Hindu Caste System

[duvduv]

I have been reading about the Hindu caste system and its heavy rituals. Since it is apparently not really part of Hindu theology, how have serious Hindus been able to deal with it? It seems so contrary to religious thinking for people to be restricted in so many ways to either a higher or a lower caste, and that such would be approved of by God anyway, despite the claims that it is connected by "fate" to karma and reincarnation in a world with a total lack of equal opportunity. I have also read that this was a strong factor for the emergence of Buddhism and even Sikhism.
Thanks.

 

[SomeRandom]

I have been reading about the Hindu caste system and its heavy rituals. Since it is apparently not really part of Hindu theology, how have serious Hindus been able to deal with it? It seems so contrary to religious thinking for people to be restricted in so many ways to either a higher or a lower caste, and that such would be approved of by God anyway, despite the claims that it is connected by "fate" to karma and reincarnation in a world with a total lack of equal opportunity. I have also read that this was a strong factor for the emergence of Buddhism and even Sikhism.
Thanks.

Umm didn't the early Christian Brits have the feudal system?
No one outside of India even knows how the caste system works.

 

[duvduv]

But unfortunately the discriminatory caste sytem reinforced by the British remains until today....

 

[Vinayaka]

But unfortunately the discriminatory caste sydtes reinforced by the British remains until today....

Have you been to India? Have you observed first hand, or are you going by what is written in encyclopedias? On my two trips to India I didn't notice caste effects once. But I sure notice class (caste by its western name) here in Canada.

 

[duvduv]

Have you been to India? Have you observed first hand, or are you going by what is written in encyclopedias? On my two trips to India I didn't notice caste effects once. But I sure notice class (caste by its western name) here in Canada.

I see your point. But isn't the caste occupational system built into the social and religious life of Indians? Untouchables, latrine cleaners, priests, teachers, traders, whatever......

 

[Vinayaka]

I see your point. But isn't the caste occupational system built into the social and religious life of Indians? Untouchables, latrine cleaners, priests, teachers, traders, whatever......

It is here too, to some degree. Farmers take over their father's farm. Think guilds. In India it has become relatively easy to switch occupations, hence caste. Caste, class, are similar. But a point that needs to be made is that it isn't caste or class itself that is the problem, its class or caste based discrimination that's the problem.

 

[sayak83]

I have been reading about the Hindu caste system and its heavy rituals. Since it is apparently not really part of Hindu theology, how have serious Hindus been able to deal with it? It seems so contrary to religious thinking for people to be restricted in so many ways to either a higher or a lower caste, and that such would be approved of by God anyway, despite the claims that it is connected by "fate" to karma and reincarnation in a world with a total lack of equal opportunity. I have also read that this was a strong factor for the emergence of Buddhism and even Sikhism.
Thanks.

Caste system developed in the late medieval India and was reinforced by the British. It still has strong roots unfortunately in many segments of India due to presence of vested interests. Little to do with Hinduism proper, though the conservatives would try to tell everyone otherwise.

 

[duvduv]

It is here too, to some degree. Farmers take over their father's farm. Think guilds. In India it has become relatively easy to switch occupations, hence caste. Caste, class, are similar. But a point that needs to be made is that it isn't caste or class itself that is the problem, its class or caste based discrimination that's the problem.

What about the "Untouchable" caste??

 

[duvduv]

Caste system developed in the late medieval India and was reinforced by the British. It still has strong roots unfortunately in many segments of India due to presence of vested interests. Little to do with Hinduism proper, though the conservatives would try to tell everyone otherwise.

Very sad to hear. I have always felt sorry for the "Untouchables" especially. What did they ever do to deserve it? But then I suppose folks misuse the concept of karma as some kind of fate, to promote the idea that they are fated to live a miserable existence.....

 

[Terese]

Pranam! In Hinduism, the Varnashrama-dharma is the way society is supposed to function, and is divine in origin, as Lord Krishna said he created the 4 roles. But the caste system of today is a perverted version of it.

In the Varnashrama system anyone can change their role, for example a Kshatriya (warrior) can become a Brahmana (priests, teachers, intellectuals) if he has the qualifications for it (renouncing any form of violence to living beings). All the Varnas (social divisions) are important and is likened to that of the form of a man. The Brahmanas are (like i have said priests, teachers and intellectuals) represent the head, which has to do with vision, thinking, listening, advising. The Kshatriyas (protection, fighting, administration) as the arms, the Vaishyas (farmers, merchants, business people) are the thighs, and Sudras are artisans and workers, and represent the shins and feet. Untouchables are people who have performed bad deeds and are expelled from society. They are expected to return when they reform themselves. An untouchable's son/daughter does not become an untouchable themselves.

The four Ashrams (stages in life) are Student life, Household life, Retirement, Renunciation. More on Ashrama here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashrama_(stage)

So Hinduism, including Vaishnava acharyas reject the caste system and praise Varnashrama-dharma as having all roles of society as important and needing each other, as well as the emphasis on duty and spirituality. Mahatma Ghandi rejected the Caste system, but extolled the Varnashrama system.

 

[Jedster]

Very sad to hear. I have always felt sorry for the "Untouchables" especially. What did they ever do to deserve it? But then I suppose folks misuse the concept of karma as some kind of fate, to promote the idea that they are fated to live a miserable existence.....

Just like mamzerim(people born from an illegal union) in rabbinic Judaism?

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

"duvduv",

Namaste,

I have been reading about the Hindu caste system and its heavy rituals. Since it is apparently not really part of Hindu theology, how have serious Hindus been able to deal with it?

Well i did not even Know what Caste was until i started reading about it on the web, and I am a Born Hindu. Maybe it is a "India", specific problem.

In Fiji we Indo-Fijians don't have Caste, Also in Australia among the Indian Migrant Hindus there is no Caste as we see in India.

There are no Caste quotas in Fiji, nor have i been ever stopped from going into temples in Fiji or Here in Australia because of any caste bias.

The only thing i get asked is my "Gotra", at a specific temple near me, but as i don't know my Gotra the priest just makes one up for me. I was never approached by any Hindu and asked what is my caste.

When my Brother went to India for the first time, a few years ago, he said only one person at a Sari shop in Delhi enquired about his caste, and when he stated that he does not believe in it and does not have a caste, the shop keeper said "Oke Sirr", and proceeded to serve him anyways.

We as descendants of Indentured labourers having travelled overseas would be considered as Achoot or Untouchable or Caste less by those who are castists in India. So far I have never met one.

Dhanyavad

 

[sayak83]

Namaste,



Well i did not even Know what Caste was until i started reading about it on the web, and I am a Born Hindu. Maybe it is a "India", specific problem.

In Fiji we Indo-Fijians don't have Caste, Also in Australia among the Indian Migrant Hindus there is no Caste as we see in India.

There are no Caste quotas in Fiji, nor have i been ever stopped from going into temples in Fiji or Here in Australia because of any caste bias.

The only thing i get asked is my "Gotra", at a specific temple near me, but as i don't know my Gotra the priest just makes one up for me. I was never approached by any Hindu and asked what is my caste.

When my Brother went to India for the first time, a few years ago, he said only one person at a Sari shop in Delhi enquired about his caste, and when he stated that he does not believe in it and does not have a caste, the shop keeper said "Oke Sirr", and proceeded to serve him anyways.

We as descendants of Indentured labourers having travelled overseas would be considered as Achoot or Untouchable or Caste less by those who are castists in India. So far I have never met one.

Dhanyavad

Caste discrimination is a severe and deadly problem in many place. Read this below. This happened just a month ago.
https://thewire.in/caste/tamil-nadu-kachanatham-caste-dalit-hatred-violence
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...e-of-caste-in-kachanatham/article24074378.ece

Deivendran says, “Since I had lodged a complaint, I was their main target. I am a soldier in the army. I had come on leave not just to attend the temple festival but to get married. After the festival ended, we left for Manamadurai that very night to look after the wedding preparations. My father Arumugam chose to stay back. At around 9 pm on that night, a group of people carrying weapons barged into our house. They were looking for me. When my father told them that I was away, Meenakshi – Suman’s mother – ordered the mob to kill my father. ‘So what if the son is not around? Kill him,’ she had said, pointing to my father. My old father was dragged around and hacked to death. He died on the spot. They also took Rs 3,70,000 in cash and 35 sovereigns of gold that I had saved for my wedding expenses. My house has been ransacked. I work to protect my country. But who could offer protection to me and my family?”

Shanmuganathan, killed in the gruesome assault, is a local hero of sorts. An MBA graduate, he rejected many corporate offers to farm his 20-acre plot of land. His father Arivazhagan is a deputy trainer in a government ITI institute and his mother is a school teacher. Shanmuganathan was a much-loved young man. He was an inspiration and a mentor to local youth – he helped them obtain student loans and guided them in their studies.

When he returned from the festival that night, Shanmuganathan went immediately to bed. The mob hacked him to death in his sleep. In the same house, Chandrasekar was hacked by the mob while watching TV. He died on his way to the hospital. Days have passed since Shanmuganathan and Chandrasekhar died, but when this reporter visited, the house still stood witness to the horror which unfolded that night. Blood stains were still visible in the spot where Shanmuganathan was sleeping. Chandrasekhar left a trail of blood prints on the door and the staircase where he had tried to run away from the mob.

 

[Vinayaka]

What about the "Untouchable" caste??

What about them? Someone has to do manual labour. You really think garbage collectors across the world get a lot of respect? It's unfortunate, sure.

 

[Aupmanyav]

We as descendants of Indentured labourers having travelled overseas would be considered as Achoot or Untouchable or Caste less by those who are castists in India.

There are so many castes at so many levels. Not every one is an untouchable. So, unless one knows the caste of his family in India, it should not be assumed that those who went to Fiji or Caribean are untouchables. Moreover, Caste is a weakening institution in India today, discrimination is prohibited and punishable. And those caste which suffered discrimination are helped by the Affirmative action which is part of the Indian Constitution.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. how have serious Hindus been able to deal with it? It seems so contrary to religious thinking for people to be restricted in so many ways to either a higher or a lower caste, and that such would be approved of by God anyway, despite the claims that it is connected by "fate" to karma and reincarnation in a world with a total lack of equal opportunity. I have also read that this was a strong factor for the emergence of Buddhism and even Sikhism.

We have taken cognizance of it and have dealt with it in the constitutional way by making it unlawful, punishable (5 year jail) and giving those castes special facilities for advancement - reserving college admissions and job opportunities and a host of other facilities - the strongest 'Affirmative Action' program any where in the world. The higher castes and lower castes all are mentioned in the Vedas as part of the body of the Supreme God with various inclinations and varying responsibilities. Yeah, many people believe it due to their actions in previous lives (Karma), which is not unfair. Because if a lower cast person has good deeds/good karma, he may be born as one in higher castes and vice-versa, thereby encouraging everyone to engage in good deeds and refrain from evil deeds.

It will not be correct to say that Buddhism and Sikhism got converts only from the lower strata of the society. They attracted people from all levels of society, kings as well as commoners. Buddhism totally disregarded God/Gods but stressed on our actions. Sikhism was your type of monotheism with a strong dose of devotion which disregarded religious divide, the problem in the time when it was established. Its books contains hymns by Hindu 'bhakti' practioners as well as Muslim sufis. Though in its core, Sikhism is non-dual 'Advaita' Hinduism.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Very sad to hear. I have always felt sorry for the "Untouchables" especially. .. to promote the idea that they are fated to live a miserable existence..

Yeah, we all feel sorry for the untouchables, but it is not correct to say that they lived a miserable life. They were poor, but were paid for their work. Even many of the higher castes also were/are poor. We all, castes and tribes, lived in our own particular small worlds, though socially interacting. Marriage relations among different castes, even within the higher castes was prohibited. India did not have the kind of melting together that you would find in USA, but we had a 'stained-glass window' type of togetherness. That is the best simile that I can give. No colour loosing its individuality but all welded together.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

"sayak83",

Namaste Brother,

Caste discrimination is a severe and deadly problem in many place. Read this below. This happened just a month ago.

This is something that just does not happen among other Indian and non Indian Hindu communities, as far as i know.

Tell me how do people know what caste other people are?

In Fiji there is no way to tell just by looking at someone about their caste, even by their last name we cant tell. is there a list or something that people have in India that tells them what is the caste of a person.

I don't understand how this works.

 

[Marcion]

The four varna's are the four main psychological colours among people all around the world.

White colour for people who are mainly involved with things of the mind such as intellectuals, scientists, spiritual people, artists
Red colour for people with a fighting for a noble cause mentality, such as police, military, sports persons, fire fighters, etc.
Yellow colour for people with a hoarding, business or money-minded mentality
Black for people with a more crude or selfish mentality

Unfortunately in India a rigid limiting hereditary caste systeem became associated with this recognition of the four varna's, fixing people in certain professions and preventing them from mixing outside their born caste.
This system was created by the caucasian Aryans who invaded India over thousands of years subjugating and outcasting the indigenous darker populations who were treated like slaves and less than human (the Ramayana depicts them as demons and monkees that were defeated in wars).

Buddhism and some other sects rightfully banned this irrational and unjust caste system from their own ideologies.

 

[ChanaR]

I have been reading about the Hindu caste system and its heavy rituals. Since it is apparently not really part of Hindu theology, how have serious Hindus been able to deal with it? It seems so contrary to religious thinking for people to be restricted in so many ways to either a higher or a lower caste, and that such would be approved of by God anyway, despite the claims that it is connected by "fate" to karma and reincarnation in a world with a total lack of equal opportunity. I have also read that this was a strong factor for the This will be an extremely good thread for me to read since it deals with a major issue for me. I've always felt that the caste system was for was the Inquisition was for Catholicism. IOW, if the fruit of Hinduism is a grossly abusive society, what does that say about the tree?

However, I've learned that it is only Vedic Hinduism that supports the caste system -- tantric Hinduism actually opposes it (I'm still learning the difference between the two -- I'm a kindergartner with regards to Hinduism).

And I'm curious to hear what Hindus have to say. It's not really fair of me to judge without listening to the other side. In the past that's not been possible. But now I have the internet. So here goes...