Hindu Caste System

[ChanaR]

Umm didn't the early Christian Brits have the feudal system?
No one outside of India even knows how the caste system works.

The feudal system lasted in the range of hundred of years, not thousands, and was limited to a small area, not all of Christendom. It was basically an economic reality not tied to the teachings of the Church.

Is it not true that the caste system is tied to the concept of karma and the teachings of the Vedas? I'm here to learn.

 

[ChanaR]

Have you been to India? Have you observed first hand, or are you going by what is written in encyclopedias? On my two trips to India I didn't notice caste effects once. But I sure notice class (caste by its western name) here in Canada.

My parents grew up on welfare in the depression, but went to college and became middle class. They bought a home, and lived off their investments when thy retired. My mother, who is still alive, lives in a lovely retirement home. All of us kids look forward to a nice inheritance.

That doesn't sound like a caste system to me.

 

[ChanaR]

Yeah, we all feel sorry for the untouchables, but it is not correct to say that they lived a miserable life. They were poor, but were paid for their work. Even many of the higher castes also were/are poor. We all, castes and tribes, lived in our own particular small worlds, though socially interacting. Marriage relations among different castes, even within the higher castes was prohibited. India did not have the kind of melting together that you would find in USA, but we had a 'stained-glass window' type of togetherness. That is the best simile that I can give. No colour loosing its individuality but all welded together.

The problem with the caste system is that it doesn't allow the individual the opportunity to go where they are most naturally suited. Let's say someone with a brilliant mind or a natural spirituality is born an untouchable. They cannot become a scientist or a priest. Right?

 

[ChanaR]

What about them? Someone has to do manual labour. You really think garbage collectors across the world get a lot of respect? It's unfortunate, sure.

1. Pay manual labor a living wage, and a lot of people will happily do it. We forget that we need to pay people for their time, they are giving us a portion of their lives, not just their skill. Even manual labor needs to be treated with the same dignity due to every living human being.
2. There are plenty of people who cannot work above the skill level of manual labor, so you don't need to force people into manual labor who are not suited to it. My son is not the brightest star in the sky. I admire him because he was never supposed to graduate from high school, but he kept his nose to the grindstone and at age 22 he got his diploma. He washes dishes for a living and is as happy as can be. Our problem is that unethical employers only want to give him 32 hours so that they don't have to give him health insurance. This is why we have to have compassion in our political parties, as well as collective bargaining.

I try to make myself aware of international news, and i do get news from i.e. Europe. I know that in the west there are efforts to make life better for unskilled labor. But I don't get news from Asia. I have no idea whether this is a concern there or whether labor is just taken for granted (it's just their karma or some such nonsense maybe).

 

[Vinayaka]

My parents grew up on welfare in the depression, but went to college and became middle class. They bought a home, and lived off their investments when thy retired. My mother, who is still alive, lives in a lovely retirement home. All of us kids look forward to a nice inheritance.

That doesn't sound like a caste system to me.

Yes, I know lots of Indians with similar stories. Thanks for sharing. I met a young man today who came from poverty, is now an engineer, sending money home. Parents are happy.

 

[Vinayaka]

I try to make myself aware of international news, and i do get news from i.e. Europe. I know that in the west there are efforts to make life better for unskilled labor. But I don't get news from Asia. I have no idea whether this is a concern there or whether labor is just taken for granted (it's just their karma or some such nonsense maybe).

In my somewhat limited experience, there is tremendous variety. Each situation is different.

 

[SomeRandom]

The feudal system lasted in the range of hundred of years, not thousands, and was limited to a small area, not all of Christendom. It was basically an economic reality not tied to the teachings of the Church.

Is it not true that the caste system is tied to the concept of karma and the teachings of the Vedas? I'm here to learn.

I honestly don't know. Anyone outside of India is totally lost on the so called caste system. It is meaningless to us.

 

[ChanaR]

Pranam! In Hinduism, the Varnashrama-dharma is the way society is supposed to function, and is divine in origin, as Lord Krishna said he created the 4 roles. But the caste system of today is a perverted version of it.

In the Varnashrama system anyone can change their role, for example a Kshatriya (warrior) can become a Brahmana (priests, teachers, intellectuals) if he has the qualifications for it (renouncing any form of violence to living beings). All the Varnas (social divisions) are important and is likened to that of the form of a man. The Brahmanas are (like i have said priests, teachers and intellectuals) represent the head, which has to do with vision, thinking, listening, advising. The Kshatriyas (protection, fighting, administration) as the arms, the Vaishyas (farmers, merchants, business people) are the thighs, and Sudras are artisans and workers, and represent the shins and feet. Untouchables are people who have performed bad deeds and are expelled from society. They are expected to return when they reform themselves. An untouchable's son/daughter does not become an untouchable themselves.

The four Ashrams (stages in life) are Student life, Household life, Retirement, Renunciation. More on Ashrama here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashrama_(stage)

So Hinduism, including Vaishnava acharyas reject the caste system and praise Varnashrama-dharma as having all roles of society as important and needing each other, as well as the emphasis on duty and spirituality. Mahatma Ghandi rejected the Caste system, but extolled the Varnashrama system.

Thank you for replying! I'm am just learning about Hinduism, and the caste system is a really big question for me, so you are a treasure.

Do I understand you to say that the Untouchables are criminals being punished and they are not born into this caste (which would mean its really not a caste at all, but a form of civil justice)?? What kinds of laws does one have to break to become an untouchable? I'm just wondering if it's comparable to those laws for which we in the west would give life in prison.

Please explain to me what "Varnashrama system" is. I'm a kindergartner when it comes to Hinduism, so please use very elementary language.

You say that there is fluidity, that for example a Kshatriya can become a Brahmana, What about other castes? Can they become Brahmanas too?

This is very important to me, because that is my natural inclination, and in any other line of professions I believe I would be wasted. I have a very high intelligence, and am naturally spiritual, and have a strong inclination to help other people. I am not interested in making a lot of money or accumulating things; I'm not into power, I'm not into social status. In the past I've done things like clean homes while working through college, and I do believe in the dignity of labor. But such things waste my talents and repetitive tasks drive me nuts with boredom. I ended up becoming a counselor and that is JUST PERFECT for me. I'm a perpetual student of all disciplines, but especially of a spiritual nature, but mostly I do that on my own time. If I were to be trapped cleaning latrines my whole life it would be a sin. I thank God that I was born into a society where I had the freedom to pursue and education and choose my own role. I hope that doesn't offend you.

Basically what I'm saying is that the whole caste system thing scares the living daylights out of me. It is my very limited understanding of Hinduism that Vedic versions support it but Tantric versions do not, but I'm too uneducated to really understand what that means.

 

[ChanaR]

Just like mamzerim(people born from an illegal union) in rabbinic Judaism?

The limitation of a mamzer (not quite the same thing as a illigitimate child, but pretty close) is one of limited marriage -- they can only marry another mamzer.

Socially, there is no official limitation. Now are there unofficially others who bully mamzarim? There will always be mean people. But Judaism teaches that mamzarim are not second class citizens. Indeed, they can even become kings and judges.

 

[Vinayaka]

Here is an example of how things are changing.
https://indianexpress.com/article/i...t-temples-any-hindu-can-be-a-brahmin-4890673/

Tirumala Devasthanam, the largest Hindu temple by crowds in all of India, also has trained dalits to become priests for the many smaller village temples around Tirupati. It's changing.

 

[ChanaR]

Caste discrimination is a severe and deadly problem in many place. Read this below. This happened just a month ago.
https://thewire.in/caste/tamil-nadu-kachanatham-caste-dalit-hatred-violence
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...e-of-caste-in-kachanatham/article24074378.ece.

Wow. WOW. You know, however sinful the class society in the west is, we don't have cases of rich people hacking to death people on welfare.

 

[ChanaR]

Here is an example of how things are changing.
https://indianexpress.com/article/i...t-temples-any-hindu-can-be-a-brahmin-4890673/

Tirumala Devasthanam, the largest Hindu temple by crowds in all of India, also has trained dalits to become priests for the many smaller village temples around Tirupati. It's changing.

Wow, this is absolutely awesome!!! To what do you attribute this change in Indian society? The spread of democracy? The spread in certain forms of Hinduism? More people becoming enlightend? Something else?

Are Dalits the lowest caste, or are they criminals being punished?

 

[Vinayaka]

Wow, this is absolutely awesome!!! To what do you attribute this change in Indian society? The spread of democracy? The spread in certain forms of Hinduism? More people becoming enlightend? Something else?

Are Dalits the lowest caste, or are they criminals being punished?

Certainly not criminals being published. I attribute it to modernisation, globalisation, increased education, and more. Similar to the banning of slavery progress, it takes time.

 

[ChanaR]

Certainly not criminals being published. I attribute it to modernisation, globalisation, increased education, and more. Similar to the banning of slavery progress, it takes time.

I attribute the banning of slavery to the flowering (finally) of the Jewish ethic of being made in the image of God (the dignity of the individual). Some seeds take a long time to grow into trees, but they do, eventually.

Personally, I don't think economic or political systems have any impact on societal virtues. They simply support the status quo. Globalization merely spread the ethic worldwide.

I think I'm going to log off the forum for a bit and watch some YouTube videos on Hinduism. My knowledge level is really too basic, and I've forgotten much of what I learned when I studied it a couple of decades ago.

 

[sayak83]

Wow. WOW. You know, however sinful the class society in the west is, we don't have cases of rich people hacking to death people on welfare.

No. In the US, they fund an armed police that guns down the blacks instead.

 

[Terese]

Thank you for replying! I'm am just learning about Hinduism, and the caste system is a really big question for me, so you are a treasure.

Do I understand you to say that the Untouchables are criminals being punished and they are not born into this caste (which would mean its really not a caste at all, but a form of civil justice)?? What kinds of laws does one have to break to become an untouchable? I'm just wondering if it's comparable to those laws for which we in the west would give life in prison.

Please explain to me what "Varnashrama system" is. I'm a kindergartner when it comes to Hinduism, so please use very elementary language.

You say that there is fluidity, that for example a Kshatriya can become a Brahmana, What about other castes? Can they become Brahmanas too?

This is very important to me, because that is my natural inclination, and in any other line of professions I believe I would be wasted. I have a very high intelligence, and am naturally spiritual, and have a strong inclination to help other people. I am not interested in making a lot of money or accumulating things; I'm not into power, I'm not into social status. In the past I've done things like clean homes while working through college, and I do believe in the dignity of labor. But such things waste my talents and repetitive tasks drive me nuts with boredom. I ended up becoming a counselor and that is JUST PERFECT for me. I'm a perpetual student of all disciplines, but especially of a spiritual nature, but mostly I do that on my own time. If I were to be trapped cleaning latrines my whole life it would be a sin. I thank God that I was born into a society where I had the freedom to pursue and education and choose my own role. I hope that doesn't offend you.

Basically what I'm saying is that the whole caste system thing scares the living daylights out of me. It is my very limited understanding of Hinduism that Vedic versions support it but Tantric versions do not, but I'm too uneducated to really understand what that means.

Pranam ChanaR, i will do my best to make this an easy learning experience

Varnashrama means four varnas (social divisions) and four ashrams (stages in life), and Dharma means law, truth, way of life. I have mentioned the varnas and ashrams in my previous post. People are not born as untouchables but are seen as a caste in that they are a social group, but from what i know no Hindu texts see untouchability as a "5th caste". There are always only 4 castes. To be an untouchable you must have done something heinous to be ostracised, like being morally corrupt, adharmic. The Puranas (a body of Hindu texts) say untouchables should be taken care of, but any close connection with them should be avoided. They are thrown out of society not for revenge, but for transformation. All castes could become untouchables. I am unfortunately not knowledgeable with the details, there is little mention of untouchables in Hindu texts.

Varnas are not determined by birth but is based on qualities and actions. This means social mobility exists and is available. In the modern caste system, people consider one born as a Brahmin to be blessed, and to be born as a sudra one must have done something bad in their previous life. This is not so at all. There have been good sudras and bad brahmins like in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. The blessed Vidura was a sudra in the Mahabharata, and was always pious and respectable. Lord Krishna enjoyed his company over his kshastriya friends, for Vidura cared about Lord Krishna and wished to enjoy his company as well. Ravana in the Ramayana was a Brahmin, but was a rakshasha (demon) and kidnapped Sita (Lord Rama's other half). Lord Rama killed him with his mighty bow, restoring order. This is proof that the Lord does not care about caste, even in the Varnashrama dharma system, but the character and qualities of a person. All 4 castes perform service to each other, and rely on each other. Still you may think, what of untouchables? They are not even in a caste! Does the Lord care for them? Very much so. As i said, the character and qualities is something topmost to the Supreme. Shabari, an ascetic untouchable showed deep devotion to Lord Rama and offered him berries, and he gladly ate it. To be near an untouchable, let alone eat something offered by them is something a staunch brahmana would never do. Yet, out of love for his devotee, he consummated with her, and she attained his abode.

Lord Rama told Shabari: Such pure devotion is expressed in nine ways. First is satsang or association with love-intoxicated devotees and righteous people. The second is to develop a taste for hearing My nectar-like stories. The third is service to the guru (...) Fourth is to sing My kirtan (communal chorus) (...) Japa or repetition of My Holy name and chanting My bhajans are the fifth expression (...) To follow scriptural injunctions always, to practice control of the senses, nobility of character and selfless service, these are expressions of the sixth mode of bhakti. Seeing Me manifested everywhere in this world and worshipping My saints more than myself is the seventh mode of bhakti. To find no fault with anyone and to be contented with one's lot is the eighth mode of bhakti. Unreserved surrender with total faith in My strength is the ninth and highest stage. Shabari, anyone who practices one of these nine modes of My bhakti pleases Me most and reaches Me without fail. That which is most difficult for the greatest yogis was easily attained by you, Shabari, because of your sincere devotion.

All Vaishnava acharyas (spiritual teachers) follow and worship the Lord's activities and denounce the corrupt and stifling caste system and inegalitarian treatment of peoples. So no, Vedic "versions" do not support the rigid caste system of India today, but the fluid Varnashrama-Dharma that the Lord created.

It is deeply wonderful that democratic societies exist that help the less fortunate and see their society not as masters and slaves, but as a collective whole that everyone profits from. America is falling from this, and is devastatingly materialistic to the point of seeing people as worth only monetary value, but this is a topic for another day.

 

[Jedster]

The limitation of a mamzer (not quite the same thing as a illigitimate child, but pretty close) is one of limited marriage -- they can only marry another mamzer.

Socially, there is no official limitation. Now are there unofficially others who bully mamzarim? There will always be mean people. But Judaism teaches that mamzarim are not second class citizens. Indeed, they can even become kings and judges.

That may all be true. However they can only marry other mamzerim, which, IMO, makes them similar to a caste.
Hence my original comment.


Welcome to RF

 

[Marcion]

Basically what I'm saying is that the whole caste system thing scares the living daylights out of me. It is my very limited understanding of Hinduism that Vedic versions support it but Tantric versions do not, but I'm too uneducated to really understand what that means.

Historically it is not surprising that Tantra rejects the caste system because Tantra originated within India long (thousands of years) before the caucasian Aryans arrived who demonised the indigenous darker skinned populations and refused to give them a place in their caste system.

There is nothing wrong with distinguishing between those four types of people on an individual basis but it should never become a cultural thing rigidly fixing whole communities into so-called castes.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The problem with the caste system is that it doesn't allow the individual the opportunity to go where they are most naturally suited. Let's say someone with a brilliant mind or a natural spirituality is born an untouchable. They cannot become a scientist or a priest. Right?

We also feel the same way. The Indian Constitution has made a special provision for people who were disadvantaged. It covers all facets of life, from the pregnant mother to child's education, job, promotions, loan facilities from banks, housing, etc. It is more for the lowest castes and tribal people who constitute some 23% of our popultion and lesser for the 'not so disadvantaged but still disadvantaged to some extent', who constitute some 27% of the population, in total 50% of the population. Mind you, it is the strongest 'affirmative action program' anywhere in the world. The same provision is there in case of elected representatives of the people. So any governing body, legislature or ministry in India will compulsorily have 23% of the people from lower caste and 27% of the people from what we term as 'Other Backward Classes'. That has continued for 70 years and has shown excellent results. Now the higher castes have strong competition from the other castes. Discrimination on basis of caste is unlawful and is punishable with a 5-year jail sentence.

I credit democracy for this change where every vote is important and the maximum people have to be kept happy.

 

[ChanaR]

I credit democracy for this change where every vote is important and the maximum people have to be kept happy.

This is what is nice about globalization. We get ideas from you and you get ideas from us and we both get ideas from that culture over there. I'm so happy you are democratic, and working hard to change the caste system. I think India has a wonderful future.