Hey, ID Creationists!

[exchemist]

To me, how nature works is discovered in things that happen now.
The extrapolation of that into the past to find out how the universe began and how life started, is, as you say, a presumption of natural causes for natural phenomena, and cannot discover anything, just presume it.
Should it be called "science" with that presumption of natural causes and looking at things that cannot be tested?
If ID is not called science then possibly not.
To start off with the laws of nature seems a big ask when surely laws do not exist without the material to be laws over. The existence of both is also a presumption which it seems to me cannot be discovered, just presumed.

That's where you are entirely wrong.

The essence of science is that it can be tested, by further observation of nature. All the theories we have developed about the past, whether they be the past disposition of continents or the ancestry of organisms, are testable by observations we can make now. They are all theories that make predictions about what we should be able to find, now, in nature, if we look in the right places.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I didn't say that you were naive. I said that that way of thinking was naive.

No one is getting a Nobel for "proving" that COVID was made in a lab.

All you'd get is Feds chasing you, social media banning you and the MSM smearing you.

World governments are hell-bent on "proving" that COVID is naturally occurring - because they don't want to **** off China.

And even if none of this happened - no one is going to become Creationists over it.

People are going to believe what they are going to believe regardless of "evidence".

You don't take into account the current international scene as well as basic human nature - so that is why I said that that way of thinking was naive.

Not you - but that way of thinking.

And that sounds like gullible conspiracy nonsense to me.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

And that sounds like gullible conspiracy nonsense to me.

.
They called President Trump a racist for calling the new virus the "China Virus" - because it came from China.

Don't let the fact that the West Nile virus, Spanish flu, Ebola Hemorrhagic Fever, Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, Japanese Encephalitis, etc - exist.

It's only considered "racist" by the media when it was named after China - because they get a lot of money from China, and they don't want t upset them.

 

[tas8831]

Since ToE is all phoney it should be super
easy to give at least one item to show its all wrong.

One would think...

 

[Audie]

One would think...

We are still waiting.

 

[Audie]

.
They called President Trump a racist for calling the new virus the "China Virus" - because it came from China.

Don't let the fact that the West Nile virus, Spanish flu, Ebola Hemorrhagic Fever, Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, Japanese Encephalitis, etc - exist.

It's only considered "racist" by the media when it was named after China - because they get a lot of money from China, and they don't want t upset them.

Nah. Its coz orange man bad

 

[SkepticThinker]

.
They called President Trump a racist for calling the new virus the "China Virus" - because it came from China.

Don't let the fact that the West Nile virus, Spanish flu, Ebola Hemorrhagic Fever, Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, Japanese Encephalitis, etc - exist.

It's only considered "racist" by the media when it was named after China - because they get a lot of money from China, and they don't want t upset them.

Um, okay. Not sure what this has to do with anything.

I thought he was kinda stupid for calling it "China Virus" when it's actual name is COVID-19, coronavirus or SARS-COV-2. You do have to wonder why he did that. I also thought he sounded stupid when he suggested we should inject disinfectant into our bodies to fight COVID-19, among other things.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Nah. Its coz orange man bad

Well, he is a piece of **** as a human being.

 

[Audie]

Um, okay. Not sure what this has to do with anything.

I thought he was kinda stupid for calling it "China Virus" when it's actual name is COVID-19, coronavirus or SARS-COV-2. You do have to wonder why he did that. I also thought he sounded stupid when he suggested we should inject disinfectant into our bodies to fight COVID-19, among other things.

Ive the same respect for trump as i do for people who deliberately misrepresent things he said or did.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ive the same respect for trump as i do for people who deliberately misrepresent things he said or did.

He's said enough terrible things without anyone having to misrepresent him.

 

[Audie]

He's said enough terrible things without anyone having to misrepresent him.

Which leads to the comment on the mature of those who do

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Um, okay. Not sure what this has to do with anything.

Hollywood, the MSM, Democrats, big tech, sports entertainment - you name it - bend over backwards not to upset China - because they make a lot of money off of China.

They didn't like it when President Trump called it the "China Virus" - because it made China look bad - even though many diseases have been named after the place they originated.

I thought he was kinda stupid for calling it "China Virus" when it's actual name is COVID-19, coronavirus or SARS-COV-2.

"Actual" name?

You understand that there have been other coronaviruses before this one?

For example - Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) - is a coronavirus.

It is called MERS because it originated int he Middle East - in Jordan.

It is not stupid to label a disease after where it originated - it's actually a very common practice.

You do have to wonder why he did that.

He spoke openly about why he did it.

Chinese spokespeople were making the claim that CVOID-19 had originated from U.S. soldiers.

They tried to blame the U.S. for the pandemic.

So - he wanted everyone to know that it originated in China - not the U.S.

He was also upset because the Chinese government spent weeks covering up that they were responsible for the outbreak - rather than containing it or at least warning other countries about it.

China is responsible for the pandemic and he wants everyone to know it.

I also thought he sounded stupid when he suggested we should inject disinfectant into our bodies to fight COVID-19, among other things.

This never happened. Its propaganda produced by the MSM.

Experts noted that disinfectants killed the virus on contact so he asked a group of experts if there was any way we could use that internally somehow.

You can easily find the video or at least the transcript of that conversation. Trump was on T.V. in front of the press almost every day - you can find it.

You are spreading misinformation.

 

[Brian2]

That's where you are entirely wrong.

The essence of science is that it can be tested, by further observation of nature. All the theories we have developed about the past, whether they be the past disposition of continents or the ancestry of organisms, are testable by observations we can make now. They are all theories that make predictions about what we should be able to find, now, in nature, if we look in the right places.

What I was speaking about is the ideas that life and the universe came about naturally,,,,,,,,,,and comparing that with the idea that they came through a creator.
Other scientific predictions might be able to be tested. Can these ones be tested? Do they have predictions? If not then they may be as much pseudo science as the idea of a creator.

 

[Audie]

What I was speaking about is the ideas that life and the universe came about naturally,,,,,,,,,,and comparing that with the idea that they came through a creator.
Other scientific predictions might be able to be tested. Can these ones be tested? Do they have predictions? If not then they may be as much pseudo science as the idea of a creator.

In what sense do you mean tested? Do it in a lab?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Their "design detection" methods are alleged to be able to differentiate between things that are "designed by intelligence" and those that come about via natural means. Given that that's exactly the question with how COVID came about, this would seem to be a perfect opportunity for them to use their methods.

And to be clear, they really don't have any way of detecting "design". That's what this thread is about....calling their bluff. Of course it's possible that some ID creationist will prove me wrong and actually meet the challenge, but I'm not holding my breath.

It was designed either way though. Whether God designed it or man did it would still exhibit design.
Personally I don't doubt it came from a laboratory.

 

[Brian2]

In what sense do you mean tested? Do it in a lab?

That would be a good way to test it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but scientists might find other ways to test them.

 

[Brian2]

It was designed either way though. Whether God designed it or man did it would still exhibit design.
Personally I don't doubt it came from a laboratory.

There are probably things common to both human design and God's design that show intelligence.
Components fitting together to form a functional whole could be one of them.
How things work is one thing, but how things got like they are is a completely different question and science is looking into it but to believe it all just happened seems to circular reasoning and using the initial presumption of a natural cause as the conclusion.
I don't think science can ever say "this is too hard, there must have been a designer". Science plods on relentlessly for a naturalistic answer.
I suppose no scientist would say they are looking for a designer or design and the alternative would be that they are looking for the presumption, a naturalistic cause.
No doubt science is the innocent one in the middle here but atheists who use science to show no God are really showing not just a lack of belief in God but also a belief that it is all natural.
We theists who believe things were created don't have any burden of proof to show that a God exists. We actually just lack the belief that the answer to existence is natural,,,,,,,,,,,,a belief others have it seems. I don't know how they got this belief, they certainly were not born with it.
It is interesting that wanting to do away with faith thinking does not actually work unless you are someone who accepts nothing without solid evidence.
But even that, in practice, would lead to the same life as someone who just outright says there is no God.
Sorry for the rave.

 

[exchemist]

What I was speaking about is the ideas that life and the universe came about naturally,,,,,,,,,,and comparing that with the idea that they came through a creator.
Other scientific predictions might be able to be tested. Can these ones be tested? Do they have predictions? If not then they may be as much pseudo science as the idea of a creator.

That is called methodological naturalism and is intrinsic to the scientific method. It is not a theory: it is a principle of doing science. The whole basis of the success of science since the Renaissance lies in seeking explanations of nature in nature itself, not in some external agency. The success of that principle is obvious from science's achievements in explaining a huge range of phenomena that medieval people attributed to "acts of God", for want of anything better.

The moment you introduce an external agency into your ideas you are not doing science any more, but theology or metaphysics instead.

So life is presumed by science to be due to natural causes, just as everything else is. Why would life be singled out and exempted? What is so special about life? It makes no sense.

 

[Audie]

That would be a good way to test it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but scientists might find other ways to test them.

Life and the origin of the universe is a bit much for
one thread.

Lets try something simpler for the moment.
How might one study volcanoes in a lab?
(And make predictions)

 

[SkepticThinker]

Hollywood, the MSM, Democrats, big tech, sports entertainment - you name it - bend over backwards not to upset China - because they make a lot of money off of China.

LOL President Trump had a secret bank account in China - he made a lot of money "off of" them himself.

They didn't like it when President Trump called it the "China Virus" - because it made China look bad - even though many diseases have been named after the place they originated.

Oh, you're a mind reader?

"Actual" name?
You understand that there have been other coronaviruses before this one?
For example - Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) - is a coronavirus.

Yes, actual name. Um yeah, did you miss the part where I said COVID-19 and SARS-COV-2? Nobody in the science community (that I'm aware of) had branded it the "China Virus." That was just Trump's personal thing. Not sure if you remembered what happened In 2020, but crimes against Asians increased by 150%. Perhaps that is what those evil Democrats, MSM, big tech, and sports entertainment feared would happen if Trump kept calling it "China Virus" and "Kung Flu." Hmmm ...

It is called MERS because it originated int he Middle East - in Jordan.

It's call MERS-CoV and it originated in Saudi Arabia.

It is not stupid to label a disease after where it originated - it's actually a very common practice.

Do you know of anyone in the science community (you know, where these names come from) who referred to it as "China Virus" Or "Kung-Flu" (Trump's other pet name for it which definitely has some racist connotations)?

He spoke openly about why he did it.[

Chinese spokespeople were making the claim that CVOID-19 had originated from U.S. soldiers.

They tried to blame the U.S. for the pandemic.

So - he wanted everyone to know that it originated in China - not the U.S.

He was also upset because the Chinese government spent weeks covering up that they were responsible for the outbreak - rather than containing it or at least warning other countries about it.

Oh yes, he was upset about that. And what did Trump do to contain the virus or do anything at all to stop it from spreading like wildfire across the country? Heck, he couldn't even bring himself to ask people to wear masks, while making sure to mock those who did wear them.

China is responsible for the pandemic and he wants everyone to know it.

How does this help us do anything about it? It doesn't. It's just pointless scapegoating.

This never happened. Its propaganda produced by the MSM.

Yep, it did. I watched it happen on live television.

Experts noted that disinfectants killed the virus on contact so he asked a group of experts if there was any way we could use that internally somehow.

Oh, it was pretty clear to me that Trump had just learned only minutes before how to use disinfectants to clean surfaces, probably having never done before it in his entire life. Somebody had probably just shown it to him before he came out for the press conference. Then he thought he had some brilliant idea about injecting it into bodies. It would have been hilarious if it wasn't so alarming.

You can easily find the video or at least the transcript of that conversation. Trump was on T.V. in front of the press almost every day - you can find it.

I watched it live.

You are spreading misinformation.

Sounds like you didn't watch it.