Historical Accuracy of the Bible

[d.n.irvin]

I still don't understand, The account of Neb's dream in Daniel 2 in mentioned in the Bible for one reason only- to give Gods people a look into future events.


How do you respond to this: You have a dream, but you can't remember it. I tell you your dream(That you confirm is correct) and the interpretation of the dream. That you confirm is correct. The event is recorded. Some time years later someone studying the events recognizes that these events where not only relevant for that time, but that the events have meaning in this time. Now if you confirmed that the former were true, why not the latter be true also, all things considered?

 

[joeboonda]

No it doesn't. The Bible is not meant to be a history record, science book, etc. It is meant to be theology.

I agree, it is God's Word. All I am saying is that where it mentions historical cities, tribes, kings, governors, etc. it is accurate, too.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How do you respond to this: You have a dream, but you can't remember it. I tell you your dream(That you confirm is correct) and the interpretation of the dream. That you confirm is correct. The event is recorded. Some time years later someone studying the events recognizes that these events where not only relevant for that time, but that the events have meaning in this time. Now if you confirmed that the former were true, why not the latter be true also, all things considered?

I'm not sure what you're referring to as the "former" and the "latter", but here's the problem with prophecies: they're flexible to the situation. If you have a prophecy that doesn't fit the history, it can be explained away as not having been fulfilled. If you have one that matches what happens, but only by matter of coincidence, you can claim it as evidence that it was correct.

In this case, you decide on what's true, and then seize on the available "clues":

- Aha! The Medo-Persians used silver for their taxes (though they used other metals for other purposes)! They must be the "silver" empire!
- Aha! The Greeks had bronze armour (though they also used silver as currency, and used other metals for other purposes)! They must be the "bronze" empire!
- Aha! The Romans used iron swords (though, IIRC, the Greeks did as well, and the Romans used gold and silver coins for currency, and bronze armour like the Greeks)! They must be the "iron" empire!

You see? You've already decided on your conclusion, then you select facts to suit it.

 

[doppelganger]

I still don't understand, The account of Neb's dream in Daniel 2 in mentioned in the Bible for one reason only- to give Gods people a look into future events.

Unless, as many historians and Biblical scholars maintain, the book wasn't written until the mid-second century B.C.E., which would make it history rather than prophecy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_daniel#Dating_and_content

 

[Runt]

Runt, examples please.

Would you like me to cite every textbook I've used---not to mention every article, book, essay and video I've referenced or viewed---during the course of my education??? I can do it---they're all sitting on my shelves at home---but that's about $500-$700 worth of materials PER SEMESTER you're asking me to cite. Perhaps I should just start another thread?

 

[d.n.irvin]

Will you believe God or Man that what its gonna come down too folks.
When we read the Bible from beginning to end, their are two types of people the righteous and the wicked- those who obey the commandments of God - those who obey the commandments of men.

Now what to do with unbelief? Thats the Question

And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:23

Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 1 Timothy 11:3

 

[Bishka]

I agree, it is God's Word. All I am saying is that where it mentions historical cities, tribes, kings, governors, etc. it is accurate, too.

Accurate enough to say that they were there, but it doesn't prove that events happened in those cities. Just that they existed.

 

[d.n.irvin]

Hey man I'm not here to start stuff- I just a truth seeker- just wanted you to be more specific. kindly please Sir

 

[Runt]

Will you believe God or Man that what its gonna come down too folks.

I think I'll trust Man, since the God who is presented in the Bible is vague, inconsistent, deliberately cruel, and based on some of the ridiculous things said in the Bible (Jonah was swallowed by a whale, Eve was formed from Adam's rib, the Earth was created in seven days, etc) either a liar, a fool, a lunatic, a storyteller, or all four.

When we read the Bible from beginning to end, their are two types of people the righteous and the wicked- those who obey the commandments of God - those who obey the commandments of men.

When we read the Bible from beginning to end, there are two types of people: the logical and the illogical- those who recognize its flaws and take it as figurative or leave it as rubbish, and those who ignore or are oblivious to its flaws and believe it blindly.

Now what to do with unbelief? Thats the Question

Leave mythology behind and begin to explore the beauty and majesty of the universe as it truly is, rather than as ancient men believed it to be.

 

[gnostic]

The Bible does one thing. It points us to Jesus. It gives us knowledge about God and just how much he loves us. Anything else is merely conjecture. I personally can't argue or debate the Bible. But I can share some of my beliefs and why I believe them.

The OT Bible, or more precisely the Hebrew scriptures, Tanakh, doesn't point to Jesus at all. Ask any Jew, and they don't believe Jesus is a Messiah, and that all writings in the NT are not integral part of their religion.

And as Runt have pointed out to you (in post #60), the Bible has nothing to do with historical accuracy, but faith on what you believe to be true.

Truth, especially religious truth, however don't often coincide with facts.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Unless, as many historians and Biblical scholars maintain, the book wasn't written until the mid-second century B.C.E., which would make it history rather than prophecy.

Mid-second-century, i.e., 150 BCE? I doubt it. :no:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Right, it simply proves that the cities, kings, etc. mentioned in the Bible did indeed exist hence the historical accuracy of the Bible.

Good grief. Are all books referencing real people and places to be deemed 'historically accurate'? Think!

 

[doppelganger]

Mid-second-century, i.e., 150 BCE? I doubt it. :no:

167 to be precise. You're free to doubt it, but several scholars consider that view probable, based on the theory that Daniel was likely written in response the "abomination which causes desolation" - the erection of a statue of Zeus in the Temple in 167.

In addition to the Wiki article:

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/daniel.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/daniel.htm

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

167 to be precise. You're free to doubt it, but several scholars consider that view probable, ...

I understand. And, yes, I'm free to doubt it.

In addition to the Wiki article: ..

But let's first fully appreciate what is found in Wiki, including:

Language

Scholars have speculated about the bilingual literary structure of Daniel - Chapters 2 through 7 in Aramaic, the rest in Hebrew. One of the most frequent speculations is that the entire book (excepting 9:4-20) was originally written in Aramaic, with portions translated into Hebrew, possibly to increase acceptance (Hartman and Di Lella, 1990, p. 408) - many Aramaisms in the Hebrew text find proposed explanation by the hypothesis of an inexact initial translation into Hebrew.

According to John Collins in his 1993 commentary, Daniel, Hermennia Commentary, the Aramaic in Daniel is of a later form than that used in the Samaria correspondence, but slightly earlier than the form used in the Dead Sea Scrolls, meaning that the Aramaic chapters 2-6 may have been written earlier in the Hellenistic period than the rest of the book, with the vision in chapter 7 being the only Aramaic portion dating to the time of Antiochus. The Hebrew portion is, for all intents and purposes, identical to that found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, suggesting a second century BC date for the Hebrew chapters 1 and 8-12.​

In any event, you absolutely correct to note that using Daniel as an argument for historical accuracy is laughable.

 

[Quagmire]

Unless, as many historians and Biblical scholars maintain, the book wasn't written until the mid-second century B.C.E., which would make it history rather than prophecy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_daniel#Dating_and_content

The theory that the prophetical portion of Daniel was an interpolation by an author writing during (or after) the Macabeean Rebellion makes the most sense to me.

But it doesn't explain the prediction of the fourth kingdom which could be reasonably be interpreted as prophecy concerning Rome; 2 legs representing an empire that eventually split in two? And that centuries after the latest possible dating for the story.

Makes ya think (well OK, makes me think).

 

[d.n.irvin]

[FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0]The whole problem of the dating of Daniel really has nothing to do with evidence. The reason the Maccabeean theory was proposed was because of a prior philosophical belief that fulfilled prophecy can not happen. We are 100% certain no one would doubt the authenticity of Daniel if the prophetic aspects of Daniel were ignored - and if this were any OTHER book, without the prophecy, critics would date it early without any hesitation! (It is noted, for example, that other books found at Qumran have been dated earlier thanks to those finds - but not Daniel! - MillS.Dan, 38. That this is no more than a begged question and special pleading is exemplified by Maurice Casey's response [Son of Man, 11] that "There is nothing wrong with the suggestion that it was successful quickly" [!]. If a "fundamentalist" suggested this for the Gospels they would be hanged from a yardarm! There is also no parallel, as Skeptic X alleges, to Jeremiah and Isaiah being accepted in their own lifetimes; the Qumran people would not know a man named Daniel from the 600s BC as Jeremiah and Isaiah's contemporaries knew them! There is also no parallel, as Richard/Robert Packham thinks, with the Book of Mormon and other works -- the BoM was accepted as a "rebellion" to an established canon; unless similar evidence is shown for Daniel, Packham is merely blowing hot air and making an illicit comparison.)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0]
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0] We can't ignore the prophecies, though: They are unified with the text as a whole and the text was written prior to the second century B.C. - by evidence, in the sixth. How was the writer of Daniel able to write down the future of some of the strongest empires the western world has known before they happened in such a precise manner? We leave this to the reader to decide.[/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0]Summary Taken From "Book of Daniel Defended"
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0]http://www.tektonics.org/af/danieldefense.html#conc
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The whole problem of the dating of Daniel really has nothing to do with evidence.

Nonsense.

 

[joeboonda]

Harry Thomas Frank has written an excellent summation of the accuracy of the Bible, saying, "If, for example, the recovery of ancient Middle Eastern life had shown that the Biblical writers were either incorrect in what history they do report or had sought to falsify it, there would be serious repercussions concerning the veracity of other Biblical statements. Just the opposite has in fact happened. Archaeological recovery of ancient life has tended at point after point to show with what faithfulness the Biblical writers recorded contemporary events. This indicates that the Bible as a primary historical document is a trustworthy guide to those events and situations which it describes." [DISCOVERING THE BIBLICAL WORLD, Hammond Inc., Maplewood, N.J., 1975, p.17].

 

[logician]

The XIan bible contains accounts of many impossible events, either it is historically inaccurate, or we must suspend the laws of science.

 

[d.n.irvin]

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Daniel 12:4

A portion of the book of Daniel was not to be understood "until the time of the end." At the time of the end, many would run too and fro through the scriptures, comparing text with text, and understand these prophecies. We have reached that time

The Bible also predicts a time when it will be too late to search the scriptures.
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it. In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst. Amos 8:11-13

However, the good news is that some people will understand and be ready for the Lord when He returns. "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." Daniel 12:10

The primary application of "knowledge increased" is in reference to people understanding the prophecies of the book of Daniel, however, many Bible scholars believe that this prophecy also applies to an increasing knowledge of science, medicine, travel, and technology.

We are living in "The Information Age" making this sign seem even more obvious. Even the most skeptical mind must admit that knowledge is exploding in all directions. It is said that 80% percent of the world's total knowledge has been brought forth in the last decade and that 90% percent of all the scientists who have ever lived are alive today.

" BibleUniverse.com/Bible Prophesy/Second Comming/Increased Knowledge "