Hindu Monotheism

[duvduv]

I Am interested in comparative religion. Now since these millions of devas were all created by the supreme God Brahma/Krishna/Vishnu like we were created, then why wouldn't everyone worship the supreme God exclusively instead of the servant Devas? By comparing the supreme God to the Supreme God of the Bible I meant that they would have to logically be the same being.

 

[Kirran]

Hehe thanks.

I've heard the many-facets-of-one-gem but not the many-slices-of-one-pizza.

I Am interested in comparative religion. Now since these millions of devas were all created by the supreme God Brahma/Krishna/Vishnu like we were created, then why wouldn't everyone worship the supreme God exclusively instead of the servant Devas? By comparing the supreme God to the Supreme God of the Bible I meant that they would have to logically be the same being.

It's usually subtler than that.

But sure, as in every major tradition in the world, loads of people are asking for materialistic stuff, not worshipping. So it's irrelevant really. Genuine devotion leaves that stuff behind.

 

[duvduv]

Are Brahman and Vishnu the same if they're both the supreme God? Why is there also Shiva and Brahman separately?

 

[SomeRandom]

I Am interested in comparative religion. Now since these millions of devas were all created by the supreme God Brahma/Krishna/Vishnu like we were created, then why wouldn't everyone worship the supreme God exclusively instead of the servant Devas?

Usually because the "Supreme" might not always appeal to a person. The goal is of course to be reunited with the Oneness and transcend things like devas or god or what have you. But the end goal is the finish line, we're all still in the middle of the race, however. So we need........steps to take. Bridges, as it were.
You have to start thinking in terms of diversity. People are all unique, so why would their journey and relationship with God be any different.

 

[SomeRandom]

I've heard the many-facets-of-one-gem but not the many-slices-of-one-pizza.

One of my many pearls of wisdom.

 

[SomeRandom]

Are Brahman and Vishnu the same if they're both the supreme God? Why is there also Shiva and Brahman separately?

Divisions are created by the differing sects. But all roads lead back to one goal. Think of them like alternate routes on a GPS.

 

[Vinayaka]

Not everyone thinks like that in constituencies, Vinayaka. Positive and negative spins can of course me made on all ways of thinking.

Of course, but I was asking the OP.

 

[Kirran]

Are Brahman and Vishnu the same if they're both the supreme God? Why is there also Shiva and Brahman separately?

Duvduv, to read about this and see it as different and nonsensical is easy. Makes sense.

But if you applied yourself to the tradition, associated with its spiritual people, joined in with worship, then you'd get an idea out of experience of what this stuff means. Can't think it out.

 

[Vinayaka]

Calmness, dear Vinayaka. The OP is merely trying to understand, it is difficult to translate across paradigms. Just as it is difficult to understand another way of thinking.

I am calm ... genuinely curious why people try so hard to understand something I see as no need to understand. Does the electrician need to understand the carpenter's skills?

 

[SomeRandom]

I am calm ... genuinely curious why people try so hard to understand something I see as no need to understand. Does the electrician need to understand the carpenter's skills?

Probably not. But sometimes an electrician may develop a hobby involving carpentry in their own spare time. I know English teachers who often venture off into other intellectual pursuits simply for their own pleasure. Like art or history. Learning and knowledge need not always have a need, merely a want. Isn't that what we're all about? Learning because we like learning?

 

[Vinayaka]

What is wtong with the translation? I found them online. You can Google them. I don't understand how Vishnaism is monotheism if in Hinduism Vishnu is called the Destroyer in relation to Shiva and Brahma. I thought Brahma was the single God as well.

For many Hindu texts, especially the more important ones, there are many translations. From experience in reading, Hindu scholars know that translations vary widely, depending on the lens they are seen through.

 

[Terese]

What is wtong with the translation? I found them online. You can Google them. I don't understand how Vishnaism is monotheism if in Hinduism Vishnu is called the Destroyer in relation to Shiva and Brahma. I thought Brahma was the single God as well.

I suggest you read up more about Hinduism. The Trimurti (Brahma, Vishnu, Siva) are respectively creation, preservation, and destruction. These are their posts, and is how the universe is governed. For clarification, the Vishnu as the preserver is one direct manifestation of Brahman who in Vaishnavism is Narayana, while Brahma and Siva are devas. (Hinduism can be confusing )

I Am interested in comparative religion. Now since these millions of devas were all created by the supreme God Brahma/Krishna/Vishnu like we were created, then why wouldn't everyone worship the supreme God exclusively instead of the servant Devas? By comparing the supreme God to the Supreme God of the Bible I meant that they would have to logically be the same being.

They worship devas for material benefits, and/or it is part of their family tradition.

Are Brahman and Vishnu the same if they're both the supreme God? Why is there also Shiva and Brahman separately?

Brahman means "ultimate reality". It is the sum of all things. Brahman and Lord Vishnu are the same, just different names.

In Vaishnavism, Shiva is not Brahman, but a deva. In Shaivism Shiva is Brahman, and Lord Vishnu a deva.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thank you very much for your reply. However I am a bit confused. If everyone knows that Ishwar is the one God as the God of the Bible, then what is the need for the rest? I am a religious Jew and I see great similarities in those Vedas with the Torah. But we have no concept of Deva demigods. There is only the one person to worship. Why isn't it the same for Hindus? And why is someone like Krishna necessary? Moses was a holy man who spoke to God, but he was only a man, and God is infinity.

You have many questions which is OK. We belong to different traditions. You have the tradition of one God. We have various traditions, all considered valid, of many Gods and Goddesses, Three Gods and a Goddess, Three Gods which are really one, One God, One Goddess and none other, and no God where everything in the universe is part of the whole, even a stone in a river bed and the greatest or lowest of men.

Why do you think that all people in the world should go by what your tradition or any other tradition says? And who has conclusively proved the existence or non-existence of one God or many Gods. It is all peoples' belief. Unless you accept that differences can exist and can exist peacefully and happily in one society, even in one family, you are not going to understand Hinduism. That is how those Jews who are supposed to have made India their home since the time of king Solomon more than 2,000 years ago were able to live here happily and with all due respect to them and their belief.

 

[SalixIncendium]

That's probably not the best way of looking at it. Think of God like a large pizza. The devas are merely slices of the same pizza. Savvy?

That pizza thing was great. Kudos.

Anyone who can work pizza into a discussion of divinity gets a 'winner' in my book. :0)

 

[Aupmanyav]

If everyone knows that Ishwar is the one God as the God of the Bible, then what is the need for the rest?

No. One God is not the only option available to Hindus. Hindus have nothing to do with Abrahamic beliefs.

Now since these millions of devas were all created by the supreme God Brahma/Krishna/Vishnu.

Just as your one God has no father, no mother but still came to exist or is existing eternally, many Hindu Gods came to exist in the same way without being created by any One God. If there can be one, there can be many others too. You might have heard of 'many universes' theory.

Are Brahman and Vishnu the same if they're both the supreme God? Why is there also Shiva and Brahman separately?

Yeah, some like Terese consider Vishnu as Brahman, some like Vinayaka consider Shiva as Brahman. I do not accept either Vishnu or Shiva but accept the existence of Brahman without it being a God (like what I said in my earlier post, no God but all things in the universe as one, even a stone in the river bed. That 'non-dual' philosophy is termed as 'Advaita' in Hinduism).

 

[duvduv]

Is it a problem for someone to try to understand the other person's religion? Plud I never said Hinduism was an Abrahamic religion. I am simply trying to understand the differences and similarities. However, one point is my difficulty in understanding adherence to multopmu deities if everyone knows there is the supreme power above everything and that controls all.

You have many questions which is OK. We belong to different traditions. You have the tradition of one God. We have various traditions, all considered valid, of many Gods and Goddesses, Three Gods and a Goddess, Three Gods which are really one, One God, One Goddess and none other, and no God where everything in the universe is part of the whole, even a stone in a river bed and the greatest or lowest of men.

Why do you think that all people in the world should go by what your tradition or any other tradition says? And who has conclusively proved the existence or non-existace of one God or many Gods. It is all peoples' belief. Unless you accept that differences can exist and can exist peacefully and happily in one society, even in one family, you are not going to understand Hinduism. That is how those Jews who are supposed to have made India their home since the time of king Solomon more than 2,000 years ago were able to live here happily and with all due respect to them and their belief.

 

[Vinayaka]

Anyone who can work pizza into a discussion of divinity gets a 'winner' in my book. :0)

There are many varieties of beer. Such diversity ... enough to make a taste tester wobbly with soma. But when the bloke goes home after a hot day, he simple sits down and has a beer, not caring which brand, but caring to quench the itchiness in his throat.

 

[Vinayaka]

if everyone knows there is the supreme power above everything and that controls all.

For most of us Hindus, Brahman isn't like the Abrahamic God. It's not a supreme power above everything and controlling all. It's more the energy or primal substance in all things, or the primal first cause, or the unmanifest causal principle from which manifestation occurs.

 

[Aupmanyav]

However, one point is my difficulty in understanding adherence to multopmu deities if everyone knows there is the supreme power above everything and that controls all.

Abandon your insistence on One God. You are discussing a different tradition. Hindus are very comfortable with multiple Gods (makes more sense, a God for a particular purpose - Vishnu for sustenance, Shiva or Mother Goddess Durga for creation or dissolution, Indra for rain, Agni for fire, Yama for judgment, Lakshmi for money, Parvati for progeny, Saraswati for arts, science, music, dance, etc. More methodical. Most Hindus do not accept the idea of One God.

 

[Kirran]

I will say, I have never met a Hindu who was a polytheist. AFAIK.

 

[ameyAtmA]

Namaste duvduv

Long story short, Ishwar-Bramhan is a formless person to me.

Aren't there Hindus who only worshiped .God directly - Ishwar?.

1. Yes, there are. However, they do not worship Ishwar , but study and meditate on Bramhan'. Let me explain... a bit later, first let us list items.
2. Now if you say "Tell me the names of those "groups" -- this is N/A because in each sampradAy, tradition or organization or following, there is a mix of people
(i) at different points in their spiritual journey
(ii) having a variety of bhavas - driven by their past-life saMskAr (impressions, principles learned ), and eventually driven by their IshTa (favorite form of the Lord)

An exception to this is Bramha Samaj or Arya Samaj started by Dayanand Saraswati -- they are strict in not worshipping or venerating any form.
Others are Bramha-Kumaris but they also sprout from a tradition of BramhA (an entity in the 3-fold aspect below) - not to be confused with Bramhan

3. BramhA-VishNu-Mahesh, Adi-Shakti Devi , various avatArs of VishNu, GaNesh, Murugan, sUrya, Indra ... are all Principles pointing to recursively compound, complex and simple aspects of Bramhan. What we call tattva

You do not find these tattva detailed in other religions - especially Abrahamic religions , because they do not want to go into detailed study of Bramhan - in that direction, but keep it simple for people in that era of time , place, community (desha-kAla-pAtra).


4. Regarding KRshNA: (lets talk about other popular ones too - see list)
Shri KRshNa appeared on earth in DwApar Yuga, yes, but what exactly descended here as "Shri KRshNa" is not known to many. What actually descended here is the entirity of Bramhan' - or
(i)as what devotees of KRshNa would call the " Sweetest butter-cream sifted off of of Bramhan"
(ii) "PAlanhAr, bhakta-vatsal" (care-taker, compassionate protector of those who turn to Him) -- on whom devotees can just depend , by hanging their logic-brains to the branch of a tree and relax.
(ii)Some would say "KRshNam vande Jagatgurum" => "Glories to Shri KRshNa the Universal Teacher, compassionate Guide to the Ultimate Truth"

For me He is both (i) (ii) (iii) and a lot lot more.
~*~*~ Have you ever walked with KRshNa towards the end end? He gives Himself to you , till there is nothing more left to GIVE. You become One with that Ultimate Absolute Truth - which is One by the way. ~*~*~

So it is your choice - whether He is a Guide, Teacher, Everything, Husband, Child, or GOD - since He has all these things in Him.

Funnily , though, at a point in your journey with Him , He asks you to worship or sing praises of Shiva. He is pleased by hearing praises of Shiva. If I want to go to Dwarka, He insists I go to Somnath. If I want to go to BadrinAth He insists I go to KedArnAth. If I play the Anuradha Paudwal tape "Om Namah ShivAy" He gets pleased and makes it evident as if saying "thanks for playing that" . Well, My Lord, if it brings a smile on Your face, certainly!

Simultaneously, I have a relationship with Shiv too, from the past, and when Shiv gets pleased by a VishNu/KRshNa devotee's devotion to Their Lord, He blesses them.

VishNu is pleased by Shiv-worship and Shiv is pleased by VishNu-worship

4. DattAtrya : Another group will say "No. My Guru DattAtreya is Bramhan. He takes me straight to NirguN, nirAkAr, nirAmay, ananta, nitya , nitya-trupta Bramhan. Infinite, endless, ever-blissed, formless, blemish-less, without qualifiers and quantifiers, ... not doing anything, not joining any team, not voting for/against anything...

Now this DattAtreya is a treta-yuga avatAr, with emphasis on the Guru-tattva , of the same VishNu who came as KRshNa in dwApar yuga. Both are very much alive in devotees' hearts till date and will remain, across yuga (eras).

Both are Gurus, as well as God

5. Shiv : Has a large following as you may see. Shiv is what remains when the samsAra - active existence ends or before it begins. VishNu is what enables noble living and takes you to the end and is there before it all began.

However, do not confuse the Universal Role of VishNu or Shiv with the behavior of their devotees, since whether they are there to take Their words and teachings as sacred commands OR to worship them as highly unreachable but worshipable and accessible God depends on their spiritual inclination and/or maturity

So Shiv is also Guru and/or God

6. Devi is the spiritual Power behind the Principle (tattva) of the Deva. She is One Umbrella "Adi Shakti" who again becomes the aspect of Power that matches the Principle - tattva. The Devi matching VishNu-tattva is Shri, Lakshmi. Matching Shiv Tattva is Gauri / DurgA...

They cross-over and interact also - not to confuse you though.

7. There is a sampradAy called ShAkta -- followers and worshippers of Shakti, Devi as Bramhan. They may not like what I wrote - that Devi is the Power aspect of the God Principle referenced at a point.

Devi is Mother -- who takes care of you in your mortal journey, teaches you right living and helps you transcend this world to the Eternal Principle.

Devi is also both Guru and God as well as the Mother Nature - that manifests as the "physical" Universe

CONCLUSION:
Everyone needs a Divine-holding-hand.
While it is true on the level of the Divine-Universal-Principal , BramhA = Creator, VishNu = protector-preserver Shiv = anhilator of all activity and manifestation , Devi = Mother Nature, Power behind each Divine Principle ,

Each of these KNOW They are Bramhan, and while playing Their Divine Roles, They also become God to you because they ARE Bramhan. They know it, whereas bound beings don't understand Bramhan in them or in anyone else.

It is the same non-material Bramhan, that weaves into becoming these eternal divine principles as well as all of the manifest universe.

This is the Universal truth.

You will find devotees getting annoyed that , for example, "I called their God a mere destroyer" but if you see that All of Them are none but Bramhan playing their respective roles, and while at it, being your savior, teacher, blesser, ... then suddenly you will see the whole picture and there remains no conflict. Just as they live in harmony , so can we.

|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||