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Historical Case for the Resurrection of Jesus

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Materialist claim that everything they think, believe or feel was first tested in a lab!
No, they don't. That's the theists' caricature of life outside of faith.
Thats BS!
No argument, but it's your BS, not mine.
Those who would invent a religion without God are like those who would gather fruit without trees
I'd say that a worldview WITH a god is more like fruit without trees.
only the I AM is causeless
We don't need gods for anything including first causes or the uncaused.
The fact of religious experience implies God
No, it implies that people can have experiences that they interpret as gods.
You cannot pray to a chemical formula, supplicate a mathematical equation, worship a hypothesis, confide in a postulate, commune with a process, serve an abstraction, or hold loving fellowship with a law.
In my opinion, you have a "personal relationship" with nothing more substantial that a hypothesis.
The intellectual earmark of religion is certainty
No argument, but you probably see that as a virtue.
the social fruits are love and service
Not in my experience. Religion has little to do with either. The form most prevalent in the West is about gaining heaven and avoiding hell through submission and obedience to commandments. If you recall the pandemic, the religions were scarce while governments were feeding people and subsidizing and sustaining families and economies. Where were the Catholics and Mormons and their big bank accounts?

There's nothing of value coming from religion that isn't done better by secular agencies. I was an intern and resident in a private, for-profit, Catholic hospital. The uninsured were shipped to the local public hospital to be treated on the taxpayers dollar.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I don't think so, my faith is a gift, belief in the resurrection is privilege of being born again of the spirit. I always say that its inexplicable, not a matter of intelligence or education. Those who knew Jesus in the flesh also lived by faith in his teaching, it was the Father that bore witness to the truth of his identity. After Pentecost they had the gift of the spirit. Today believers are blessed to have the spirit of Jesus within.
Your acrid accusations and criticism of atheists clearly reflect an over-the-top sense of superiority.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I don't think so, my faith is a gift, belief in the resurrection is privilege of being born again of the spirit. I always say that its inexplicable, not a matter of intelligence or education. Those who knew Jesus in the flesh also lived by faith in his teaching, it was the Father that bore witness to the truth of his identity. After Pentecost they had the gift of the spirit. Today believers are blessed to have the spirit of Jesus within.
Is this text you copied from a brochure selling a religion?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I don't use the word truth to apply to false ideas, insufficiently evidenced ideas, or unfalsifiable ideas.

That's how you describe being a critical thinker and strict empiricist as if he were missing some dimension because he doesn't join you in comforting flights of reverie - another variation of "I see further, you are a myopic materialist locked into scientism so you can't see my truths."

If you had truths, you could share them, and others would recognize them as such. But you don't so you can't.

Here's another, one of my favorites. This guy has atheists blindly bumping into walls making measurements. Gotta love the dig he takes at religion. You see, he's spiritual, and they're only religious, so his beliefs are authentic and theirs are derivative, but at least they're not like a robot vacuums with zero inner life like atheists.

View attachment 80476

I have no desire to control you. I'm correcting you. I don't expect it to modify your thinking, but hopefully it is useful to other skeptics making similar arguments. What I'm offering is not a different opinion, but another way to express it. What's different isn't the message. It's the demeanor. Look at how I write to you. Your truth is not my truth. If you had truth you could share it, but you don't and can't. Your faith is fine but don't call it reason. That's different than merely rebutting you.

Look at what I say to Leroy. He doesn't read what written to him. He engages in bad faith argumentation. He has no right to expect anything from other posters when he gives nothing.

Hey, if you have to be stuck with faith and a religion - words which seem to garner a lot of criticism - then everybody else does, too, right?

"I always flinch in embarrassment for the believer who trots out, 'Atheism is just another kind of faith,' because it's a tacit admission that taking claims on faith is a silly thing to do. When you've succumbed to arguing that the opposition is just as misguided as you are, it's time to take a step back and rethink your attitudes." - Amanda Marcotte

Did you want to address that? Why is she wrong in your opinion assuming that you believe that she is? Or maybe you agree. I do.

Already rebutted. You didn't see it, did you?

I do know it. You don't. And you seem to prefer your ignorance to easily acquired answers. I guess my last post referring to Helen Keller had no impact, either. It's unfathomable to me. Commonplace among the believers, but still unfathomable to me. I would not let you write about me like that without addressing it. Why? Self-respect. You might want to think about that.


Already rebutted. You didn't see it, did you?

No you haven’t, otherwise you would have copy-pasted your answer……………..instead of playing this silly game
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No you haven’t, otherwise you would have copy-pasted your answer……………..instead of playing this silly game
"What's puzzling you is the nature of my game." I told you what it is, but I'm sure you missed it.

It's unfathomable to me that you would think that I would ever fetch and repost those comments for you under any circumstances whatsoever after what I've told you, but once again, who knows how much if any of that entered your consciousness.

I searched "tapping," which is my game. This was written to another poster in May of this year (you are not alone):

"I'm really trying to get through to you, but I need your help. I need you to consider that my words might be valuable to you, and that you could benefit by being more specific following making broad claims, but you don't seem to be aware that that is what I want from you, or you are uninterested. Either way, an explicit statement affirming your position would be helpful - either you don't understand what is being requested, you were unaware anything was being requested, or you are aware and understand but choose to not cooperate. This is what I call tapping the glass - experimenting with language trying to get through to others. I'm looking to see if there are any words I can write that will lead to you understanding me and trying to cooperate (I do not assume that you are trolling or being deliberately obstinate), or explaining why you won't. So far, I can't."

Here's another from April, 2023, this time written to a kindred spirit about this phenomenon:

"I would love to be able to help whomever I am answering, but I understand that I don't have much impact there. Two great passions for me are trying to understand how other minds that are different from mine process information, and analyzing arguments. That's what I call the lab part, where interactions are like tapping the glass to see what they elicit. I think that there is benefit to critical thinkers, who learn from one another. I call that the lecture part of the course."

I explained to you that when you made it clear that you had no intention of working with me on mutually agreeable terms, that you wouldn't make the least effort to find those posts or to give more comprehensive answers according toa template I provided, that you will continue ignoring pleas to provide even a scintilla of the information I requested from you about why you make the choices you do and see you continue as before preaching without listening, that you went from the lecture to the lab section. You go from being somebody who might have something interesting to say or think about (lecture) to somebody to study (lab). I don't think you understood that then or now.

And what is this phenomenon that I keep encountering here on RF? It certainly can't be by design, as it cripples your ethos. I doubt that you want to be viewed as somebody who can't seem to understand anything written to him. I would love to know your reaction to reading these words, but I'd need your cooperation for that, and cooperation is something you can't or won't give, even when it would benefit you. But why?
 

Jimmy

I have always existed
It takes no presumptions. It's Hellenism combined with Judaism, originatating at the center of Hellenistic culture.

Hellenistic religion


The apotheosis of rulers also brought the idea of divinity down to earth.

Hellenistic Judaism was a form of Judaism in the ancient world that combined Jewish religious tradition with elements of Greek culture.


The decline of Hellenistic Judaism started in the 2nd century AD, and its causes are still not fully understood. It may be that it was eventually marginalized by, partially absorbed into or became progressively the Koiné-speaking core of Early Christianity centered on Antioch and its traditions, such as the Melkite Catholic Church, and the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch.

Antioch on the Orontes


The city was also the main center of Hellenistic Judaism at the end of the Second Temple period. Antioch was part of the pentarchy and was called "the cradle of Christianity" as a result of its longevity and the pivotal role that it played in the emergence of early Christianity.[5] The Christian New Testament asserts that the name "Christian" first emerged in Antioch.[6]


[5] "The mixture of Roman, Greek, and Jewish elements admirably adapted Antioch for the great part it played in the early history of Christianity. The city was the cradle of the church." — "Antioch," Encyclopaedia Biblica, Vol. I, p. 186


Christianity[edit]
Antioch was a chief center of early Christianity during Roman times.[26] The city had a large population of Jewish origin in a quarter called the Kerateion, and so attracted the earliest missionaries.[27] Evangelized by, among others, Peter himself, according to the tradition upon which the Patriarchate of Antioch[28] still rests its claim for primacy,[29] and later (according to the Acts of the Apostles) by Barnabas and Paul[30][clarification needed], its converts were the first to be called Christians.




In Mark, the source, Jesus just re-does narratives from Kings, Pauls Letters, follows 20 exact points from Romulus, same from Jesus Ben Ananius, Homer and Psams. Verbatim. There is literally no actual Jesus story left that isn't copied.


Savior demigods are Greek. The baptism in the NT is Greek not Jewish. Logos, is Greek, Communal meal is Greek. Cosmopolitinism, individualism, all from Greek mystery religions. Souls, not in OT, in Greek religion. Redeemed souls going to Heaven, not in OT. In Greek religions. It's a Jewish mystery religion. As mythical as any other folk tale.






They don't have "skeptical "presumptions. They do history the same with everything. For the 100th time. See if you can get it this time. Focus.






The Quran is not the word of God, accepted by all humanity, even thought it has witnesses, even though it has original documents. You need evidence to match such a claim.


SAME goes for Mormonism, Moroni gave important updates, in NY. We have original documents. Witnesses. Bahai also has direct contact with God, original documents, witnesses.


You do not believe any of those . You don't believe in Krishna. You need actual evidence to demonstrate beyond any doubt. The Gospels DO NOT have any such thing. The writing is myth. The theology is a trend. The religion it's from is made up from Mesopotamian and Egyptian myth.

NO historian even saw Jesus. One said he investigated and it's a harmless superstition. You choose to throw away an empirical methodology but there is no actual reason to do this. You do it with Jesus, billions do it with Muhammad, billions do it with Krishna, None of you have real evidence or any probability of it being real. This weird game you play with yourself if anything it's just keeping you from discovering truth.


Truth isn't for everyone.


Maybe God likes to play games and inserts himself into a situation where the evidence is so vast that not one historian finds this to be anything but a folk tale. Probably not.








Ehrman, who spends his life working on learning Christianity and the evidence, in original languages has a far far greater chance of being correct than someone who just bought into a belief, reads english rewrites and speaks with other uneducated people who buy into apologetics demonstrated to be wrong. Or who has to invent a bias that you use freely on every other supernatural folk tale





Why, the Gospel does away with presuppositions on page 1 and you still ignore them?


The specific wording of the Gospel titles also suggests that the portion bearing their names was a later addition. The κατα (“according to”) preposition supplements the word ευαγγελιον (“gospel”). This word for “gospel” was implicitly connected with Jesus, meaning that the full title was το ευαγγελιον Ιησου Χριστου (“The Gospel of Jesus Christ”), with the additional preposition κατα (“according to”) used to distinguish specific gospels by their individual names. Before there were multiple gospels written, however, this addition would have been unnecessary. In fact, many scholars argue that the opening line of the Gospel of Mark (1:1) probably functioned as the original title of the text:


The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ…


This original title of Mark can be compared with those of other ancient texts in which the opening lines served as titles. Herodotus’ Histories (1.1), for example, begins with the following line which probably served as the title of the text:


This is the exposition of the history of Herodotus…



A major difference between the Gospel of Mark and Herodotus’ Histories, however, is that opening line of Mark does not name the text’s author, but instead attributes the gospel to Jesus Christ. This title became insufficient, however, when there were multiple “gospels of Jesus” in circulation, and so, the additional κατα (“according to”) formula was used to distinguish specific gospels by their individual names. This circumstance, however, suggests that the names themselves were a later addition, as there would have been no need for such a distinction before multiple gospels were in circulation.


So, in addition to the problem that the Gospel titles do not even explicitly claim authors, we likewise have strong reason to suspect that these named titles were not even affixed to the first manuscript copies. This absence is important, since (as will be discussed under the “External Evidence” section below) the first church fathers who alluded to or quoted passages from the Gospels, for nearly a century after their composition, did so anonymously. Since these sources do not refer to the Gospels by their traditional names, this adds further evidence that the titles bearing those names were not added until a later period (probably in the latter half of the 2nd century CE), after these church fathers were writing.[5] And, if the manuscript titles were added later, and the Gospels themselves were quoted without names, this means that there is no evidence that the Gospels were referred to by their traditional names during the earliest period of their circulation. Instead, the Gospels would have more likely circulated anonymously.





Shows people made stories up about Jesus.
You said the gospels are a myth and made up. I’ll give you that. All religions are a myth and made up imo. The truth as to how we got here and where we are going is so far removed from any religious teachings in a book imo.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I consider Christianity an evolved Hellenist Roman religion. I believe the Gospels evolved from two sources" A simple shorter biography Q, and a compilation of 'Sayings of Jesus' which many do not originate with Jesus. Paul is primarily responsible for Christianity becoming Hellenist and then influenced by Roman beliefs and traditions forming the foundation of the Roman Church.

I believe that educated literate Hellenist Jews and Gentiles of Asia Minor converted by Paul heavily influenced and embellished the final compilation of the gospels. The final compilation of the gospels and letters, some written by Paul show a great deal of knowledge and literacy from the Hellenic perspective,
I agree. The fine details are not as important but I think Goodacre Mark Goodacre's Books (Authored) has made some really strong evidence against Q and puts Mark as the first full story set on Earth.
Some of the sayings are traced back to Rabbi Hillel, one generation before Jesus and probably go back further. But his sayings are very similar:



That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the entire Torah, and the rest is its commentary. Now go and study.


To one who wished to learn the entire Torah on one foot, Shabbat 31a


“Do not judge your friend until you have stood in his place.”13


13.Pirkei Avot 2:4.




The “Seven Rules” he employed—some of which are reminiscent of rules prevailing in Hellenistic schools where Homer was studied and interpreted—were to serve as the basis for more elaborate rules in the 2nd century. Homilies or parables ascribed to Hillel reveal him as a superb pedagogue.






THE SEVEN RULES OF HILLEL*




For example, Yeshua's famous "golden rule": Whatever you would that men should do to you, do you even to them, for this is the Torah and the Prophets. (Matthew 7:12)


This reads very closely with Hillel's famous statement: What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor that is the whole Torah ... (b.Shabbat 31a)


Paul was certainly taught these rules in the School of Hillel by Hillel's own grandson Gamliel. When we examine Paul's writings we will see that they are filled with usages of Hillel's Seven Rules (several examples appear below). It would appear then that the Seven Rules of Hillel are at least part of what Paul was speaking of when he spoke of "rightly dividing the Word of truth."





 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You said the gospels are a myth and made up. I’ll give you that. All religions are a myth and made up imo. The truth as to how we got here and where we are going is so far removed from any religious teachings in a book imo.
Philosophy tries harder to answer these questions. Still no answer. But Materialism and Idealism pro/con arguments lead to some interesting insights.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I agree. The fine details are not as important but I think Goodacre Mark Goodacre's Books (Authored) has made some really strong evidence against Q and puts Mark as the first full story set on Earth.
Some of the sayings are traced back to Rabbi Hillel, one generation before Jesus and probably go back further. But his sayings are very similar:



That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the entire Torah, and the rest is its commentary. Now go and study.


To one who wished to learn the entire Torah on one foot, Shabbat 31a


“Do not judge your friend until you have stood in his place.”13


13.Pirkei Avot 2:4.




The “Seven Rules” he employed—some of which are reminiscent of rules prevailing in Hellenistic schools where Homer was studied and interpreted—were to serve as the basis for more elaborate rules in the 2nd century. Homilies or parables ascribed to Hillel reveal him as a superb pedagogue.






THE SEVEN RULES OF HILLEL*




For example, Yeshua's famous "golden rule": Whatever you would that men should do to you, do you even to them, for this is the Torah and the Prophets. (Matthew 7:12)


This reads very closely with Hillel's famous statement: What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor that is the whole Torah ... (b.Shabbat 31a)


Paul was certainly taught these rules in the School of Hillel by Hillel's own grandson Gamliel. When we examine Paul's writings we will see that they are filled with usages of Hillel's Seven Rules (several examples appear below). It would appear then that the Seven Rules of Hillel are at least part of what Paul was speaking of when he spoke of "rightly dividing the Word of truth."





At times Jesus used existing truths in his presentation. He drew from Hebrew scripture as part of his teaching.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Yes, your Atheist preaching is preaching! You have faith in a Godless universe, you cant prove it, so Atheism is a form of religious faith.
This is a red herring. Big time.
Atheists don't believe in a theistic God, in this case Yahweh. They don't claim there is no God, that is your strawman. The current stories about Gods look to be fiction. Just like if we lived in ancient Greece and said "I'm just not buying this Zeus stuff...", no different. In fact Yahweh and Jesus are no different. Judaism mixed with Greco-Roman theology, not buying that either.

No faith is needed to disbelieve Zeus. Same with Yahweh. Is there some God out there somewhere who doesn't present as a theism, maybe? But theism is a fail. Faith in a godless universe isn't required because no one is claiming there are no gods. There is no Zeus, no Osirus, no Yahweh, no Jesus.

As for not proving it, that is the The unfalsifiability fallacy. You cannot prove Santa Clause is untrue. You can just demonstrate the lack of evidence and the creation of stories that led to his tale. Same with Jesus.






Like people saw 9-11 happen but believe that the government conspired to blow up the WTC and Pentagon as a reason to start a war. People can believe things that are too difficult to accept, like one of their pop stars dying.

The spirit of truth within me validates the resurrection of Jesus 2000 years ago. I believed long before I ever read the Gospels.
Great and the spirit of truth in others validates the government blew up the WTC.
The spirit of truth in others validates Elvis is still alive.
The spirit of truth in others validates the Quran is the true word of God.
The spirit of truth in others validates the Mormon Bible is the true correct Bible.
The spirit of truth in others validates Christianity is a Greek, pagan creation and Judaism is the only true religion.
The spirit of truth in others validates Hinduism and a personal relationship with Krishna.


Looks like the spirit of truth is a bunch of B.S. and subject to cognitive bias, and re-enforces beliefs you already accepted and isn't reliable at all. The spirit of truth in science doesn't give endless laws of thermodynamics, periodic tables or fundamental forces. It doesn't give multiple versions of addition. Just the one.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You keep repeating that straw man even after I corrected you multiple times,

1 Not extraordinary: a random guy concluded that Maybe Elvis didn’t died, because he saw someone that looks like Elvis,

2 Extraordinary: Elvis’s brother (+many other close relatives) concluded that Elvis resurrected because they saw someone that looks like Elvis, to the point of being sure beyond reasonable doubt , and even being willing to die.

If you want to argue that James and the apostles didn’t saw anything, then you have a whole different hypothesis, where the Elvis analogy becomes irrelevant.

so please share and develope that hypotheis
They saw Jesus in a 100% fictive myth where they also cast out many devils, he chatted with Moses and Elijah and then a voice came out of a cloud saying, "This is my beloved Son"..., people cast out devils in Jesus name, followers of Christ - speak in tongues, take up serpents, drink poisons without harm, and cure the sick by touching them. Jesus also appeared in a different form, like a shapeshifter.

Written by an anonymous person, who wasn't an eyewitness but who obviously studies historical fiction at the Greek school and was a high level fiction author and knew the material well he would be drawing from.
There are zero signs of any history, historical method or any attempts at demonstrating this was any type of history.


By your standards the Quran is just as true, the Mormon Bible is just as true and even JW is completely real. As are all religions.

There is no actual evidence anyone in the story was willing to die. But hearing a story and buying into it is all it takes in this era. Martyrdom in Judaism was already huge. Anyone who heard the Christian story and bought it would be prepared to die. Whatever it was? We do not know the first canon and what it said. The current canon is a response canon to the Marcionite.

Being willing to die for Judaism or a Hellenized version doesn't make it real.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Thats your unsupported speculation and conjecture based on your anti-religious bias. If someone were going to perpetuate a written fraud then they would have done a much better job than the gospels.
You couldn't be more wrong. Mark is a masterpiece of fiction, he uses layers of parables, triadic ring structure, chiasmus, overlapping cycles, parallels to the Jesus Ben Ananias, Romulus, hero narrative, Homer, and rewrites many OT narratives with Jesus as the main character.
He even uses Psalms in the crucifixion narrative, "my God my God why have you ...." and
Mark 15.24: “They part his garments among them, casting lots upon them.”

Psalm 22:18: “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon them.”

Mark 15.29-31: “And those who passed by blasphemed him, shaking their heads and saying, ‘…Save yourself…’ and mocked him, saying ‘He who saved others cannot save himself!’ ”

Psalm 22.7-8: “All those who see me mock me and give me lip, shaking their head, saying ‘He expected the lord to protect him, so let the lord save him if he likes.’ ”

Mark 15.34: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Psalm 22.1: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

On top of these links, Mark also appears to have used Psalm 69, Amos 8.9, and some elements of Isaiah 53, Zechariah 9-14, and Wisdom 2 as sources for his narratives. So we can see yet a few more elements of myth in the latter part of this Gospel, with Mark using other scriptural sources as needed for his story, whether to “fulfill” what he believed to be prophecy or for some other reason.


There are so many hints that Mark is writing historical fiction it's amazing. The Yom Kippur/Passover allegory with Jesus and Barrabas (one is set free and one is killed for the sins of Israel) is brilliant. Too many examples of literary devices, cycles, and so on, to mention. It's high level Greek writing, similar to the Romulus story, Homer and more. The sea travel has all sorts of ring structure.

Even the women finding the body is part of Mark's theme running through his work that the least shall be first. A reversal of expectation.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
At times Jesus used existing truths in his presentation. He drew from Hebrew scripture as part of his teaching.
At times Mark had his main character use Jewish wisdom currently being taught by Rabbi Hillel and others.

Or there was an actual human Rabbi Jesus later mythicized into a savior demigod. Either way, the folk tales are fiction.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
If you had the ability to discern spiritual truth then those truths could be shared with you, but for now the unhatched egg of your human ego is simply incapable of perceiving truth.
A Hellenistic myth coming from a typical Near Eastern religion isn't exactly "spiritual truth". Demigods, devils, posessions, magic blood sacrifices, hell, a final battle between God and the devil? This is Lord of the Rings level storytelling. Nothing to do with spirituality.

Holding on to obvious made up folk tales and syncretic stories of deities so hard you put down others as egotistical and unable to perceive "spiritual truth" because they don't buy into your favorite legend is truly the biggest ego move here.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
You couldn't be more wrong. Mark is a masterpiece of fiction, he uses layers of parables, triadic ring structure, chiasmus, overlapping cycles, parallels to the Jesus Ben Ananias, Romulus, hero narrative, Homer, and rewrites many OT narratives with Jesus as the main character.
He even uses Psalms in the crucifixion narrative, "my God my God why have you ...." and
Mark 15.24: “They part his garments among them, casting lots upon them.”

Psalm 22:18: “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon them.”

Mark 15.29-31: “And those who passed by blasphemed him, shaking their heads and saying, ‘…Save yourself…’ and mocked him, saying ‘He who saved others cannot save himself!’ ”

Psalm 22.7-8: “All those who see me mock me and give me lip, shaking their head, saying ‘He expected the lord to protect him, so let the lord save him if he likes.’ ”

Mark 15.34: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Psalm 22.1: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

On top of these links, Mark also appears to have used Psalm 69, Amos 8.9, and some elements of Isaiah 53, Zechariah 9-14, and Wisdom 2 as sources for his narratives. So we can see yet a few more elements of myth in the latter part of this Gospel, with Mark using other scriptural sources as needed for his story, whether to “fulfill” what he believed to be prophecy or for some other reason.


There are so many hints that Mark is writing historical fiction it's amazing. The Yom Kippur/Passover allegory with Jesus and Barrabas (one is set free and one is killed for the sins of Israel) is brilliant. Too many examples of literary devices, cycles, and so on, to mention. It's high level Greek writing, similar to the Romulus story, Homer and more. The sea travel has all sorts of ring structure.

Even the women finding the body is part of Mark's theme running through his work that the least shall be first. A reversal of expectation.
1. The Gospel by Mark. John Mark wrote the earliest (excepting the notes of Andrew), briefest, and most simple record of Jesus’ life. He presented the Master as a minister, as man among men. Although Mark was a lad lingering about many of the scenes which he depicts, his record is in reality the Gospel according to Simon Peter. He was early associated with Peter; later with Paul. Mark wrote this record at the instigation of Peter and on the earnest petition of the church at Rome. Knowing how consistently the Master refused to write out his teachings when on earth and in the flesh, Mark, like the apostles and other leading disciples, was hesitant to put them in writing. But Peter felt the church at Rome required the assistance of such a written narrative, and Mark consented to undertake its preparation. He made many notes before Peter died in a.d. 67, and in accordance with the outline approved by Peter and for the church at Rome, he began his writing soon after Peter’s death. The Gospel was completed near the end of a.d. 68. Mark wrote entirely from his own memory and Peter’s memory. The record has since been considerably changed, numerous passages having been taken out and some later matter added at the end to replace the latter one fifth of the original Gospel, which was lost from the first manuscript before it was ever copied. This record by Mark, in conjunction with Andrew’s and Matthew’s notes, was the written basis of all subsequent Gospel narratives which sought to portray the life and teachings of Jesus.

121:8.4 (1341.5) 2. The Gospel of Matthew. The so-called Gospel according to Matthew is the record of the Master’s life which was written for the edification of Jewish Christians. The author of this record constantly seeks to show in Jesus’ life that much which he did was that “it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.” Matthew’s Gospel portrays Jesus as a son of David, picturing him as showing great respect for the law and the prophets.

121:8.5 (1341.6) The Apostle Matthew did not write this Gospel. It was written by Isador, one of his disciples, who had as a help in his work not only Matthew’s personal remembrance of these events but also a certain record which the latter had made of the sayings of Jesus directly after the crucifixion. This record by Matthew was written in Aramaic; Isador wrote in Greek. There was no intent to deceive in accrediting the production to Matthew. It was the custom in those days for pupils thus to honor their teachers.

121:8.6 (1342.1) Matthew’s original record was edited and added to in a.d. 40 just before he left Jerusalem to engage in evangelistic preaching. It was a private record, the last copy having been destroyed in the burning of a Syrian monastery in a.d. 416.

121:8.7 (1342.2) Isador escaped from Jerusalem in a.d. 70 after the investment of the city by the armies of Titus, taking with him to Pella a copy of Matthew’s notes. In the year 71, while living at Pella, Isador wrote the Gospel according to Matthew. He also had with him the first four fifths of Mark’s narrative.

121:8.8 (1342.3) 3. The Gospel by Luke. Luke, the physician of Antioch in Pisidia, was a gentile convert of Paul, and he wrote quite a different story of the Master’s life. He began to follow Paul and learn of the life and teachings of Jesus in a.d. 47. Luke preserves much of the “grace of the Lord Jesus Christ” in his record as he gathered up these facts from Paul and others. Luke presents the Master as “the friend of publicans and sinners.” He did not formulate his many notes into the Gospel until after Paul’s death. Luke wrote in the year 82 in Achaia. He planned three books dealing with the history of Christ and Christianity but died in a.d.90 just before he finished the second of these works, the “Acts of the Apostles.”

121:8.9 (1342.4) As material for the compilation of his Gospel, Luke first depended upon the story of Jesus’ life as Paul had related it to him. Luke’s Gospel is, therefore, in some ways the Gospel according to Paul. But Luke had other sources of information. He not only interviewed scores of eyewitnesses to the numerous episodes of Jesus’ life which he records, but he also had with him a copy of Mark’s Gospel, that is, the first four fifths, Isador’s narrative, and a brief record made in the year a.d. 78 at Antioch by a believer named Cedes. Luke also had a mutilated and much-edited copy of some notes purported to have been made by the Apostle Andrew.

121:8.10 (1342.5) 4. The Gospel of John. The Gospel according to John relates much of Jesus’ work in Judea and around Jerusalem which is not contained in the other records. This is the so-called Gospel according to John the son of Zebedee, and though John did not write it, he did inspire it. Since its first writing it has several times been edited to make it appear to have been written by John himself. When this record was made, John had the other Gospels, and he saw that much had been omitted; accordingly, in the year a.d. 101 he encouraged his associate, Nathan, a Greek Jew from Caesarea, to begin the writing. John supplied his material from memory and by reference to the three records already in existence. He had no written records of his own. The Epistle known as “First John” was written by John himself as a covering letter for the work which Nathan executed under his direction.

121:8.11 (1342.6) All these writers presented honest pictures of Jesus as they saw, remembered, or had learned of him, and as their concepts of these distant events were affected by their subsequent espousal of Paul’s theology of Christianity. And these records, imperfect as they are, have been sufficient to change the course of the history of Urantia for almost two thousand years.” UB 1955
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
At times Mark had his main character use Jewish wisdom currently being taught by Rabbi Hillel and others.

Or there was an actual human Rabbi Jesus later mythicized into a savior demigod. Either way, the folk tales are fiction.
Wishful thinking by an anti-Christ. The simplest child like faith is all that is required.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The evidence that these appearances where real are:

1 at least some are multiple attested in other sources

These are CLAIMS

2 the creed is early, dated within 2 years after the crucifixion. (not enough time to claim myth or legend)

I literally gave you an example where a false story concerning a non-event arose within TWO DAYS after the supposed facts.

3 it explains why Paul and James where converted, and why the apostles had more faith (trust) in Jesus than ever before

We have examples today where people convert to any number of religions due to "miraculous" experiences that you yourself don't even believe because you are not a hindu, a muslim, a scientologist, etc.

4 it explains the fact that the apostles honestly and sincerely believed in the resurrection

All followers of all religions believe honestly and sincerely. That in no way means that their reasoning is accurate or that their reasons for believing are valid or that their conclusions from experiences that made them believe are accurate.

5 this was written within 20 years after the crucifixion, the witnesses where still alive , paul was in a position to know that really happened. And skeptics where is a position to refute Paul’s claims.

You can go an talk to alien abductees, big foot spotters and people who claim to have seen Elvis today.
Claims remain mere claims, regardless of when they are made.

6 it explains the flourishment of the Christian movement .

Every religion flourished at some point in time. Scientology went from 0 members to millions in a few decades.
Religions obviously don't require valid / accurate claims or reasons to flourish.


Literally NONE of your 6 points makes this story believable or even plausible. NONE.


Now, I understand that you are a natrualists and that resurrection are impossible (or highly unlikely) under your own philosophical view………….. but why should I or anyone else grant naturalism? Can you show that naturalism is true beyond reasonable doubt?

If you don’t show that naturalism is true beyond reasonable doubt, then you have to consider seriously the possibility of events that defy natural laws
Don't change the topic.
First of all, nobody here claimed to be a naturalist in the dogmatic sense you are trying to pin us on.
Secondly, the topic is the resurrection, so perhaps stick to trying to build a valid case for that supposed event.
 
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