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Historical Case for the Resurrection of Jesus

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The spirit of truth within me validates the resurrection of Jesus 2000 years ago. I believed long before I ever read the Gospels.
This is you appropriating the word truth to mean whatever belief appeals to you. Just pointing out again that what you call truth is not what an empiricist calls truth. What you call truth is what I call unfalsifiable belief - "not even wrong."
Science is useless in analyzing spirituality.
Empiricism is able to evaluate all of reality that can be experienced. That experience is evidence. I have a very good idea of what it is believers call spirituality, and I learned it from experience. Some mean anything to do with spirits like god, angels, and ghosts. Some are referring to a euphoric experience of connectedness and mistaking it for apprehending spirits.
I can state my faith in God just like you can state your faith in a Godless universe.
Agreed. I said so. I even asked you to frame it that way.
The Atheist faith is a sort of comfort while whistling past the graveyard
I don't need comforting walking past a graveyard. You might, but I don't believe in spirits or demons. Faith comforts YOU. I've abandoned it, because it is not needed and I have good reason to distrust it.
No you haven´t provided and developed a naturalistic hypothesis
How would you know? You don't read what's written to you, claim you never saw it, and then refuse to search for the posts you say don't exist. You get no more than that. You don't do your part. You just complain that people don't meet your expectations and expect them to do the heavy lifting for you. No, Leroy. No.
and yes it is necessary to provide such hypothesis because that is what the OP is about.
No. The OP is a fallacious argument for resurrection. Even though it's been done multiple times, it is not necessary to provide an alternate hypothesis to reject a fallacious argument. One only need to demonstrate the fallacy or fallacies.
If you are not willing to provide a naturalistic hypothesis then why did you participated in a thread where that is the main topic and main requirement?
If you weren't willing to read and assimilate what was written to you, why are you questioning the motives of others?
I am not claiming that I can show the resurrection beyond reasonable doubt.
You also can't show it is even possible, or that if it is, that it occurred on earth.
Also note my courtesy, I am accusing you for making a logical fallacy, and I supported that accusation by quoting your actual words………….. (why don’t you show the same courtesy when you make random accusations of me committing fallacies?)
Your courtesy? It's your "courtesy" that has me telling you that I have no duty to answer any question from you. You expect more than you give. You are full of demands and expectations but give nothing to others. Go find my hypothesis or stand down. It couldn't be easier. I gave you a roadmap to finding it. I found it more than once using that method. Your refusal to even try to accommodate others is what defines this interaction for me. My only interest is not in what you believe or why you believe it, but in why you don't seem to be able to adapt to your linguistic environment - why you never seem to understand what is told you or won't do the things asked of you even when they facilitate your apparent purpose. What else is interesting here?

Did you ever see the movie The Miracle Worker about a woman trying to teach a deaf and blind girl about words? The girls didn't know about them. I vaguely remember the teacher signing water over and over as she poured water on the girls hands, and then the epiphany as the little girl finally catches on, smiles in wonder, and in her deaf speech, says "Watah?" "Yes, Helen, yes!" Here are the frustration, the lesson, and the epiphany. Annie got through! :

1691594192238.png


This is how I feel on these threads at times. How do I get through? What words can I write that will lead to the equivalent of "Watah?" coming from you? What if anything would get you to do that search and produce that hypothesis you insist doesn't exist so I can say, "Yes, Leroy, yes!" Maybe nothing can do that, but I simply can't believe that - not yet.
Those are not my arguments
They are when you defend them.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
Then there can't be evidence for it.


LOL
Both false and irrelevant.

You can´t define Dog ether, but that doesn’t mean that there is no evidence for dogs. (any definition would be ether circular or will have exceptions)

And irrelevant because the claim in the OP is that the resurrection is the best hypothesis for explaining the so called be rock facts………….. whether if you whant to label it as supernatural or not, is irrelevant.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
And evidence that you take care of someone else's dog.
And evidence that you like to eat dogfood yourself.
And evidence that you manage a dog-hotel for people who go on vacation.
...

There are a multitude of reasons for why you might want to buy dogfood.
You buying dogfood is consistent with any one of these options.
Which is why you have to remove the word “exclusivley from your definition?”



Yes me buying dog food is evidence for me having a dog, but the observation is not exclusive for that hypothesis,
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Both false and irrelevant.

You can´t define Dog ether, but that doesn’t mean that there is no evidence for dogs. (any definition would be ether circular or will have exceptions)

And irrelevant because the claim in the OP is that the resurrection is the best hypothesis for explaining the so called be rock facts………….. whether if you whant to label it as supernatural or not, is irrelevant.
Oh okay. Well, I think snerflesnocks is responsible for the resurrection. Please expound upon your feelings about snerflesnocks being responsible for the resurrection.


Oh and here's the definition of "dog":

dog​

noun


1a: CANID
wolves, foxes, and other dogs

especially : a highly variable domestic mammal (Canis familiaris) closely related to the gray wolf
the family's pet dog


b: a male dog
dogs and *****es

also : a male usually carnivorous mammal

2a: a worthless or contemptible person

b: FELLOW, CHAP
a lazy dog

you lucky dog

3a: any of various usually simple mechanical devices for holding, gripping, or fastening that consist of a spike, bar, or hook

b: ANDIRON

4: uncharacteristic or affected stylishness or dignity
put on the dog

5 capitalized astronomy : either of the constellations Canis Major or Canis Minor


6 dogs plural, anatomy : FEET
rest his tired dogs



7 dogs plural : RUIN
going to the dogs

8: one inferior of its kind
the movie was a dog
: such as a: an investment not worth its price

b: an undesirable piece of merchandise

9: an unattractive person
especially : an unattractive girl or woman


10: HOT DOG sense 1
bought two dogs and a beer


 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No he didnt, he avoided the question, I don’t understand your need to make up stuff
"And evidence that you take care of someone else's dog.
And evidence that you like to eat dogfood yourself.
And evidence that you manage a dog-hotel for people who go on vacation.
...

There are a multitude of reasons for why you might want to buy dogfood.
You buying dogfood is consistent with any one of these options."
-Post #987

edit............. I apologize, post 987 does has an answer


Cool. No more claims about it then, right?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
This is you appropriating the word truth to mean whatever belief appeals to you. Just pointing out again that what you call truth is not what an empiricist calls truth. What you call truth is what I call unfalsifiable belief - "not even wrong."

Empiricism is able to evaluate all of reality that can be experienced. That experience is evidence. I have a very good idea of what it is believers call spirituality, and I learned it from experience. Some mean anything to do with spirits like god, angels, and ghosts. Some are referring to a euphoric experience of connectedness and mistaking it for apprehending spirits.

Agreed. I said so. I even asked you to frame it that way.

I don't need comforting walking past a graveyard. You might, but I don't believe in spirits or demons. Faith comforts YOU. I've abandoned it, because it is not needed and I have good reason to distrust it.

How would you know? You don't read what's written to you, claim you never saw it, and then refuse to search for the posts you say don't exist. You get no more than that. You don't do your part. You just complain that people don't meet your expectations and expect them to do the heavy lifting for you. No, Leroy. No.

No. The OP is a fallacious argument for resurrection. Even though it's been done multiple times, it is not necessary to provide an alternate hypothesis to reject a fallacious argument. One only need to demonstrate the fallacy or fallacies.

If you weren't willing to read and assimilate what was written to you, why are you questioning the motives of others?

You also can't show it is even possible, or that if it is, that it occurred on earth.

Your courtesy? It's your "courtesy" that has me telling you that I have no duty to answer any question from you. You expect more than you give. You are full of demands and expectations but give nothing to others. Go find my hypothesis or stand down. It couldn't be easier. I gave you a roadmap to finding it. I found it more than once using that method. Your refusal to even try to accommodate others is what defines this interaction for me. My only interest is not in what you believe or why you believe it, but in why you don't seem to be able to adapt to your linguistic environment - why you never seem to understand what is told you or won't do the things asked of you even when they facilitate your apparent purpose. What else is interesting here?

Did you ever see the movie The Miracle Worker about a woman trying to teach a deaf and blind girl about words? The girls didn't know about them. I vaguely remember the teacher signing water over and over as she poured water on the girls hands, and then the epiphany as the little girl finally catches on, smiles in wonder, and in her deaf speech, says "Watah?" "Yes, Helen, yes!" Here are the frustration, the lesson, and the epiphany. Annie got through! :

View attachment 80475

This is how I feel on these threads at times. How do I get through? What words can I write that will lead to the equivalent of "Watah?" coming from you? What if anything would get you to do that search and produce that hypothesis you insist doesn't exist so I can say, "Yes, Leroy, yes!" Maybe nothing can do that, but I simply can't believe that - not yet.

They are when you defend them.
You don't acknowledge the existence of spiritual truth, you insist that you are only a mechanistic phenomenon. Its frustrating to your need to control others that despite all of your attempt at humanist truth, we still have Living faith in God.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
This is you appropriating the word truth to mean whatever belief appeals to you. Just pointing out again that what you call truth is not what an empiricist calls truth. What you call truth is what I call unfalsifiable belief - "not even wrong."

Empiricism is able to evaluate all of reality that can be experienced. That experience is evidence. I have a very good idea of what it is believers call spirituality, and I learned it from experience. Some mean anything to do with spirits like god, angels, and ghosts. Some are referring to a euphoric experience of connectedness and mistaking it for apprehending spirits.

Agreed. I said so. I even asked you to frame it that way.

I don't need comforting walking past a graveyard. You might, but I don't believe in spirits or demons. Faith comforts YOU. I've abandoned it, because it is not needed and I have good reason to distrust it.

How would you know? You don't read what's written to you, claim you never saw it, and then refuse to search for the posts you say don't exist. You get no more than that. You don't do your part. You just complain that people don't meet your expectations and expect them to do the heavy lifting for you. No, Leroy. No.

No. The OP is a fallacious argument for resurrection. Even though it's been done multiple times, it is not necessary to provide an alternate hypothesis to reject a fallacious argument. One only need to demonstrate the fallacy or fallacies.

If you weren't willing to read and assimilate what was written to you, why are you questioning the motives of others?

You also can't show it is even possible, or that if it is, that it occurred on earth.

Your courtesy? It's your "courtesy" that has me telling you that I have no duty to answer any question from you. You expect more than you give. You are full of demands and expectations but give nothing to others. Go find my hypothesis or stand down. It couldn't be easier. I gave you a roadmap to finding it. I found it more than once using that method. Your refusal to even try to accommodate others is what defines this interaction for me. My only interest is not in what you believe or why you believe it, but in why you don't seem to be able to adapt to your linguistic environment - why you never seem to understand what is told you or won't do the things asked of you even when they facilitate your apparent purpose. What else is interesting here?

Did you ever see the movie The Miracle Worker about a woman trying to teach a deaf and blind girl about words? The girls didn't know about them. I vaguely remember the teacher signing water over and over as she poured water on the girls hands, and then the epiphany as the little girl finally catches on, smiles in wonder, and in her deaf speech, says "Watah?" "Yes, Helen, yes!" Here are the frustration, the lesson, and the epiphany. Annie got through! :

View attachment 80475

This is how I feel on these threads at times. How do I get through? What words can I write that will lead to the equivalent of "Watah?" coming from you? What if anything would get you to do that search and produce that hypothesis you insist doesn't exist so I can say, "Yes, Leroy, yes!" Maybe nothing can do that, but I simply can't believe that - not yet.

They are when you defend them.
The OP *is* largely about naturalistic hypothesis and how they fail when compared with the resurrection.

It is your burden to show that that the author is wrong and that at least one naturalistic hypothesis is better (using the criteria explain in that same post)

You haven’t done that, and you know it
 

lukethethird

unknown member
You don't acknowledge the existence of spiritual truth, you insist that you are only a mechanistic phenomenon. Its frustrating to your need to control others that despite all of your attempt at humanist truth, we still have Living faith in God .
No one cares and no one is stopping you from going into your little corner and praying to your God all you want. Why should you care if others don't?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The OP *is* largely about naturalistic hypothesis and how they fail when compared with the resurrection.

It is your burden to show that that the author is wrong and that at least one naturalistic hypothesis is better (using the criteria explain in that same post)

You haven’t done that, and you know it

As previous responses to this claim, the naturalist hypothesis has not failed. It simply claims there are not any independent confirmations for the occurrence of this supernatural event, nor records of independent witnesses at the time the resurrection is supposed to take place.

Academic references have no basis for confirming that supernatural events described in the ancient scriptures of ALL religions ever took place. Nothing of the gospels is dated remotely before 100 AD. No available records that Jesus ever lived and resurrected at the time the gospels described.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Cool. No more claims about it then, right?
No more cliams about that................, and you have the opportunity to show that you are honest enough to correct someone even if he shares your world view.

This is his definition of evidence

“Evidence is any available body of independently verifiable facts that either exclusively matches or contradicts the testable predictions of a certain hypothesis / theory / idea.”

The observation of me buying dog food is evidence that I have a Dog, but that observation is not exclusive for that hypothesis….. therefore the definition of evidence is wrong…… (the term exclusive should be replaced by a softer term)
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
No more cliams about that................, and you have the opportunity to show that you are honest enough to correct someone even if he shares your world view.

This is his definition of evidence

“Evidence is any available body of independently verifiable facts that either exclusively matches or contradicts the testable predictions of a certain hypothesis / theory / idea.”

The observation of me buying dog food is evidence that I have a Dog, but that observation is not exclusive for that hypothesis….. therefore the definition of evidence is wrong…… (the term exclusive should be replaced by a softer term)

Not relevant to the hypothesis of the resurrection is true. There is no evidence for the resurrection for the correct definition you cited.

You should not change definitions in a vain effort to suit your agenda. Regardless you may buy dog food to feed rabbits, squirrels, cockroaches, or, because you like to eat dog food. This has nothing to do with the evidence for the claim of the resurrection of Jesus.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No more cliams about that................, and you have the opportunity to show that you are honest enough to correct someone even if he shares your world view.

This is his definition of evidence

“Evidence is any available body of independently verifiable facts that either exclusively matches or contradicts the testable predictions of a certain hypothesis / theory / idea.”

The observation of me buying dog food is evidence that I have a Dog, but that observation is not exclusive for that hypothesis….. therefore the definition of evidence is wrong…… (the term exclusive should be replaced by a softer term)
There could be any number of reasons you are buying dog food, as the poster explained. You would need further evidence to figure out why you are buying the dog food, because there are a number of different reasons that you could be buying the dog food. It could be evidence that you have a dog, but further evidence would be required to corroborate that. Like, maybe we go to your house and see that you have a dog there.

It could also be evidence that you're watching your neighbor's dog. We would need more information to make a determination of that. Etc., etc.

The poster's definition works just fine.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I don't have a hypothesis nor do I need one. We're talking about your arguments and your claims here.
You claimed there were a whole bunch of witnesses to the resurrection and I am currently disputing that claim.
Well you are expected to have a hypothesis………. That is the intend of the OP….why are you running away from that challenge?........ the OP even has rules to determine which hypotheis is better……………….so all you have to do is provide your hypotheiss and explain why is it better.

Some of the witnesses of the resurrection are reported in the verses that I quoted yesterday.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

The evidence that these appearances where real are:

1 at least some are multiple attested in other sources

2 the creed is early, dated within 2 years after the crucifixion. (not enough time to claim myth or legend)

3 it explains why Paul and James where converted, and why the apostles had more faith (trust) in Jesus than ever before

4 it explains the fact that the apostles honestly and sincerely believed in the resurrection

5 this was written within 20 years after the crucifixion, the witnesses where still alive , paul was in a position to know that really happened. And skeptics where is a position to refute Paul’s claims.

6 it explains the flourishment of the Christian movement .

Now, I understand that you are a natrualists and that resurrection are impossible (or highly unlikely) under your own philosophical view………….. but why should I or anyone else grant naturalism? Can you show that naturalism is true beyond reasonable doubt?

If you don’t show that naturalism is true beyond reasonable doubt, then you have to consider seriously the possibility of events that defy natural laws
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
There could be any number of reasons you are buying dog food, as the poster explained. You would need further evidence to figure out why you are buying the dog food, because there are a number of different reasons that you could be buying the dog food. It could be evidence that you have a dog, but further evidence would be required to corroborate that. Like, maybe we go to your house and see that you have a dog there.

It could also be evidence that you're watching your neighbor's dog. We would need more information to make a determination of that. Etc., etc.

The poster's definition works just fine.
Yes that is the point……….. an observation would be evidence for more than 1 hypothesis.

Therefore the word “exlusivley” should be removed from the definition.

I proposed to change the word “exlusive” for “incising the probability”………….. But my suggestion was rejected.

The fact that you observed me buying dog food increases the probability that I have a dog, which is why this observation is “evidence” that I have a Dog.
 
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