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Hindus & Idol Worship

kalyan

Aspiring Sri VaishNava
First of all, its not an Idol , its called a deity. If you have picture of your mom and dad and if someone spits on it, how do you feel and it is a humble question...you feel agitated as you feel them inside that picture.

question to op--? Why do you worship a black stone at makkah anyway and circumambulate around it 7 times like sanatans does in temples ?
 

Aamer

Truth Seeker
First of all, its not an Idol , its called a deity. If you have picture of your mom and dad and if someone spits on it, how do you feel and it is a humble question...you feel agitated as you feel them inside that picture.

question to op--? Why do you worship a black stone at makkah anyway and circumambulate around it 7 times like sanatans does in temples ?

I don't worship the kaaba (black cube of Saturn). It's an idol. I'm not a follower. I'm a thinker. I have researched. I know that the kaaba is a Hindu symbol. The Hindu religion was in Arabia long before Islam. After the Prophet died, the Arabs went back to their pagan ways and conveniently mixed it with monotheism. Most of the stuff 99% of Muslims do is pagan in origin and has nothing to do with Quran. I'm guessing the same can be said for hindus and their practices vs scriptures.
 
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Aamer

Truth Seeker
Thanks for the informative responses guys. I understand the perspective some of you have expressed that you're not praying TO the idols but THROUGH the idols. I don't agree with it but I understand it. It's the same thing Muslims say about the kaaba. But my questions still haven't been answered. Perhaps I haven't done a good job explaining what I'm trying to find out. Let me ask two questions. If anyone knows, please do inform me.

1) Is it written anywhere in the Hindu scriptures to worship God through the use of statues?

2) Where do the stories and concepts of Ganesh, Hanuman, etc come from? The scriptures or tradition?

I lied, I have three questions actually...

3) I know the Hindu scriptures are very old so it may be hard to trace their origins. But who authored them? Do you believe them to be the word of God or prophets?

Oops I lied again. One more...

4) Do you know who brought each book? Like the Torah came through Moses, the Quran through Muhammad? Were there similar messengers of the Hindu scriptures or are the origins unknown?

Thank you for the information. I find the origins of religions interesting and am trying to see if there's a connection between Hinduism and the Abrahamic faiths. Peace.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Depends on who you ask, but ....

1) The agamas certainly lay this idea out there. Temples are designed traditionally based on the size of the murthy itself.
2) Stories, tradition, not major scriptures provide stories . The Gods themselves are far more than concepts to a Hindu. Thay are reality.
3. Nobody knows who authored the Vedas, or Agamas. Before recorded history.
4. No authors, the Vedas were originally oral, someone eventually transcribed them to make them also written.

I don't think you are likely to find many connections. Abrahamism and Sanatana Dharma are like night and day. Many people try to find connections and similarities, but its always quite the stretch, at least from this embodied jiva's POV.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram Aamer :namaste
So I've read the Old Testament, New Testament and Quran, and I'm just now starting to dig into the Hindu scriptures. I'm starting to think it's one message from one God, but some of the scriptures may have been altered. Anyway, my question to hindus is this. I haven't yet found any verse in your scriptures encouraging, condoning or allowing idol worship. I have, however, seen verses condemning it. This is surprising for me because I am Indian. I have always associated Hindu religion to idol worship. But the scriptures don't seem to match the current practice so far from what I have seen. Are there verses in the scriptures which encourage the worship of idols that exist today? Can you please show me where they are? And if you're Hindu, I'd love to get your perspective on worshiping statues, etc.

in the bhagavad gita krsna is explaining


'' I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.'' ch ... 10 v.... 8


'' To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.'' ch ... 10 v.... 10


(apart from self manifested deitys which do exist ) when a murti (form of the lord) is made it is simply a form , but inorder for the devotee to worship the murti as god a ceremony is performed inviting the lord (whichever form is being worshiped in that tradition) to enter into and reside in that murti in order to receive the devotees worship , from this point it is concidered that one is worshiping the lord himself , the lord cleary says that he pervades all things , and we have asked that he be present inorder to receive our devotions , therefore by worshiping the lord in this manner as the lord says he give us the understanding by which to come to him ,


therefore we are not worshiping an idol but a manifestation of the lord .



Do you believe they have the power to help you? Do you participate in it? I have many Hindu friends but they just follow the herd, like most members of every other religion. I'd like to hear from hindus who have actually studied and learned. Thanks.
firstly it depends what kind of help one is seaking , if one simply seeks the purification to see and feel the lords presence then the deitys help you as much as you have faith in them , I canot speak for all hindu only those of my own sect but from what I have observed the lord responds to his devotee when that devotee comes sincerely to the feet of the lord , the deeper the commitment the stronger the lords responce .

even when one visits different temples one will feel the different strengths of devotion there in the strength of the lords presence in the deity and in the temple itself as it is the lords home , having done deity service in different temples and to the deitys residing there , there is without question differences in the strength of presence and mood , and as a pujari one builds a very personal relationship with the deity that one serves , ....when one serves like this one is living with the deity then without doubt one knows that this is no statue , no representation . :namaste
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
So I've read the Old Testament, New Testament and Quran, and I'm just now starting to dig into the Hindu scriptures. I'm starting to think it's one message from one God, but some of the scriptures may have been altered. Anyway, my question to hindus is this. I haven't yet found any verse in your scriptures encouraging, condoning or allowing idol worship. I have, however, seen verses condemning it. This is surprising for me because I am Indian. I have always associated Hindu religion to idol worship. But the scriptures don't seem to match the current practice so far from what I have seen. Are there verses in the scriptures which encourage the worship of idols that exist today? Can you please show me where they are? And if you're Hindu, I'd love to get your perspective on worshiping statues, etc. Do you believe they have the power to help you? Do you participate in it? I have many Hindu friends but they just follow the herd, like most members of every other religion. I'd like to hear from hindus who have actually studied and learned. Thanks.

In Hinduism the Veda Mantra form the foundation of spirituality, society and philosophy, but as Veda means "To Know" and Mantra somewhat means "To apply the mind", so it cannot be held as dogmatic scriptural injunctions in my opinion. I don't think there is clear condemnation of Murti Puja in the Vedas, there is however a request to have a comprehensive understanding of the relationship of the observer to what is observed as many Mantra request praise of different Deva and Devi which are important aspects in our lives which is the observed part.

Those Deva and Devi are not the abrahamic interpretation of Gods in my opinion, Deva means, the bright, shining, radiant, those of light, those that abide in the sky, also it could mean donor, liberal or giver, this can be applied People and natural things as well, Devi is a female aspect of the same meanings, even English does not have a female aspect to these words.

In my opinion the Murti of Deva and Devi is a physical representation of our human desire to know and understand the universe in the most intimate way. Hindus who generally praise Murtis don't expects it to start walking around and eating the prasad (offering), they know it is impossible. Not many Murtis are constructed in normal human form, they generally have superhuman forms which symbolizes many different aspects of a particular Deva/Devi and also provide a general sense that these physical forms are only a artistic rendition of something higher then the individual self.

what i find in Hinduism is a scope of freedom of spirituality and a freedom of modes of puja and worship, in Hinduism there are Monotheist and polytheist living side by side.

Idol worship is worshiping God with a form from my understanding and as for murti puja it is when the Bhakta/devotee can immerse themselves in the ecstasy of complete oneness with the Deva/Devi represented by the Murti during their Puja of it.

One profound and honorable thing with Murti Puja has is the representation of the female aspect of the supreme in her many formidable yet aww inspiring forms, the supreme mother is best represented in the religions which have Murti Puja, no abrahamic religion can represent the female aspect of existence and the supreme in a way that can be found in the Murti Puja religions.

Plus i cant understand how a supreme being can even be against such a natural thing as Idol worship or Murti Puja?
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
In Hinduism the Veda Mantra form the foundation of spirituality, society and philosophy, but as Veda means "To Know" and Mantra somewhat means "To apply the mind", so it cannot be held as dogmatic scriptural injunctions in my opinion. I don't think there is clear condemnation of Murti Puja in the Vedas, there is however a request to have a comprehensive understanding of the relationship of the observer to what is observed as many Mantra request praise of different Deva and Devi which are important aspects in our lives which is the observed part.

Those Deva and Devi are not the abrahamic interpretation of Gods in my opinion, Deva means, the bright, shining, radiant, those of light, those that abide in the sky, also it could mean donor, liberal or giver, this can be applied People and natural things as well, Devi is a female aspect of the same meanings, even English does not have a female aspect to these words.

In my opinion the Murti of Deva and Devi is a physical representation of our human desire to know and understand the universe in the most intimate way. Hindus who generally praise Murtis don't expects it to start walking around and eating the prasad (offering), they know it is impossible. Not many Murtis are constructed in normal human form, they generally have superhuman forms which symbolizes many different aspects of a particular Deva/Devi and also provide a general sense that these physical forms are only a artistic rendition of something higher then the individual self.

what i find in Hinduism is a scope of freedom of spirituality and a freedom of modes of puja and worship, in Hinduism there are Monotheist and polytheist living side by side.

Idol worship is worshiping God with a form from my understanding and as for murti puja it is when the Bhakta/devotee can immerse themselves in the ecstasy of complete oneness with the Deva/Devi represented by the Murti during their Puja of it.

One profound and honorable thing with Murti Puja has is the representation of the female aspect of the supreme in her many formidable yet aww inspiring forms, the supreme mother is best represented in the religions which have Murti Puja, no abrahamic religion can represent the female aspect of existence and the supreme in a way that can be found in the Murti Puja religions.

Plus i cant understand how a supreme being can even be against such a natural thing as Idol worship or Murti Puja?

Well not since the move towards monotheism. Has you ever heard of Asherah?
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
What do you mean "not since move towards monotheism"?, and no never heard of Asherah.

Archaeological findings around the regions of ancient Israel appear to reveal that ancient Israelites were Polytheistic, and that the Mother Goddess was known as Asherah. There was an article I read on Nova that they had discovered writings that called her Consort of Yahweh and previously a consort of El (who I suppose got rolled into Yahweh).

Then a major change happened and you get the shift to Monotheism.

Of course this isn't really hidden in the Bible, but now that there is evident proof of it, it really makes you wonder who the Israelites were and where they come from you know.

But yeah Asherah was portrayed in a very nurturing fashion. Here's the article:
NOVA | The Many Gods of Israel
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
=FranklinMichaelV.3;3492902]Archaeological findings around the regions of ancient Israel appear to reveal that ancient Israelites were Polytheistic, and that the Mother Goddess was known as Asherah. There was an article I read on Nova that they had discovered writings that called her Consort of Yahweh and previously a consort of El (who I suppose got rolled into Yahweh).

Well that i did not know, so there was something similar to the Shakti/Devi aspect in the ancient Israel times, is she still worshiped?

Then a major change happened and you get the shift to Monotheism.

By major Shift i think you mean forced commandment by the male God don't you?

What happened to Asherah after the "Major shift".
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Well that i did not know, so there was something similar to the Shakti/Devi aspect in the ancient Israel times, is she still worshiped?



By major Shift i think you mean forced commandment by the male God don't you?

What happened to Asherah after the "Major shift".

Well there's the Biblical story and there is the historical story. The historical I think is still being pieced together.

In the Bible King Josiah discovers a document that proclaims only the One God and proceeds to destroy all the statues to Asherah.

I think the major shift was that they were taken captive into Babylon, which would later be taken by the Persians, I think much of what is considered the OT was finally written down during their time in Babylon, and the exposure to Zoroastranism may have had a role to play as well.

But that's speculation on my part.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Well there's the Biblical story and there is the historical story. The historical I think is still being pieced together.

In the Bible King Josiah discovers a document that proclaims only the One God and proceeds to destroy all the statues to Asherah.

I think the major shift was that they were taken captive into Babylon, which would later be taken by the Persians, I think much of what is considered the OT was finally written down during their time in Babylon, and the exposure to Zoroastranism may have had a role to play as well.

But that's speculation on my part.

Thanks, so is there still in the abrahamic religions including the Christian ones a aspect or characteristic of a equal supreme female power, or even consideration of a female having power to create?
 

Aamer

Truth Seeker
Thanks, so is there still in the abrahamic religions including the Christian ones a aspect or characteristic of a equal supreme female power, or even consideration of a female having power to create?

God does not have a gender in Abrahamic faiths. Gender is something created by God. God is not confined by the same limitations as us humans. And there is only one creator so there can be no equal supreme power, male or female.

Also I want to thank everyone for their replies. It's becoming clear to me that there is great wisdom and much to appreciate in the ancient Hindu scriptures. I am ready to learn more. However, after reading your responses, if there is no mention of worshipping through statues or other deities, I will have to say that this practice and approach is man made and illogical. If there is an almighty creator, would he need the help of statues to hear us? I know my assessment won't be popular. My belief that bowing down to a black cube in the dessert is man made is also unpopular with Muslims. But I mean no disrespect. Just stating what my logic tells me. Peace.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thanks, so is there still in the abrahamic religions including the Christian ones a aspect or characteristic of a equal supreme female power, or even consideration of a female having power to create?
Though it was once more prevalent, in the West the male-dominated celibate priesthood has masculinized the divine into their own image quite successfully (and detrimentally one should add). The feminine has and does exist in Judasim and Christianity as Sophia, or Wisdom. Mystical traditions tend to include the feminine, as it is in fact quite natural as someone follows a contemplative path into the deeper aspects of the self. Both the masculine and feminine exist within us, so naturally it will manifest in higher forms, the deva and devi, so to speak.

I recently came across this term I think may be useful. Christosophia, where it sees Christ as the expression of both the masculine and feminine qualities of the divine. The call of ChristoSophia, the Divine Feminine
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am ready to learn more. However, after reading your responses, if there is no mention of worshipping through statues or other deities, I will have to say that this practice and approach is man made and illogical. If there is an almighty creator, would he need the help of statues to hear us?
If I may offer a thought for you? I think your difficulty in understanding this is in how you imagine God to be. Bear with my thoughts here.

What exactly is an idol but an image of God. If you or I or anyone holds any sort of mental image of God, that too is not God. But that image serves a purpose for us. It is something we focus the mind upon in contemplating that which is wholly beyond form. We exist in form. We see the world in terms of duality (subject/object relationships). There is "me" and there is "you", "self" and "other". It is the same for us when we speak of or imagine with the mind, God. There is you here, and God there.

Even your saying above in asking this, "If there is an almighty creator, would he need the help of statues to hear us?," reflects a mental image of God you have and hold to. It represents God as external to you and others. It is a dualistic representation. It is a mental concept you have and imagine to be God. And if this, or any other mental image of God you have is anything you name God, and there is no truth beyond that image itself, can't that be termed "idolatry", placing an image as God itself?

But the use of images, mental or physical representations, do in fact hold a useful, and positive role for us as humans in order to relate to that which is wholly transcendent, that which is beyond all duality, that which is nondual. It is in fact that through these images, these representations we either have in mental forms or physical forms, that we are able to transcend duality into the formless, or Emptiness, or Ground, and into the nondual, or formlessness in form.

What happens is that in meditation, in contemplation or mystical experience there is a union that occurs where through the mental form we become one with God, and then something happens, that God, or the formless merges into you and the image dissolves or disappears. Take a few minutes to digest what is being said in this explanation here:

"But this is not God as an ontological other, set apart from the cosmos, from humans, and from creation at large. Rather, it is God as an archetypal summit of one's own Consciousness. ... By visualizing that identification 'we actually do become the deity. The subject is identified with the object of faith. The worship, the worshiper, and the worshiped, those three are not separate'. At its peak, the soul becomes one, literally one, with the deity-form, with the dhyani-buddha, with (choose whatever term one prefers) God. One dissolves into Deity, as Deity - that Deity which, from the beginning, has been one's own Self or highest Archetype."


~Ken Wilber, Eye to Eye, pg. 85​

Another quote that you may relate to more easily contains this in more poetic form by a Sufi mystic of the 9th century,

“There are lights which ascend and lights which descend. The ascending lights are the lights of the heart; the descending lights are those of the Throne. The false self is the veil between the Throne and the heart. When this veil is torn, and a door opens in the heart, like springs towards like. Light ascends toward light and light descends upon light, and it is ‘light upon light’.

When each time the heart sighs for the throne the throne sighs for the heart, so they come to meet. Each time a light ascends from you, a light descends toward you. If their energies are equal, then they meet halfway. But when the substance of light has grown in you, then this makes up a whole in relation to what is in the same nature in Heaven. Then, it is the substance of light in Heaven that longs for you, and is drawn to your light, and it descends toward you. This is the secret of the mystical journey.”

~9th Century Sufi mystic, Najim al-Din Hubra​

Even these lights, which are common in mystical experience, are a form of the divine, or subtle energies our higher minds experience, as we move from the gross realm of physical form, through the higher realms of subtle forms, to the formless itself. Eventually, these too disappear.

There's something that Jesus said that relates, I believe. He said that true worshipers will worship in "spirit and in truth". That is what happens in mystical experience. You see beyond the concepts or images we have of God, whether mental or physical as they are both and all just forms, to where we "know" or directly experience the divine within us and in all things. And that "Truth", is itself not a proposition, not an idea or set of beliefs, but the nature or essence of all truths, or best said as Illumination.

If you, I, or anyone stops at the image, mental or material and imagines that is what God is and stops there, they are falling short of getting in touch with that which is beyond all forms.

So, in looking merely at the surfaces of forms, be mindful you aren't yourself reducing God to only an idol. :)
 
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