breakdown, then we talk about ways to find comfort in Christ, and in the fellowship with others in the church. I have a pool of volunteer "buddies", and I will assign a buddy, usually a recovered homosexual, to help and guide a person, and to make sure that they are not left alone.

Of course, the last and most important step, is to find them a wife!

What can you teach me about counseling? Since my degree is not in clinical psychology, I know I have a lot to learn.

 

[Reptillian]

My doctorate is in computer science. I spent nine years in the field, until God finally called me to preach. I'm much happier now!

Giving up a career in computer science to become a preacher. I knew a brilliant mathematics grad student who dropped out in order to study theology...seems like a waste of a perfectly good intellect to me. I thought it was like Albert Einstien giving up physics to go search for the loch ness monster. May I ask what prompted you to switch? Were you always religious prior to becoming a preacher? did you have a profound religious experience?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Welcome to the forum, James.

It varies with the individual, of course. First and foremost is to help them deal with the guilt. We hate the sin, not the sinner. My opinion is that the "fire and brimstone" approach just causes a person more frustration, and can often push them over the edge. As a counseling student, you probably know what I mean by that...it is something that is best not said. I hate to throw in the "G-factor", which, I'm sure you know, refers to jargon across platforms, but there are certain daemons that we don't want to bring to the foreground.

One important thing to keep in mind is that, despite the fact that it was removed from the DSM, homosexuality is a mental illness. A person who has one mental illness is likely to have others, and so I do my best to evaluate whether or not a person needs to be referred to professional counseling. I believe that the power of God can heal anyone, but I'm not sure that I have that much faith in myself! If a person does not appear to be in any danger of emotional breakdown, then we talk about ways to find comfort in Christ, and in the fellowship with others in the church. I have a pool of volunteer "buddies", and I will assign a buddy, usually a recovered homosexual, to help and guide a person, and to make sure that they are not left alone.

Of course, the last and most important step, is to find them a wife!

What you're describing can be tremendously harmful. Please stop doing it.

 

[Dr. James Robertson]

Welcome to the forum, James.

What you're describing can be tremendously harmful. Please stop doing it.

Please explain. What am I doing that is harmful?

thanks

 

[Dr. James Robertson]

Giving up a career in computer science to become a preacher. I knew a brilliant mathematics grad student who dropped out in order to study theology...seems like a waste of a perfectly good intellect to me. I thought it was like Albert Einstien giving up physics to go search for the loch ness monster. May I ask what prompted you to switch? Were you always religious prior to becoming a preacher? did you have a profound religious experience?

Nothing that exciting, no. Although I have the aptitude for discreet mathematics and logic, it bores me to tears. I would much rather work with people.

Despite the best efforts of an educational system to convince me to give up my faith, I have always been a Christian.

 

[T-Dawg]

Please explain. What am I doing that is harmful?

thanks

Uh, you're coercing people into suppressing their sexuality, scarring them for life by telling them that their sexuality is a disease, indoctrinating them into a religion where even their thoughts are considered to be "sins," having people monitor their lifestyles to make sure they don't do things you disapprove of, and eventually setting them up with sexual partners hand-picked by you for the sole purpose of covering up their homosexuality?
At least, that's the impression I got from what you said...

Nothing that exciting, no. Although I have the aptitude for discreet mathematics and logic, it bores me to tears. I would much rather work with people.

Despite the best efforts of an educational system to convince me to give up my faith, I have always been a Christian.

I wish the educational system made efforts to convince me to give up my faith when I was younger. I had to figure out the flaws in faith myself. :yes:

 

[Dr. James Robertson]

Uh, you're coercing people into suppressing their sexuality, scarring them for life by telling them that their sexuality is a disease, indoctrinating them into a religion where even their thoughts are considered to be "sins," having people monitor their lifestyles to make sure they don't do things you disapprove of, and eventually setting them up with sexual partners hand-picked by you for the sole purpose of covering up their homosexuality?

No, I don't want anyone to suppress his sexuality, just to keep it to himself until he is married, and, of course, to keep it between himself and a member of the opposite sex, as God commands us to do.

Leviticus 20:13:

13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


I do not teach anyone that thoughts are sins. We can't control our thoughts, but we can control our actions. If we are having trouble controlling our actions, we can get help from the church, from God, and, hopefully from me, although I like to think that all of the good that I do is just God working through me.

I don't hand-pick a wife for anyone, but I have been known to introduce people. What's wrong with that?

I wish the educational system made efforts to convince me to give up my faith when I was younger. I had to figure out the flaws in faith myself. :yes:

There is nothing flawed about having faith. Did something happen to make you turn away from God?

 

[The Neo Nerd]

It is God's country, isn't it? Of course we don't have much in the way of job opportunities, but it is a wonderful place to retire, or for someone who can live anywhere, like a truck driver or a telecommuter.

It varies with the individual, of course. First and foremost is to help them deal with the guilt. We hate the sin, not the sinner. My opinion is that the "fire and brimstone" approach just causes a person more frustration, and can often push them over the edge. As a counseling student, you probably know what I mean by that...it is something that is best not said. I hate to throw in the "G-factor", which, I'm sure you know, refers to jargon across platforms, but there are certain daemons that we don't want to bring to the foreground.

One important thing to keep in mind is that, despite the fact that it was removed from the DSM, homosexuality is a mental illness. A person who has one mental illness is likely to have others, and so I do my best to evaluate whether or not a person needs to be referred to professional counseling. I believe that the power of God can heal anyone, but I'm not sure that I have that much faith in myself! If a person does not appear to be in any danger of emotional breakdown, then we talk about ways to find comfort in Christ, and in the fellowship with others in the church. I have a pool of volunteer "buddies", and I will assign a buddy, usually a recovered homosexual, to help and guide a person, and to make sure that they are not left alone.

Of course, the last and most important step, is to find them a wife!

What can you teach me about counseling? Since my degree is not in clinical psychology, I know I have a lot to learn.

Hi Doc,

I have to say i strongly and passionately disagree with your stance on homosexuality and as you have already seen there are other people who feel the same. And there will be more people coming at you with a lot of anger.

However i would love to discuss it further with you. There is a section in this forum for two people to have a one on one debate without others intruding. It would be great if you and i could start one of these to flesh the issue out.

Also quite separately i would love to start a thread on some of the stuff that i have learnt, because i believe your heart is in the right place and if something i can teach you can help your parishioners then it would be worth the effort.

What do you think of these two ideas?

-Q

 

[Skwim]

Please explain. What am I doing that is harmful?

thanks

For one thing, to treat any condition as an illness when it is not is to completely miss the opportunity to properly treat it, and could well do more harm than good. And because "mental illness," a true psychological condition, is so determined and defined by those in the field, it is their prerogative to decide which psychological conditions merit inclusion under the label. And, as it turns out, neither the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association consider homosexuality to be a mental illness.

Here is what the American Psychological of America has said.---emphasis added.
February 26, 2000 statement by the American Psychological Association

Guidelines for Psychotherapy with Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Clients

Attitudes Toward Homosexuality and Bisexuality

Guideline 1. Psychologists understand that homosexuality and bisexuality are not indicative of mental illness.

Guideline 2. Psychologists are encouraged to recognize how their attitudes and knowledge about lesbian, gay, and bisexual issues may be relevant to assessment and treatment and seek consultation or make appropriate referrals when indicated.

Guideline 3. Psychologists strive to understand the ways in which social stigmatization (i.e., prejudice, discrimination, and violence) poses risks to the mental health and well-being of lesbian, gay, and bisexual clients.

Guideline 4. Psychologists strive to understand how inaccurate or prejudicial views of homosexuality or bisexuality may affect the client’s presentation in treatment and the therapeutic process.

source
​

From the American Psychiatric Association

Is Homosexuality A Mental Disorder?
No. All major professional mental health organizations have gone on record to affirm that homosexuality is not a mental disorder. In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association’s Board of Trustees removed homosexuality from its official diagnostic manual, The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Second Edition (DSM II). The action was taken following a review of the scientific literature and consultation with experts in the field. The experts found that homosexuality does not meet the criteria to be considered a mental illness.
source

​

But what is most troubling here, even appalling, is that a person uneducated in the field of medicine, such as yourself, would take it upon himself to treat someone they perceive as having a medical condition. This is not only hubris but outright irresponsible if not dangerous.

As 9-10ths_Penguin said, please stop doing it. You have no business, professionally or ethically, treating homosexuals as if they were mentally ill. In fact, from the little we do know about you, it doesn't appear you're qualified to counsel anyone on any emotional or behavioral issues. Of course, if you do have the appropriate training I think we'd all appreciate knowing what it is. However that you dismiss the findings outlined in the DSM, and continue to regard homosexuality as a mental illness I rather doubt it. Moreover this says even more about your prejudicial attitude---no doubt fostered by some evangelical based disgust---and arrogance. You're treading on dangerous ground here. One with a possible law suite waiting.

 

[Dr. James Robertson]

Hi Doc,

I have to say i strongly and passionately disagree with your stance on homosexuality and as you have already seen there are other people who feel the same. And there will be more people coming at you with a lot of anger.

However i would love to discuss it further with you. There is a section in this forum for two people to have a one on one debate without others intruding. It would be great if you and i could start one of these to flesh the issue out.

Also quite separately i would love to start a thread on some of the stuff that i have learnt, because i believe your heart is in the right place and if something i can teach you can help your parishioners then it would be worth the effort.

What do you think of these two ideas?

-Q

I think that would be a great idea. Just let me know what I need to do.

 

[Quagmire]

I think that would be a great idea. Just let me know what I need to do.

All it takes is for one or the other of you to start a thread in this section: One-on-One Debates - Religious Education Forum

Whichever of you starts the thread, please remember to to include the name of the person you'll be debating in the thread title.

And welcome to RF btw, Doc.

 

[Dr. James Robertson]

For one thing, to treat any condition as an illness when it is not is to completely miss the opportunity to properly treat it, and could well do more harm than good. And because "mental illness," a true psychological condition, is so determined and defined by those in the field, it is their prerogative to decide which psychological conditions merit inclusion under the label. And, as it turns out, neither the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association consider homosexuality to be a mental illness.

There was a lot of pressure from "gay rights" groups to remove homosexuality from the DSM, and it was done, but that does not mean that it was right in the eyes of God, or that it is right for any individual to engage in such behaviour. Many people believe that it is OK to get a divorce, or commit adultery, but God tells us that this is not acceptable, any more than it is acceptable to be homosexual. The fact that people are doing it does not make it right.

Exodus 20:14:
14Thou shalt not commit adultery.


Matthew 5:32:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


Please tell me...if being "gay" is so wonderful, why do so many of them commit suicide, and why do so many of them use drugs?

But what is most troubling here, even appalling, is that a person uneducated in the field of medicine, such as yourself, would take it upon himself to treat someone they perceive as having a medical condition. This is not only hubris but outright irresponsible if not dangerous.

I don't need a degree in medicine to know that homosexuality is wrong, or to be able to tell that a person is having emotional problems. As I mentioned, I do refer people to professional counseling when they have other mental health issues.

As 9-10ths_Penguin said, please stop doing it. You have no business, professionally or ethically, treating homosexuals as if they were mentally ill.

Actually, seeking help from God is the only thing that has worked for homosexuals. Telling them that it is OK to indulge in sexual perversion is not the answer. What business do the "mental health professionals" have in condemning a man to hell?

 

[ninerbuff]

One important thing to keep in mind is that, despite the fact that it was removed from the DSM, homosexuality is a mental illness. A person who has one mental illness is likely to have others, and so I do my best to evaluate whether or not a person needs to be referred to professional counseling.
What can you teach me about counseling? Since my degree is not in clinical psychology, I know I have a lot to learn.

I strongly disagree with your statement about homosexuality being a mental illness. If you aren't familiar with the endocrine system and how hormones affect not only your body, but also your mind, I highly suggest you read up on it.
And making that statement while admitting that clinical psychology isn't your major was humerous.

 

[ninerbuff]

I've never heard of a church getting vandalized, except for some of the negro churches in Atlanta, and I think they finally figured out that it was just one person doing that. We just don't have those kinds of problems in Heritage.

Lol, you said negro.:cover:

 

[ninerbuff]

No, I don't want anyone to suppress his sexuality, just to keep it to himself until he is married, and, of course, to keep it between himself and a member of the opposite sex, as God commands us to do.

Leviticus 20:13:

13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


I do not teach anyone that thoughts are sins. We can't control our thoughts, but we can control our actions. If we are having trouble controlling our actions, we can get help from the church, from God, and, hopefully from me, although I like to think that all of the good that I do is just God working through me.

Yep that's why religion started............to control other people's actions.

 

[Dr. James Robertson]

I strongly disagree with your statement about homosexuality being a mental illness.

Well, I've never known anyone who actually had a mental illness and was willing to admit to it. That is why people who are mentally ill need to seek help from others. Self-diagnosis doesn't work too well.

 

[texan1]

Please tell me...if being "gay" is so wonderful, why do so many of them commit suicide, and why do so many of them use drugs?

Frankly, because of messages they get from people like yourself, even if you feel you are trying to "help". They are God's creation. Why question God's creation? Their sexual orientation is not something they can change. If you were in their position, and your family, your church and your society made it loud and clear that you were abnormal, disgusting, and were destined for hell.....that would be pretty tough don't you think? Being gay does not in and of itself cause emotional problems. It's the horrible stigma and prejudices attached to it.

And it is very strange to me that people quote that darn Leviticus passage in the Bible to validate their prejudice towards homosexuals. What about all of the other passages in that book that we ignore? i.e:
"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

Civil, compassionate people recognize that we can't kill a child for mistreating their parents, or stone a person to death for adultery, or keep another human being as a slave. Why then are folks so attached then to that other Leviticus passage? Why are Christians able to pick and choose like that? Jesus never mentions homosexuality but he talks an awful lot about giving to the poor. You wouldn't think that was the case though, considering how much emphasis is placed on condemning homosexuality in the Christian Church. It's seems to be such a distraction from actual meaningful work. It is something that I find very upsetting.

Anyway, now that I've rattled on and on...welcome to the forum! And as you have probably realized, if you want to get people riled up, all you have to do is start discussing homosexuality!

 

[Smoke]

One important thing to keep in mind is that, despite the fact that it was removed from the DSM, homosexuality is a mental illness. A person who has one mental illness is likely to have others, and so I do my best to evaluate whether or not a person needs to be referred to professional counseling. I believe that the power of God can heal anyone, but I'm not sure that I have that much faith in myself! If a person does not appear to be in any danger of emotional breakdown, then we talk about ways to find comfort in Christ, and in the fellowship with others in the church. I have a pool of volunteer "buddies", and I will assign a buddy, usually a recovered homosexual, to help and guide a person, and to make sure that they are not left alone.

Of course, the last and most important step, is to find them a wife!

What can you teach me about counseling? Since my degree is not in clinical psychology, I know I have a lot to learn.

You certainly do have a lot to learn.

First and foremost, and apart from the harm you're inflicting on on gay men, stop foisting gay husbands off on straight women who trust you. Think about it. Do you want your daughters to marry gay men? Why would you purposely inflict such harm on these women?

Second, admit your lack of credentials and competence, and stop counseling gay men. You're making things worse.

 

[ninerbuff]

There was a lot of pressure from "gay rights" groups to remove homosexuality from the DSM, and it was done, but that does not mean that it was right in the eyes of God, or that it is right for any individual to engage in such behaviour. Many people believe that it is OK to get a divorce, or commit adultery, but God tells us that this is not acceptable, any more than it is acceptable to be homosexual. The fact that people are doing it does not make it right.

It was removed in 1973!!! Gay rights groups hadn't even formed!
And again, using scripture doesn't prove it was a mental illness.

Exodus 20:14:
14Thou shalt not commit adultery.


Matthew 5:32:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Lol, this is funny because it states adultery towards men yearning another woman. You do realize gay men like men?

Please tell me...if being "gay" is so wonderful, why do so many of them commit suicide, and why do so many of them use drugs?

Treading on bad ground here doc. You will now need to show proof of what you just stated.

I don't need a degree in medicine to know that homosexuality is wrong, or to be able to tell that a person is having emotional problems. As I mentioned, I do refer people to professional counseling when they have other mental health issues.

You don't need a degree for an opinion on homosexuality, no. This is the problem with many christian religions, deciding on what is right and wrong for individuals.

Actually, seeking help from God is the only thing that has worked for homosexuals. Telling them that it is OK to indulge in sexual perversion is not the answer. What business do the "mental health professionals" have in condemning a man to hell?

Again using scripture doesn't prove that this is right for the individual. Show proof that help from god (in a medical book) is the only thing that works for homosexuals. My older brother is gay. A very happy one because our family supports his decisions and doesn't treat him like an outcast. He has friends that are also unphased by his choice of sexuality. As a homosexual, if the people you care about treat you like a regular person, then there isn't much reason to be unhappy.

 

[Smoke]

Please tell me...if being "gay" is so wonderful, why do so many of them commit suicide, and why do so many of them use drugs?

Because of people like you. You are the cause.

They listen to people like you, and their parents do, too, and so do their schoolmates. And they are left hopeless because they know they can never be what fools and bigots tell them they MUST be to be acceptable. So they kill themselves, and they use drugs, and they drink and they do other stupid things, because they hate themselves.

Because of you.

You are an apostle of despair.